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I've been thinking about the knowledge skills for some time. Here's some homebrews I'd like some feedback on:
OVERALL GOAL #1: TRIMMING KNOWLEDGE [ARCANA]
It's got too much going for it, honestly, and needs some wind knocked out of its sails. Let's start with the following:
OVERALL GOAL #2: DIVERSIFYING MONSTER ID ROLLS
Each monster has only one knowledge roll associated with it. This is kinda folly, considering that some monsters, such as devils, would be extensively researched not only by 'planar' scholars but also by religious authorities such as paladin. Rather silly for a class that focuses on killing these things lacks the basic knowledge about them, no?
OVERALL GOAL #3: MAKE SENSE
New Knowledge Skill: Knowledge [Occult]
Occult adventures introduced what is basically a 'new' branch of magic: occult magic. It has a lot of differences, down to how it's cast. It's likely that it uses an entirely different method and language from that which traditional arcane scholars like wizards would use, meaning you can't rely on your 'Beginners Guide to Prestidigitation' book for help in deciphering what that upside-down pentagram with an eyeball in the middle of it means. A whole new knowledge would be needed, one that focuses on recognizing much subtler signs.
Furthermore, I kinda found it weird over time how aberrations and knowledge [dungeoneering] grew further and further apart. It used to be the go-to because most aberrations came from, well, underground. Now, it covers extraterrestrial lifeforms and creatures that are just... not quite a fit for the dimension they're in. So, knowledge [occult] would make more sense as a home. This takes a little power away from [dungeoneering], but we'll give it back some love later.
Knowledge [occult] could also be used to identify creatures with the incorporeal type, since these too are a major staple of 'just beyond the veil of reality'. Things relating to obscure cults worshiping unimaginable deities, obscure rituals, and other non-traditional venues of magic would find home here. Knowledge [occult] won't intrude on arcana's ability to identify magic items, though. It's mostly about the obscure, the weird, and the just plain wrong, and magic items - save, maybe, those with particular ties to the aforementioned things - would be too common to fall into it.
Diversifying monster ID rolls and realigning current skills
Knowledge [religion]: Identifies devils, demons, daemons, angels, archons, agathions, azatas, psychopomps, and any other creature that is associated directly to a god (I.E. they are not worshippers, but directly involved with these beings). This, admittedly, puts a huge boost to religion, but I feel in world like Golarion where the gods are such a massive driving force, putting it up there with arcana as a 'mega knowledge' skill is pretty deserving. Besides, it still can't identify all outsiders, so planes still gets some love.
Knowledge [geography]: Needs love, I feel, specifically in that geography is defined as
the study of the physical features of the earth and its atmosphere, and of human activity as it affects and is affected by these, including the distribution of populations and resources, land use, and industries.
All of the above pretty much cover the entirety of human(oid) society. This sounds a lot like knowledge [local], so much so that I feel the two could be merged. In fact, let's do that: local and geography are now one and the same. This'll help balance out that nasty knowledge tree bloat from adding [occult] to the list. And geography over local because... well, local sounds more like you know about what Mrs. Pratchet was doing with your neighbor's husband last night. Gossip has its place, mind you, but honestly, in a game it's a lot more important and interesting for players to discover such snippets of intrigue than to just suddenly go 'oh, yeah, I heard about that'. More fitting for investigation using the diplomacy skill, really. Anything else? Can go into knowledge [history], if it's not concurrent.
Knowledge [history]: Honestly, a terribly unloved skill in a game where ancient ruins are some of the most prime locations for adventure, and the whole point of the Pathfinder Society. I think this knowledge can be used to identify the following:
1) Monsters or NPCs who are famous for past deeds, be they alive or not. Could coincide with knowledge [geography] if they're still lively and active. They usually have class levels, and tales of their exploits are much more informative than just going off what their species is. They're not garden variety beings after all!
2) Monsters associated solely and primarily by now-dead cultures. This is probably most subject to DM discretion, but a good example would be the sinspawn, created by ancient Thassilon. Another would be Thassilonian Sentinels, but... well, that is made redundant by the next bullet point.
3) Magical and clockwork constructs (but not robots). These have been around so long and were such an integral part of so many cultures - be it protecting, building, or destroying - that it's hard to imagine them NOT being deeply studied by historians. Constructs can be ID'd but not crafted using history.
Lastly, we're going to tuck knowledge [nobility] into history. Nobility is what it is because of the deeds of their predecessors. We'll say that you can identify contemporary nobles and what they lord over with [geography] but you won't know what the significance of their houses, their crest, or anything else without knowledge [history]. Alternatively? Leave that to research and other 'scholarly' adventures, most likely involving cat suits. Makes the most sense to me.
