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Someone on the PFS subreddit brought up a question asking why people thought the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods weren't legal for PFS and it got me curious. Is there any issue if I were to make a Fighter that worshiped Cthulhu? I know since Cthulhu isn't a legal deity I can't play a Cleric, Inquisitor or any other class/archetype that derives their abilities from their deity, but what about for a class where their choice in deity is purely fluff and not mechanics?
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Further I don't even see why characters in PFS would even have in issue with the guy worshipping a giant space squid. This is the same society that doesn't bat an eye at letting clerics of Asmodeus, Urgoratha, and freaking Rovagug join the party as long as they pinky swear they're not evil.
I suppose it would have to be pinky swear, as the LE clerics of asmodeuous show up as evil when Olystria greets them "hello..." eyes shine with the holy light of sarenrae "..pathfinders.."
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I'm not saying I'm going to make a Cthulhu worshipper, my main characters are followers of Khepri and Ragathiel. I also take to heart the concept that PFS characters are supposed to cooperate with each other, but I might make a character who is a little off balance and maybe has an unhealthy fixation with tentacles, fortunately for characters where deity choice is fluff they aren't required to have an alignment within one step of their deity. A CG character could be crazy enough to think Cthulhu is "helpful"
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It's a meta rule that there's no evil allowed. In universe there is no such rule. In fact, I'm pretty sure certain high ranking NPCs are evil. And that's even before touching on the shady behavior of the Decemvirate..
As for the field agents... the in-universe mechanic that weeds out evil agents is simply the normal bureaucratic processes.
*Asmodean Cleric who's turned evil goes to his performance review*
Venture Captain: Uh, yeah, I'll get to the point. After this business with you burning down the orphanage, I'm not sure you're the right fit with our organization anymore...."
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That's actually a pretty good point. How exactly do the Pathfinders verify that all the various LN/N/CN clerics of *insert evil deity here* are actually not evil? Detect alignment doesn't fly so what's left? Mashing zone of truth till they botch the save and are forced to admit to how many orphanages they torch in their spare time?
Field reports that pathfinders file showing if their party members crossed the line.
The ten also have o..*GERK*
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At some point, I wholly intend to play characters that venerate Ardad Lili and Eiseth. ^_^
I already do. My nagaji enchantment-focused loracle used to pay lip service to Asmodeus, but once she was released from slavery, she went to venerating Ardad Lili, because of course she did.
I'm also working on an inquisitor of Lissala now that that deity's legal, based on the original cult of Lissala from pre-Runelords Thassilon. It'll hopefully be a lot of fun playing him around characters who think the cult of Lissala consists entirely of self-mutilating lunatics.
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So we just touched on this in another thread.
I don't see why if you are a non-divine class why you couldn't worship ANY deity. In fact, I'm not sure what campaign leadership could do about it. If I make my character worship a banned deity or even something that ISN'T a deity at all (banjo the clown?) what exactly can they do to stop it? I wouldn't breaking any rule that I have seen printed.
In fact, to play devil's advocate (pun intended) even if a rule was being broken I still am not sure what could be done. It is one thing to ban where PFS characters can derive their holy power from. I am totally behind that. But those who are suggesting that you PFS leadership are the fictitious character thought police I think will be sadly mistaken when they find they have absolutely no control over what my character has going on in their head. Hell, I might not even have control over that.
Further, I don't even see why it matters. I would go so far as to say that my character stating outright aloud that he worships banjo the clown, Cthulhu or anything else is totally legal. To say otherwise would say we have a set of rules about what characters are allowed to say at a table.
What the hell does it even matter if they aren't getting any direct power from the thing they have decided to worship?
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Respect? Maturity?
The assumption that you're sitting down to a Pathfinder game, taking place in the Pathfinder universe, with other Pathfinder players?
If I'm sitting down to a game, I don't want to hear the player across the table espousing the wonders of their lord and savior, unless that being exists in the Pathfinder universe.
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Right back atcha, Nefreet.
I say that those who wish to step on my fictitious character's private thoughts are the ones being immature and lacking respect. I think that maybe you are assuming that a player couldn't play their character worshiping such a deity responsibly. I declare that there is a greater risk of a player playing their worship of an allowed deity irresponsibly. As another poster pointed out the Pathfinder (in game) leadership doesn't seem to give a care about Asmodeus, Urgoratha, and freaking Rovagug worshippers who are actually receiving divine power from their deities.
Cthulhu totally exists in the Pathfinder universe. So could Banjo the Clown of a Bard wished to make the hand puppet up. Or have you never sat at a table with a player who's character is insane? Kalindlara does a pretty good insane, by the way. ;) She also does a pretty good creepy evil.
