Knowledge (Martial)


Homebrew and House Rules


I got a few third party products that introduce new Combat Maneuvers. A lot. Because having them all accessible at once can be both unbalancing and annoying book keeping-wise as a house rule I'm introducing the skill Knowledge (Martial). So far these are the rules I came up with using the skill;

Classes with proficiency with all martial weapons are considered to have this skill as a class skill. When you add a rank to Knowledge (Martial) you gain access to a new combat maneuver. You may use this Knowledge check in place of Sense Motive checks against Feints.

What else should Knowledge (Martial) be able to do? I want to make it attractive to martial characters with high INT scores. (especially since the Improved feats for these maneuvers require 13 INT and Combat Expertise.)


Knowledge(martial) used to exist in 3.5 in the ToB(where martial adepts originate). It was used to recognize the maneuvers of foes when they used them, and with a higher DC recognize every martial maneuever known by a foe, and to use martial scripts, which were like scrolls for martial adepts.


MrSin wrote:
Knowledge(martial) used to exist in 3.5 in the ToB(where martial adepts originate). It was used to recognize the maneuvers of foes when they used them, and with a higher DC recognize every martial maneuever known by a foe, and to use martial scripts, which were like scrolls for martial adepts.

I keep hearing about Tome of Battle but I had a hard time understanding the game when I played 3.5. If I'm introducing Knowledge (Martial) should I use Tome of Battle? is it unbalancing? what else does it introduce? could I port over the parts relevant to Knowledge (martial) and ditch the rest?


I have no idea how to judge what your doing right now because I don't plan to purchase those products by DSP. I was just stating what it was used for in 3.5 so you could get an idea about how it could be used.


Other things it could be used for is knowing the names, history, and favored styles of legendary warriors; knowing about important battles; knowing about important or legendary weapons (and other combat equipment); and so forth.


I saw the thing from DSP. I'm wary of it due to me already bloating options with third party material and not really knowing the nature of it.

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of ToB and Amazon has them for $50, more than what I'd pay for 'ideas'. Sadface.


Orthos wrote:
Other things it could be used for is knowing the names, history, and favored styles of legendary warriors; knowing about important battles; knowing about important or legendary weapons (and other combat equipment); and so forth.

Yarr, for that reason it gets mixed with knowledge(local) for some folks. Makes sense for some sort of fighter who likes swords to know about other people with swords so he knows all he can about swords because he really likes swords swords swords.

Malwing wrote:

I saw the thing from DSP. I'm wary of it due to me already bloating options with third party material and not really knowing the nature of it.

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of ToB and Amazon has them for $50, more than what I'd pay for 'ideas'. Sadface.

I understand both of those.


MrSin wrote:
Orthos wrote:
Other things it could be used for is knowing the names, history, and favored styles of legendary warriors; knowing about important battles; knowing about important or legendary weapons (and other combat equipment); and so forth.
Yarr, for that reason it gets mixed with knowledge(local) for some folks. Makes sense for some sort of fighter who likes swords to know about other people with swords so he knows all he can about swords because he really likes swords swords swords.

Welcome to Corneria!


After... finding a copy of Tome of Battle; It seems compatible enough but I'm reluctant on having new classes. Adding all the third party products I own and the new Advanced Class Guide classes that's 54-57 classes total. I guess this would make it an even 60 but I just wanted Knowledge (martial) to do something and in ToB it's tied into the whole maneuver system. My best hope for a simple implementation is to rewrite the stances and maneuvers as combat manuevers.

On the topic of house ruling Knowledge (Martial) I gathered a few ideas.

1) let ranks in the skill count as BAB for the purposes of qualifying for feats.

2) Make an opposed check to counter combat maneuvers.

3) Use it for one against many mass combat rules or quickly resolve combat against mobs of 20+ creatures.

4) Identify classes and the morale/tactics lines printed on NPCs.

5) Gain tactical information to predict enemy strategy.