Dungeoneering: Hoo, boy. This one's a doozy. This one we're going to both expand AND snip at the same time. We already trimmed aberrations out of it, but there's still a reason they were here. As such, we're going to say that dungeoneering is going to cover identifying any monster that dwells primarily underground, from moles to neothelids. It's also definitely the go-to when it comes to navigating caverns. I'd be willing to go the extra mile and say it substitutes [geography] as far as determining the culture, cities, and peoples of the Darklands. It's going to be even more of an absolute must for underground adventures, but outside of it, it's going to be sporadic at best. If it wasn't before, I'd also add it should be used for identifying minerals, precious metals, gems, etc.
Apologies for the long post!
Well as mentioned, knowledge [dungeoneering] covers pretty much all underground races, so something like a roper would be either occult or dungeoneering. This cross-interest in studies is part of the reason monsters should be identifiable by more than one knowledge skill.
Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
The above are what the skill says it covers.
Below are the skill checks.Identify auras while using detect magic
Arcana 15 + spell level
Identify a spell effect that is in place
Arcana 20 + spell level
Identify materials manufactured by magic
Arcana 20 + spell level
Identify a spell that just targeted you
Arcana 25 + spell level
Identify the spells cast using a specific material component
Arcana 20
The above checks have nothing to do with what Arcana says it covers. To me it seems more like the checks for Spellcraft. So move them there.
I was surprised Occult Adventures didn't have a Knowledge (occult) when
A) Occult lore is largely explored in the core rules and setting, and would feel inappropriate just to shoehorn into Knowledge (arcana) when that skill already does a lot.
B) Divine and arcane spellcasting have their own knowledge skills.
I like most of this. Generally, the unloved know knowledge skills come into their own with certain GMs and certain campaigns. Sometimes a GM just needs to loosten up. Let the player determine something with a good roll, even if the skill isn't 100% appropriate by the rule book. Even if it's not the exact info the player hoped for, it might take the game to a new place. The game is meant to be creative, not competitive.
Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)The above are what the skill says it covers.
Below are the skill checks.The above checks have nothing to do with what Arcana says it covers. To me it seems more like the checks for Spellcraft. So move them there.Identify auras while using detect magic
Arcana 15 + spell level
Identify a spell effect that is in place
Arcana 20 + spell level
Identify materials manufactured by magic
Arcana 20 + spell level
Identify a spell that just targeted you
Arcana 25 + spell level
Identify the spells cast using a specific material component
Arcana 20
Good suggestion. Delving more into it, I'd be willing to overlap a couple of those... though some rituals, materials, etc. might be created through divine or esoteric means, which means [religion] and [occult] would be fitting overlaps instead. Remember: cross-disciplinary knowledge checks are a strong goal with this idea.
I need a Knowlege: knowlege to know what check to make as it is.
Seriously, when was the last time you rolled knowlege geography?
Seriously, when was the last time you rolled knowlege geography?
Exactly my point. Got a severe imbalance.
And hell, if you thought geography was bad, look at history. Or the worst offender yet: nobility
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Gonna do a little streamlined breakdown with peoples' recommendations taken into consideration.
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Nature, Planes, and Engineering stay the same. They cover what they need to nicely.
Arcana
1) No longer identifies spellwork, spell effects, etc. These have been moved to spellcraft checks.
2) No longer identifies anything that has to do with non-arcane magic.
3) Still IDs dragons, constructs, and magical beasts.
Dungeoneering
1) No longer identifies aberrations. Instead identifies underground creatures.
2) Used instead of knowledge [geography] when dealing with underground civilizations and regions.
3) Identifies minerals, non-magical metals, and other natural underground resources and hazards.
Geography
1) Replaces local and nobility. Humanoids, culture, industry, regions, laws, current rulers and authorities, celebrities, etc. all covered by it.
2) Used to identify humanoids.
History
1) Used to identify the strengths and weaknesses of historical figures, monsters associated with ancient civilizations, and magical/clockwork constructs.
2) Takes up nobility as far as needing to know more about the noble houses' pasts.
Occult
New skill that identifies aberrations, strange rituals, bizarre and obscure cults and practices, and matters regarding psychic magic.
Class skill for: bards, clerics, wizards, oracles, witches, shaman, warpriests, arcanists, investigators, all occult classes (except kineticists)
Religion
1) Identifies outsiders closely associated with gods.
2) No longer identifies obscure religious practices*, such as Old God worship. This is relegated to knowledge [occult].
*NOTE: As a general rule of thumb, 'obscure religious practice' generally refers to a) none of the core or secondary gods in Golarion, b) rituals performed by isolated communities, and/or c) entities outside of the general knowledge of the population or who do not actually possess divine power.
Why not put condtructs and clockwork under engineering, or at least have them under more than one skill?
Also, as far as underground creatures go would that include dwarves, kobolds, goblins, orcs, etc who live underground?
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I like most of this. Generally, the unloved know knowledge skills come into their own with certain GMs and certain campaigns. Sometimes a GM just needs to loosten up. Let the player determine something with a good roll, even if the skill isn't 100% appropriate by the rule book. Even if it's not the exact info the player hoped for, it might take the game to a new place. The game is meant to be creative, not competitive.