If anything, I think your response has entrenched me deeper into my opinion of those opposed just thinking this is badwrongfunnery.
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BNW: Does worship have a specific definition outside of the dictionary definition in Pathfinder? Could you point it out please? It is possible that I may have missed it. Otherwise I'm going pro-dictionary on this one.
edit: I just did a search on pfsrd and found this feat. I'm not going to base an entire argument on it but I would like to point out that this doesn't appear to be the capital "W" Worship that you are referring to. This is the all lower case, don't even have to be a divine class or have any divine abilities to take it sort of requirement. I would submit that this establishes the precedent that one need not even Worship a deity to worship a deity and even gain benefits that a worshipper (not Worshipper) could get.
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The season 8 Pathfinder Society RPG Guild Guide (the document formerly known as Princethe Guide to Organized Play) has a glossary. The word "worship" is defined in that glossary:
Worship: In this context, worship refers to a
relationship held between a PC and a deity where the
PC, in exchange for his dedicated worship, gains a
mechanical benefit (e.g. a cleric’s spells and abilities, a
deity-specific feat or trait, special functions of magical
weapons, or prerequisites for a prestige class). PCs may
only worship one campaign-legal deity and must always
be within one step of their chosen deity’s alignment. See
page 24 for more rules on worshiping a deity and how to
change the deity a PC worships.
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found this feat.
Link to the actual feat so people can see it. Zon-Kuthon.
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Contributor
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I just did a search on pfsrd and found this feat. I'm not going to base an entire argument on it but I would like to point out that this doesn't appear to be the capital "W" Worship that you are referring to. This is the all lower case, don't even have to be a divine class or have any divine abilities to take it sort of requirement. I would submit that this establishes the precedent that one need not even Worship a deity to worship a deity and even gain benefits that a worshipper (not Worshipper) could get.
You may wish to consult a more accurate source.
d20pfsrd can't be trusted with anything deity-related, since they have to scrub out anything setting-related due to their online store.
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The quote I referenced says nothing about divine vs non-divine PCs. I haven't looked at the feat to see if it has such a requirement.
To get any mechanical benefit from a deity, you must be a legal worshiper of a legal deity. Period. There are no opinions here, only facts.
Edit: Wow - quadruple ninja'd responding a 3 minute old post.
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So, Fromper, in your opinion does that mean that a non-divine class could not take the Bloodletting feat I linked above?
No. it doesn't say that, and that doesn't follow from the text.
What it means is that your banjo worshiping evil fighter could not take it, since they don't worship any deity, therefore they don't worship an evil one. Even if they worshiped his Evil Brother Giggles god of slapstick, he still does not worship an evil deity because Giggles is not a Legal deity.
An zon kuthon worshiping fighter COULD take the feat
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If you sit down to the Star Wars roleplaying game, and start describing your character as a Klingon who flunked out of the Academy, it's you who's being the jerk, not the others at your table who are asking you to leave.
Same with worshiping/venerating/following/whatever Banjo the Clown in the Pathfinder universe.
I question your motives as a player. "That's something my character would do" is not a valid defense. It's specifically addressed in the Guide.
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So if I say my character "worships" <insert not specifically allowed deity here> then I incur the wrath of campaign leadership in whatever fictional character thought police form they think they can pin me down with, but if I use the completely synonymous word "venerate" it suddenly becomes ok with everyone?
Yep. That is about as hypocritical as Tarik Blackhands' concerns of actually allowed evil deity worship complete with mechanical benefits intact.
Rovagug is no different than Cthulhu in this argument. Neither is "worship" different from "venerate".
I'm sorry but my non-divine character can SAY they worship anyone/anything they wish. If you wish to supplant the word I used within your own mind for "venerate" just so you feel better about it you can feel free to do so. You do not get to choose the words that come out of my character's mouth. I do.
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If you sit down to the Star Wars roleplaying game, and start describing your character as a Klingon who flunked out of the Academy, it's you that's being the jerk, not the others at your table who are telling you to leave.
Probably varies with the tone of the group (which can be highly variable locally) an da few other factors.. ie the amount of bloodwine going around the table along
Erm. Romulan ale. That's it...
Same with worshiping/venerating/following/whatever Banjo the Clown in the Pathfinder universe.
I question you as a player. "That's something my character would do" is not a valid defense. It's specifically addressed in the Guide.
.. as well as the specific deity in question. Aroden for example is not a legal god to worship, but there is a legal trait (devotee to a dead god) based around worshiping him, cuthulu is in the setting in spirit if not in name. No one would be considered a jerk for their character worshiping them: they fit the story.