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I like the military aspects and feel of knowing combat and who's doing what and why. I think that could make awesome roleplay moments and really fit in for martials. Not sure about countering foes or learning an additional maneuver per rank because I don't own any products with maneuvers outside of 3.5 ToB/core pathfinder, but it sounds like you've got a lot on your plate as is.

Orthos wrote:
Welcome to Corneria!

I like swords.


Malwing wrote:
My best hope for a simple implementation is to rewrite the stances and maneuvers as combat manuevers.

I always thought about them as feat ideas, rather then CM. Checkout Kirthfinder.

Malwing wrote:

1) let ranks in the skill count as BAB for the purposes of qualifying for feats.

2) Make an opposed check to counter combat maneuvers.

Just think about how easy is to boost a skill, and how this would affect caster/martial disparity. In other words HELL, NO!

Malwing wrote:

3) Use it for one against many mass combat rules or quickly resolve combat against mobs of 20+ creatures.

4) Identify classes and the morale/tactics lines printed on NPCs.

5) Gain tactical information to predict enemy strategy.

I like these. Interested in details.


necromental wrote:


Malwing wrote:

3) Use it for one against many mass combat rules or quickly resolve combat against mobs of 20+ creatures.

4) Identify classes and the morale/tactics lines printed on NPCs.

5) Gain tactical information to predict enemy strategy.

I like these. Interested in details.

I don't have the person who came up with #3 on hand to explain it but for #4, the logic was that knowledge checks don't really help in regards to humanoids, especially with enemy martial classes and possible tactics you could glean from their stance, common motives ect.

For example; Say you were fighting some bandits. A knowledge (martial) check against their CR+10 would tell you that they're hovering around their leader who is more experienced than the rest. You'll know that they will attack whoever threatens the leader but will also run away if the leader becomes bloodied.

Alternatively for #5 the bandits could be brave and smart and are poised to threaten the caster first because of their formation and classes. With this knowledge you may convince the party to get defensive around the party's caster and make that plan more difficult to achieve.


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Malwing wrote:
I got a few third party products that introduce new Combat Maneuvers. A lot. Because having them all accessible at once can be both unbalancing and annoying book keeping-wise as a house rule I'm introducing the skill Knowledge (Martial).

May I suggest making it a class ability similar to Concentration rather than an additional skill?

That way the classes most likely to need it (warrior types) who have the last amount of skill points in the game are not penalised by having a new 'must have' skill they need to buy.

Base the bonus off a classes BAB rather than a new skill and give them a stat bonus based on Str.

That way as real warrior types level up they get the skills that their increased combat training would naturally give them and they are not charged a precious skill point from their already too small pool.


Gilfalas wrote:

May I suggest making it a class ability similar to Concentration rather than an additional skill?

...

Base the bonus off a classes BAB rather than a new skill and give them a stat bonus based on Str.

Wait, so we replace CMB - with CMB? I LIKE IT!

Verdant Wheel

I am using the DSP Path of War book, which introduces the Knowledge (Martial) skill.

I do not like that the skill overlaps other Knowledge skills (History, Local, Nobility). Removing those functions. I am adding the function of identifying combat feats, same DC and action as for maneuvers.

Instead, I want to encourage non-PoW classes to take it by having it interact with combat feats by introducing a "counterspell" function, but for combat feats and martial maneuvers only. Here is what I got so far:

Counterfeat
You must ready an action to counterfeat. If you can identify the feat as it is being used, you can attempt to counterfeat it. If you have the feat known, you automatically succeed. Otherwise you must then beat your foe with a CMB vs CMD check. Success prevents the foe from using the feat for 1 round.

Countermaneuver
You must ready an action to countermaneuver. If you can identify the maneuver as it is being used, you can attempt to countermaneuver it. If you have the maneuver readied, you automatically succeed if you expend it. Otherwise you must then beat your foe with a CMB vs CMD check, expending a single maneuver for the attempt. Success causes your foe to lose the maneuver, expending it without effect.

thoughts on both uses?

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