I run Knowledge checks where most Knowledge skills can apply to a subject, but each one will give you different information. For example, let's say a player wants to know what their character knows about a runelord.
Knowledge (history) would reveal who they are, what era the runelord lived, the general history of their tenure, the impact their presence on history, etc.
Knowledge (arcana) would reveal details about their career as a spellcaster, what magical achievements they made, what spells they preferred, etc.
Knowledge (nobility) would reveal details about their lineage, political intrigue, etc.
Knowledge (geography) would tell details about the geolography of where they lived, how it impacted their life, and perhaps where the runelord's kingdom is located today.
Knowledge (local) would reveal the runelord's impact on local cultures, the demographics of their kingdom, and rumors/opinions that modern people have about the runelord.
Knowledge (religion) would reveal what religions the runelord was involved with, who he worshipped, who he despised, perhaps hints on their alignment, whether or not he was a divine spellcaster, how he used undead minions, etc.
Knowledge (martial), a knowledge I allow in my campaign, would reveal the nature of their military career (if any), what weapons the runelord preferred, and military tactics their army used.
Knowledge (planes) would reveal the runelord's impact on other planes of existance, whether or not they had any relationship with planar creatures, whether they traveled to other planes often, and what outsiders they binded during their career.
Exactly!
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I need a Knowlege: knowlege to know what check to make as it is.
Seriously, when was the last time you rolled knowlege geography?
I ran the Moonscar module, and it took the players nearly two months to figure out they were on the moon. None of them had Knowledge (geography), which is the skill for astral bodies. The party spent the whole adventure thinking they were on another planet, especially as I had the bad guys disguise themselves as lashunta. I gave tons of descriptive sensory details, but they didn't figure it out. This plagued the magus so much that after the adventure when she leveled up, she spent all her skill points to max out Knowledge (geography) so she could finally figure out where they were. Finally with ranks, she rolled her check, I gave her a note, she read it and suddenly blurted out "WE WERE ON THE MOON! WE WERE ON THE ****ING MOON!"
Why not put condtructs and clockwork under engineering, or at least have them under more than one skill?
Constructs are basically big chunks of some material animated by the power of magic. A clay golem, for instance, does not move its arm because of a careful and powerful system of hydraulics, but because magic wills the clay to move. The only thing engineering could tell you is maybe how much it weighs/how dense it is.
There is an argument to be made for clockwork constructs, but they also often have magical properties and magic is involved in their construction. Look at this entry from Inner Sea World Guide:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/clockwork-const ruct-cr-0
You could make an argument about using [planes] or [religion] in their creation, though, depending on whether they used an elemental spirit or a soul.
Still, they ARE tied a lot more to engineering, so I'd say it would reveal any mechanical weakness, such as a clockwork golem's susceptibility to rusting grasp.
Also, as far as underground creatures go would that include dwarves, kobolds, goblins, orcs, etc who live underground?
Yes. All of these creatures still have a very significant presence underground.
I like most of this. Generally, the unloved know knowledge skills come into their own with certain GMs and certain campaigns. Sometimes a GM just needs to loosten up. Let the player determine something with a good roll, even if the skill isn't 100% appropriate by the rule book. Even if it's not the exact info the player hoped for, it might take the game to a new place. The game is meant to be creative, not competitive.I run Knowledge checks where most Knowledge skills can apply to a subject, but each one will give you different information. For example, let's say a player wants to know what their character knows about a runelord.
Knowledge (history) would reveal who they are, what era the runelord lived, the general history of their tenure, the impact their presence on history, etc.
Knowledge (arcana) would reveal details about their career as a spellcaster, what magical achievements they made, what spells they preferred, etc.
Knowledge (nobility) would reveal details about their lineage, political intrigue, etc.
Knowledge (geography) would tell details about the geolography of where they lived, how it impacted their life, and perhaps where the runelord's kingdom is located today.
Knowledge (local) would reveal the runelord's impact on local cultures, the demographics of their kingdom, and rumors/opinions that modern people have about the runelord.
Knowledge (religion) would reveal what religions the runelord was involved with, who he worshipped, who he despised, perhaps hints on their alignment, whether or not he was a divine spellcaster, how he used undead minions, etc.
Knowledge (martial), a knowledge I allow in my campaign, would reveal the nature of their military career (if any), what weapons the runelord preferred, and military tactics their army used.
Knowledge (planes) would reveal the runelord's impact on other planes of existance, whether or not they had any relationship with planar creatures, whether they traveled to other planes often, and...
I can agree with your decision to do this, though the runelords have a LOT of lore stapled into them. They are, after all, the first real major villains. It also helps that they've been thoroughly studied and are famous throughout the whole continent. Gets a little harder with other, less well-known foes.