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If you sit down to the Star Wars roleplaying game, and start describing your character as a Klingon who flunked out of the Academy, it's you that's being the jerk, not the others at your table who are telling you to leave.
Is anyone suggesting anything remotely like that other than you, Nefreet?
I question your motives as a player as well. You seem like you are out to ruin someone else's fun that doesn't interfere with you. That is also specifically addressed in the guide. This isn't the first time I have seen the behavior from you either...
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An zon kuthon worshiping fighter COULD take the featAh. So then you agree that a Fighter could worship an evil deity? In PFS?
yes. as long as that deity is PFS legal and you're within one step of their alignment (which in pfs means you match them on the ethical Law to chaos axis and the other part of your alignment is neutral because you can't be evil. Reformed church of flaying people alive i guess?)
The ability to take that feat IS the mechanical benefit you get from worshiping the deity as a fighter, even if you never pick up cleric/warpriest levels later.
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BNW: Cthulhu is in Pathfinder completely. He is in Beastiary 4.
I mean, I don't particularly like black powder technology in my fantasy settings but I accept that it is part of the Pathfinder universe and don't throw a fit and say that I'm not going to sit at a table or DM a game for someone who chooses to play one. Just like I wouldn't do the same thing for someone who chooses to have their character sheet and all of their sources in digital form only.
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BNW: No, I don't think so. I have sat at the table with plenty of players of insane characters. Worshipping a hand puppet as a deity seems rather tame.
But if it pleases you then take out the mention of Banjo as a possibility at the table and replace it with the originally mentioned by the OP: Cthulhu.
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To keep the game from being pulled down into a mess of point/counter-point, we have to agree that certain words have certain meaning.
"Worship" and "Venerate" means something in PFS. To ignore those meanings when talk about a specifically PSF items seems to me as getting really close to "jerk" land.
If we don't agree to basic meaning of terms we might was well just lock this thread and move on.
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Also, wanted to point out that there is no issue of Cthulhu about copyright. You can't say "Call of Cthulhu" in reference to gaming unless you are Chaosium but other than that the IP is pretty much free reign. Same goes for all Lovecraftian stuffs. It is all public domain. That is why Paizo can print stuff with his name on it. Kinda like Sherlock Holmes.
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If you want to bring a Cthulhu worshiping PC to the table, you can. What your PC is actually doing, in game terms, is venerating Cthulhu, not worshiping him. But that's minor semantics.
You won't be able to gain any mechanical benefit from Cthulhu. So you can't have any feats, traits, divine class levels, or other mechanical features that require worship of that deity, even though Cthulhu exists in the setting.
Nobody is arguing against this, as far as I know, though I haven't gone back to re-read the whole thread from the beginning, just today's new posts.
If you choose to worship Zon-Kuthon, you CAN get mechanical benefits. You can be a cleric, warpriest, or inquisitor of Zon-Kuthon, or just a fighter who's obsessed with him. And you can get traits, feats, or whatever else from that worship. That's because he's a legal deity for PFS.
On the other hand, if you show up with a Zeus worshiping character, everyone at the table is going to look at you weird, and someone's likely to tell you, "Umm, dude, Zeus isn't part of this setting." Which I think was Nefreet's point about bringing a klingon to a Star Wars game.
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Sorry Gary, there is a logical part of my brain that refuses to differentiate between synonymous words; worship and venerate being among them. Honestly I think it is wandering close to "jerk land" to suggest locking a thread due to someone not seeing the difference between literally synonymous words. But, you know... you do you, I guess.
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But if it pleases you then take out the mention of Banjo as a possibility at the table and replace it with the originally mentioned by the OP: Cthulhu.
Its not a matter of like or dislike. Its just a matter of what the person is trying to do and what a reasonable response to it is.
I have a cool story about a banjo worshiper... can get you no mechanical benefits, and is probably going to annoy the group to the point that you shouldn't do it because banjo doesn't fit the theme of the game.
I have a cool story about a cuthulu worshiper is hard to do, gets you no mechanical benefits, but fits the world to the point that I think people getting mad at the idea are being silly.
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Also, wanted to point out that there is no issue of Cthulhu about copyright. You can't say "Call of Cthulhu" in reference to gaming unless you are Chaosium but other than that the IP is pretty much free reign. Same goes for all Lovecraftian stuffs. It is all public domain. That is why Paizo can print stuff with his name on it. Kinda like Sherlock Holmes.
I thought some of it was in or was out of public domain because of the age that it is and when Disney started patenting their stuff?