Also, heh, knowledge [martial] reminds me of the first DND campaign I ever played in. Was a fighter, and I thought knowledge [tactics] was something I could use. I used it maybe once. Having a martial skill might not be a bad idea, though. You could use it when facing enemies to find out a bit about their feats based on their fighting stance, demeanor, etc.
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Knowledge (pathfinder) for legitimized metagaming.
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Think I'm going to go with the following summary for Knowledge (Occult):
Ancient mysteries, aberrations, obscure rituals, paranormal activity, and psychic magic
And I'm thinking for the following classes:
Arcanist, Bard, Inquisitor, Investigator, Medium, Mesmerist, Occultist, Oracle, Psychic, Shaman, Skald, Spiritualist, Summoner, Witch, and Wizard.
Oooo yeah, you're right, inquisitors would know it more than clerics would.
Way I went with it was more flavor wise. Occult classes, well, deal with the occult, except for maybe kineticists. They kinda just do things instinctually. I'd go ahead and make a trait for this, too. Inquisitors would hunt heretics of the faith, which would include aberrations and mad cultists, but now that I think on it, clerics are more concerned with their own faiths faiths (of course, that... One cleric archetype from Horror Adventures would be an exception). Wizards, arcanist, bards, and skalds are just omnidisciplinarians, so they would just get it off the bat.
Anyway, the trait.
Esoteric Fascination: You have always questioned what is real and had a desire to learn about what really lies beneath the veil. +1 to knowledge [occult] and it becomes a class skill.
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You should call that trait Spooky Mulder...
But yeah this skill seems like a wacky mix of Arcana/History/Planes/Religion with a dash of [new] and I really wanted a concrete criteria so that when I look at archetypes and whatnot I have something fast and easy and pre-thought out to go on.
Pretty sure each one of those classes meets that criteria and I didn't miss any (base/core) classes.
I mean honestly it could just as easily be named knowledge [weird sh!t].
Oh, hmm, maybe additionally it can be used to identify incorporeal monsters. These tend to be a staple of occult mystery a lot of the time, too.
@rainzax: Yeah, hard to gauge what SHOULD and SHOULDN'T be in a world full of magic. I generally go with "did it show up in an HP Lovecraft story?"
@My Self (the guy, not, y'know, ME.) How do knowledges stand now? As in with my system or as the game does it? If in the game, well, think about it: Pathfinder first began as just a revamped, streamlined 3.5. Since then, the universe, lore, and other aspects have been expanded far, FAR beyond those, and this is most apparent with the new occult classes, which basically brought in a whole new type of magic besides arcane or divine: psychic. Despite years and years of expansion, Pathfinder has yet to update its core rules regarding knowledge skills in any significant way.
As far as your analysis, well...
What you listed for knowledge [People] pretty much -is- what I've stated for knowledge [geography]. It's just the name is different. I'd keep outsiders strictly as outsiders, though. Geography more or less is an educated peasant's eye view of the surrounding area, from terrain to the people to the settlements and how all of those interact with each other. It could, for instance, tell you that there is a mine built on the north side of Placeholdername Mountain. It could also tell you how much the nearby town needs it to sustain itself.
Planes is pretty damned extensive, though, since it doesn't just cover outsiders loyal to religious forces, but the very fabric of the multiverse. Elementals don't really serve gods, yet they are planar beings, nor do other creatures such as vargouilles. There's also pocket dimensions, planar properties, etc.
Not sure Lore would work. History explains what happened in the past, but arcana is basically magical science, which explains how. A good chunk of history has no real magical aspect to it, such as say an orcish raid on a village, so there isn't enough overlap there for the two to really merge. Besides, it'd get a little confusing for people using Unchained's background skills optional rule, what with there being a Lore skill already.
A good number of constructs use Engineering for construction, but many of them are powered exclusively by magic. Hard to explain why a 500 pound humanoid glass statue is moving around without engines, whirring contraptions, and other such mechanisms.
Occult would deal with obscure stuff, things that hide behind the veil of reality. Constructs are already covered by arcane, and have nothing mysterious about them. Elementals, although extraplanar, do exist in the material and are part of the natural order, existing within the cycle of reality. MAYBE oozes. Maybe.
I'd leave nature as is. It covers what it does fairly well. And think about it: a person who knows a lot about nature might have some inkling on what to do, but they are scholars, not rangers. They lack experience in tracking, hunting, and other essential survival skills beyond just knowing. They haven't honed those. Think about it, a neurosurgeon is worthless if his hands aren't trained for the delicate operations he'll perform.
God, I loved that movie.
There's a large number of ways that skills can be consolidated and/or improved efficiency-wise, it all depends on what your players are comfortable with and what you yourself are willing to work with. Only thing I feel we all unanimously agree on is that knowledge [occult] should be a thing.
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@rainzax: Yeah, hard to gauge what SHOULD and SHOULDN'T be in a world full of magic. I generally go with "did it show up in an HP Lovecraft story?"
Two sessions ago we we like "what knowledge is lycanthropy?" and it took us a couple of minutes to decide upon Nature after looking through the books. But I could see them (also) falling under Occult, for example.
Or even religion since lycanthropy is possibly divine in origin with the demon Lord Jezelda.
I always thought Knowlege: Engineering is redundant with Appraisal, or maybe Appraisal should be Knowlege: Commerce.
And Heal is definitely used more as Knowlege: Medical or Knowlege: Crime Scene Investigation.
Also Knowlege: Local. No one has it unless you are specifically told you need it. Knowlege: Society would probably be a more broad implementation.
Survival should be Knowlege: Boyscouts.
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Well as mentioned, knowledge [dungeoneering] covers pretty much all underground races, so something like a roper would be either occult or dungeoneering. This cross-interest in studies is part of the reason monsters should be identifiable by more than one knowledge skill.
Ideally, multiple knowledge skills should be usable for information on a given topic, just with a different DC if you aren't using the 'best' knowledge for that subject, so that an undead Nightshade, for example, might be 'monster lored' normally with knowledge - religion, but since it's also an extraplanar creature, a knowledge - planes check might also suffice, at a +5 DC.
Now, what skill should one use to identify a fighting style? This would include figuring out if somebody is using an actual Style Feat chain or specialized fighting feat, as well as recognizing more general fighting styles associated with certain military academies, gangs, etc., regardless of what creature type is using them. I asked this before in another thread, and the weak default seemed to be Profession (Soldier), but no strong idea of where to put this seemed to exist.
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Now, what skill should one use to identify a fighting style? This would include figuring out if somebody is using an actual Style Feat chain or specialized fighting feat, as well as recognizing more general fighting styles associated with certain military academies, gangs, etc., regardless of what creature type is using them. I asked this before in another thread, and the weak default seemed to be Profession (Soldier), but no strong idea of where to put this seemed to exist.
That's why I introduced Knowledge (martial)
Knowledge (martial)
New skill. Allows you to identify feats, extraordinary abilities, and classes possessed by a creature in the same manner as identifying creature types and abilities with other Knowledge skills. Knowledge (martial) can also be used to identify armor, weapons, combat tactics, and other military lore. Uses for Path of War’s maneuver system also apply. Monks and any class that receives proficiency in all martial weapons considers Knowledge (martial) as a class skill.
I'd actually place 'style feat chain' and that sort of thing into a Lore skill, if the character really wanted to specialize in that.
I am personally more-or-less completely satisfied with the knowledge skills as-is, in part because what I allow people to roll depends in large part on what the angle of their question is, much like Cyrad's exploration above. Want to see if you know about the background of a military school? Roll KS: History. How it's influenced the ebb and flow of the great houses by way of the battles its students have participated in? Roll KS: Nobility. So on and so forth.
I would agree that the Lore background skill can be very useful if properly applied. Lore [Runelords], for instance, in a campaign that focuses on these titular villains. 'Course you could always be a little weird and go for something like... lore [llamas].
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... don't talk about the frakking llamas, dammit, they have bionic hearing!!
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Appraisal should be Knowlege: Commerce.
A skill in bad need of help. I'm not much a fan of the name you suggest, but the skill could definitely use some additional uses under its umbrella. I'd like to see a way to improve your buying or selling price (not so great as to invite exploitation) and a way to identify magic items without a feat or spell. I'm want to push Wisdom as the associated ability score to separate it from purely academic skills, but Wisdom doesn't neccessarily make sense for all applications.
Only thing I feel we all unanimously agree on is that knowledge [occult] should be a thing.
I don't think it should. The description of knowledge(occult) as described by most people here feels too hodgepodge and essentially is just stripping random bits from arcana, dungeoneering, planes and religion. The end result is just knowledge(random stuff) without much connection between its various parts other than that they're 'kind of weird' or something.
I need a Knowlege: knowlege to know what check to make as it is.
Seriously, when was the last time you rolled knowlege geography?
I'm running Jade Regent, which has the PCs on the move through Varisia (and eventually, far beyond). I've been asking for geography, history, & local rolls on a regular basis. After giving me a few shocked looks, the players have gotten the idea!
PS: I've implemented a slight variation on the Gaining Background Skills option in Pathfinder Unchained. I added Climb, Knowledge (local), Ride, and Swim to the list of qualified skills, but removed Perform and Sleight-of-Hand as too class-oriented.
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Appraisal should be Knowlege: Commerce.A skill in bad need of help. I'm not much a fan of the name you suggest, but the skill could definitely use some additional uses under its umbrella. I'd like to see a way to improve your buying or selling price (not so great as to invite exploitation) and a way to identify magic items without a feat or spell. I'm want to push Wisdom as the associated ability score to separate it from purely academic skills, but Wisdom doesn't neccessarily make sense for all applications.
I allow this skill to identify a person's social class as defined in the CRB - destitute, poor, average, wealthy, extravagant - and if that succeeds, the general location of their highest-value item (hip, finger, backpack etc).
It is thus a staple skill for cutpurses and thugs.
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Now, what skill should one use to identify a fighting style? This would include figuring out if somebody is using an actual Style Feat chain or specialized fighting feat, as well as recognizing more general fighting styles associated with certain military academies, gangs, etc., regardless of what creature type is using them. I asked this before in another thread, and the weak default seemed to be Profession (Soldier), but no strong idea of where to put this seemed to exist.
That's why I introduced Knowledge (martial)
Knowledge (martial)
New skill. Allows you to identify feats, extraordinary abilities, and classes possessed by a creature in the same manner as identifying creature types and abilities with other Knowledge skills. Knowledge (martial) can also be used to identify armor, weapons, combat tactics, and other military lore. Uses for Path of War’s maneuver system also apply. Monks and any class that receives proficiency in all martial weapons considers Knowledge (martial) as a class skill.
Building on this idea, though it never took off because my players didn't like Path of War (and that's Okay - no need to leap in and defend it!), I considered mirroring the counterspell rules to allow a "counterfeat" combat action. Never got to test it though.
Anybody do anything like this? How does it work for you?
For my 2 cp, I don't see any reason to dump (geography), (history), or (local) -- or to change them very much. Although the last badly needs a rebranding expert. I think I'm going to try knowledge (locals).
To me, (history) is what it sounds like; it covers most inquiries about the past. And my goodness, adventurers should constantly be asking questions about the past! Whether of an odd but non-magical thing they've found or about the reputation of a town they're going to for corruption, it should be useful as is.
While (geography) & (locals) are both present-day, the first uses a much broader brush. In other words, that there is a town down that road & what sort of humanoid races reside there would be (geography). Even that the town is famous for having a casino. Certainly, that the town has a casino because it's a port!
OTOH, (locals) is very narrow-brush. I've limited (locals) to cover “laws, customs, and significant inhabitants or locations.” With a successful check, you'll know where in town to look to find the casino. Or if the inhabitants have made littering illegal or have an odd custom about what to do with anything that falls on the street, you'll know about it. If they've appointed a constable who will likely bustle up to you to collect a fine even though littering isn't illegal, you'll know that with (local), too -- and with a high enough roll, you'll know what his name is and who owns his gambling debts!
That said, the idea I've seen here of folding (nobility) into (locals) or (history) makes a whole lot of sense.
Edits: Text editing to reduce volume. And...
EtA: I just looked up the Core definition of my new knowledge (locals). I've stripped out...
> "legends," which IMHO should be under (history).
> "humanoids," which is far too broad for my sense of the skill.
Now that I'm bothering to think about where to put humanoids in general, (nature) is to me the obvious choice.
But then what about monstrous humanoids? I think (dungeoneering) should be about "dangerous things" from this plane. Knowledge about traps included -- although that's very different from spotting one or knowing how to deactivate it! But I like having (dungeoneering) cover monstrous humanoids and aberrations both.
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Unless you pay a specific setting, knowledge (occult) is going to be some sort of weird combination. From what I figure, it should probably have knowledge about:
-Magical rituals
-Magical artifacts
-Psychic casting
-The nature of auras/the soul
-Magical afflictions, particularly...
- -Curses
- -Lycanthropy
- -Possession
-Creatures from other planes/states of existence, specifically...
- -The dead
- -The undead
- -Aligned outsiders
- -Great Old Ones, Outer Gods, and their servitors
- -Summoning or contacting these creatures
-Creatures created through arcane means, such as...
- -Undead
- -Golems (Maybe)
- -Other Constructs (Maybe)
- -Maybe oozes or specific aberrations if that's how your setting works.Obviously, some of these would need to be axed, since there's a decent amount of overlap with other skills. Some stuff would need to be pushed/folded in, which is a consequence of streamlining this sort of system. Lift Gates/Bend Bars isn't anywhere on your character sheet, right?
I'm with the people who aren't convinced about (occult). That said, I play classic Pathfinder. I didn't like the material in Occult Adventures & I never enjoyed Lovecraft. I like fantasy and sf. So maybe I can't see what you see here -- which would be all right. OTOH, the little I know about a lovecraftian story is that the Investigator should be the optimal class. Why strip it of essential function by wrapping up all of that long, skill-point-eating list into one skill?
For me, (arcana) already handles constructs, and would do fine for some of what you mentioned if it doesn't handle them already:
-Magical rituals
-Psychic casting (if your game has it)
-The nature of auras/the soul (wizards & clerics might both answer, differently)
-Magical afflictions, particularly...
- -Curses (if they're not divinely created)
- -Lycanthropy (although my dungeoneering would work, too)
- -Possession
And as I said, I don't think there's value in a portmanteau skill for the rest.
OTOH, I really, really like the suggestion of moving identifying spell or item properties from (arcana) to Spellcraft. It would save me a lot of page-flipping! Although I don't want to shortchange (arcana) as the go-to for knowledge of what's possible w/ magic. "Yes, there is a spell that can do that, but it would be 5th level. It's called xyz."
...EtA: On second thought, two of the listed checks for knowledge (arcana) actually do fit my sense of the skill as theoretical knowledge of the field:
.......Identify materials manufactured by magic (Arcana 20 + spell level)
.......Identify the spells cast using a specific material component (Arcana 20)
Still, that means something else should go in. Besides curses, lycanthropy & possession. Luckily, there's a parallel case here for inspiration. I propose that (arcana) identifies spell-casting "feats, extraordinary abilities, and classes" the way that Cyrad's knowledge (martial) identifies martial abilities:
Knowledge (martial)
New skill. Allows you to identify feats, extraordinary abilities, and classes possessed by a creature in the same manner as identifying creature types and abilities with other Knowledge skills. Knowledge (martial) can also be used to identify armor, weapons, combat tactics, and other military lore. Uses for Path of War’s maneuver system also apply. Monks and any class that receives proficiency in all martial weapons considers Knowledge (martial) as a class skill.
I love this skill, btw. It's the best reason I've seen for attempting an overhaul of the skill system mid-game. I want it in my game! :-) And I've already paid for adding (martial) by eliminating (nobility).
If I leave outsiders untouched, that leaves just one more skill begging for attention: (engineering). I don't know what to do with it in a game that doesn't have robots or... Well, now that I think of it, we will eventually get somewhere with guns. That's (engineering). <sigh> I suppose I leave it be.
...EtA: :-D My husband & player in my game just finished helping me out by designing an elaborate ferry built by some dwarves, involving a bicycle-type chain wound around a vertical, spoked wheel moved via a differential gearbox connected to a horizontal drivewheel pulled around by mules. And a counter-balanced crane. On each side of the river. I'd better leave (engineering) in!
Matters concerning knowledge [occult] are well founded, and you wouldn't be wrong on many accounts. Hell, as I mentioned before, it could very well be named knowledge [weird sh*t]. As it stands, though? Dungeoneering itself sounds like this, but at the same time, it doesn't make sense. The subject is subterranean geography, after all. But how are you going to know what that alien from outter space is, then, if it's not found underground? And besides, not all of the weird things in the world come from underground, or are native to the underground.
@lily: The personal disinterest in Lovecraftian horror and occultism is certainly something understandable, and in campaigns that don't feature aberrations, interplanetary/interstellar travel, obscure practices, and psychic magic would make knowledge [occult] useless. Yet, the same problem crops up with most others. Knowledge [nature] is going to be crippled in an urban campaign, knowledge [locals] won't help much when you're in another plane, and even knowledge [arcana] becomes useless in a sci-fi high-tech campaign where magic is secondary or even non-existant (something which, admittedly, wouldn't happen even in Numeria as far as the Pathfinder campaign setting is concerned).
I agree that knowledge [martial] is a very nice knowledge skill idea, and I'd love to implement it myself. Even as far as flavor was concerned, my own character, who studied war as much as magic, has been lacking in a way to mechanically express that knowledge of war and tactics.
I propose that (arcana) identifies spell-casting "feats, extraordinary abilities, and classes" the way that Cyrad's knowledge (martial) identifies martial abilities
I am all for this. Anything that can streamline, diversify, and, in general, make the knowledge skills more dynamic is welcome.
Also, some overlap is fine. That way people don't have to deliberate on the issue. 'Does that fit in knowledge arcana or religion?' If it makes enough argumentative sense for them to be either, the answer is 'both'. Or 'either'. Or, as many people have stated, 'it reveals different (but still true) information'. This information could be unique to the skill or just be the same info seen through a different lens.
My pet peeve with the Knowledge skills is that for monster identification you have to make a skill check but you don't know for which skill. That leads to either the GM asking "show me your character sheet and roll" which is clumsy or the player rattling off multiple check results which costs time and is somewhat silly.
So I have removed monster and hazard identification completely from the Knowledge skills, and created a new skill that serves exactly for this purpose. I have called it Ecology, and it works as you can read here, if you are interested.
I have also moved magic item and aura identification from Knowledge (arcane) to Spellcraft, and since I am using the Background Skills system from Pathfinder Unchained, all Knowledge skills are now simply background skills.
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Matters concerning knowledge [occult] are well founded, and you wouldn't be wrong on many accounts. Hell, as I mentioned before, it could very well be named knowledge [weird sh*t]. As it stands, though? Dungeoneering itself sounds like this, but at the same time, it doesn't make sense. The subject is subterranean geography, after all. But how are you going to know what that alien from outter space is, then, if it's not found underground? And besides, not all of the weird things in the world come from underground, or are native to the underground.
Then let's do away with (dungeoneering) altogether in favor of the (occult) that people want. Although I'd prefer the name Knowledge (abnormal) to give the new skill a broader appeal beyond games that focus on the occult as such.
Doing away with (dungeoneering) does mean moving "underground geography" to (geography) or (appraisal), and handling "underground hazards."
>> Determine slope (now geography 15)
>> Determine depth underground (now geography 20)
>> Identify mineral, stone, or metal (now appraisal 10)
"Identify underground hazard" (or any other) becomes:
1> Identify abnormal hazard (abnormal 15 + hazard's CR)
2> Identify magical hazard (arcana 15 + hazard's CR)
3> Identify constructed hazard (engineering 15 + hazard's CR)
4> Identify natural hazard (nature 15 + hazard's CR)
Changing (dungeoneering) to (abnormal) also means redefining (nature) a bit, but I think it's robust enough to handle it. Especially with humanoids flooding in as refugees from the redefined (locals)!
Now, all creatures that are non-magical and "normal" are covered by (nature), but not giant versions or monstrous versions or what-have-you. Natural phenomena not twisted by a sentient agent are also still covered by the skill.
>> Animals/ if non-magical
>> Fey/ if (is there an if here?)
>> Hazards/ if naturally occurring, above- or below-ground
>> Humanoids/ if not augmented or monstrous (moved from "locals")
>> Plants/ if non-sentient, non-magically-blighted, etc.
>> Seasons and cycles/ if in natural order
>> Vermin/ if sized Fine or Diminutive
>> Weather/ if naturally caused
"Determine artificial nature of feature" gets expanded:
1> Determine abnormal nature of feature (nature 20)
2> Determine magical nature of feature (nature 20)
3> Determine artificial nature of feature (nature 20)
Further information, of course, would be available only under the appropriate skill --
(1> abnormal); (2>arcana); (3> engineering).
And ta da! We now can say that all non-magical but abnormal or monstrous creatures native to this plane are now covered by Knowledge (abnormal). This includes any creature that a normal, sensible person would react to with... horror!
Knowledge (abnormal):
>> Aberrations
>> Augmented humanoids (like lycanthropes)
>> Monstrous humanoids (from outer space included)
>> Oozes
>> Sentient plants
>> Vermin/ if sized Tiny or larger (ie, "giant")
And yes, psychic magic & related subjects would find a home here:
>> Auras
>> Chakras
>> Possession
>> Psychic magic
But there's an awful lot that will be encountered in any game that is not precisely "abnormal." (It nonetheless may be considered "occult," one of the reasons I prefer my name for the new skill.)
>> Magical beasts (arcana)
>> Arcane rituals (arcana)
>> Hazards/ constructed (engineering)
>> Cults/ long-dead (history)
>> Legends of monsters imprisoned (history)
>> Experts to consult on bizarre matters (locals)
>> Servitors of a Great Old One (religion)
>> Undead (religion)
Wizards using mysterious symbols & obscure rituals to work dark magic within their traditional schools are still arcane. Long-dead mysteries deserve a historian's attention. Great Old Ones are still demi-gods, after all, and even their native cultists serve invaders from another plane. The undead are still escapees from the plane they were sent to by a goddess. Sure, some of these matters can be approached as multi-disciplinary: A long-dead cult that served a Great Old One with psychic magic could be studied usefully with (history, religion, or abnormal) -- the key is that each student should learn a different piece of the elephant.
As I said, investigators (and arcanists, bards, and others with all the Knowledge skills, for that matter) deserve to earn a high regard in an adventure that deals strongly with such matters.
So what do you all think of my attempt at synthesis? I certainly cannot take much credit here: you all have been very thought-provoking!
What I especially need help on is figuring out what classes should get Knowledge (abnormal), as outlined here, as a class skill.
That's 17 out of 37 with (dungeoneering): 46%.
Of them, I just don't think of Brawlers or Fighters as either concerned with nature & what's counter to it, or the bookish sort who would dabble in odd bits of knowledge. OTOH, it's probably easier to just say "everyone who gets (dungeoneering) as a class skill" than to pick and choose. Especially with new classes coming out.
And yet, I must say that Alchemists, Druids, Occultists, Shamans & Witches seem more appropriate for Knowledge (abnormal) than they were for (dungeoneering). Should I add a few? Did I pick the right group?
If I add these to the (abnormal) list, I'm adding 5 classes, or 14%.
...EtA: If Druids get (abnormal), then Druidic magic could be covered by the skill as well. A lot of it is transformative. It certainly seems odd that they don't get (religion)!
That changes the proportions of those who have (abnormal) as a class skill to those who don't to 60/40. There's still too substantial a number of non-class-skill classes, IMO, to just say "everyone gets it."
Help?!