Legal Deities


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5/5 5/55/55/5

KingOfAnything wrote:


Julian can still honor Pharasma even if he is only pretending to be part of her order.

Only pharasma knows what pharasma feels about that. I think the particular god chosen here might be problematic. If it was urgotha... definite problem.

Quote:
And a Neutral Evil cleric of Pharasma will ping as evil at level 5 and beyond.

often overlooked class feature..

Aura (Ex)

A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see detect evil for details).

A NE cleric of pharasma has a neutral aura. not an evil one, no matter their level. A 5th level evil fighter will look just like a 1st level evil cleric.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I almost said that I would make an exception for Norgorber, for exactly the reasons you specified. Do you have the Infiltrator archetype, because pretending to worship another deity is the entire point of that archetype. (I have an Infiltrator Inquisitor of Norgorber in a home game I'm GMing.)

Sovereign Court 3/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:


Julian can still honor Pharasma even if he is only pretending to be part of her order.

Only pharasma knows what pharasma feels about that. I think the particular god chosen here might be problematic. If it was urgotha... definite problem.

Why does it matter what Pharasma feels about people paying her lip service? No one is expecting her to grant divine powers or anything.

Silver Crusade

Actually, when I first made Julian, I kind of assumed Pharasma wouldn't like him much. Then someone pointed out a published Paizo article (I forget where) that says that one of her main criteria in judging souls is how well they follow their chosen deity.

Julian is a nearly perfect Norgorber worshiper, in the god's aspect as god of secrets, not his aspects as the gods of murder, poison, and thievery. He lies about his true loyalties, spends all his time collecting secrets that he doesn't share, and never lets anyone know he really works for the Reaper of Reputations.

Also, Julian really is good at his job as Pharasma's inquisitor. He hunts undead. He performs funeral rights. He spreads the gospel of Pharasma accurately. He hears confessions. Ok, that last part isn't really a Pharasman thing to do - he just uses it as an excuse to find out people's secrets.

He may have started out just using her as an undercover excuse, but he really makes a point of being a good Pharasman priest. On some level, I'd say he really does venerate her, even if he's motivated more by fear of what she could do to his soul when he dies, rather than actual devotion.

And yes, he has the infiltrator archetype. So even if he was evil, he'd fool a Detect Evil spell. But he really is true neutral... he's an eccentric worshiper of an evil god, not an evil person.

5/5 5/55/55/5

KingOfAnything wrote:


Why does it matter what Pharasma feels about people paying her lip service? No one is expecting her to grant divine powers or anything.

Every once in a while there's a statue or an altar or something that can bless you based on who you follow

or zap you. or something.

1/5

Alright, I will admit it. My googlefu is failing me currently. Where is the thread where the rules for venerating is originally discussed? I can't seem to find it and I would like to assuage my curiosity.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Lune wrote:
Alright, I will admit it. My googlefu is failing me currently. Where is the thread where the rules for venerating is originally discussed? I can't seem to find it and I would like to assuage my curiosity.

I'm not sure if it came from any particular thread or was handed out after numerous threads on the issue (and probably hashed out on the secret candy boards)

5/5 5/55/55/5

this may be it

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

BNW's thread is a good one for understanding the current rule.

If you are looking for past discussions for context, I'd point you towards this one.

But there are plenty of others. Try searching this forum for "venerate".

5/5 5/55/55/5

pH unbalanced wrote:

BNW's thread is a good one for understanding the current rule.

If you are looking for past discussions for context, I'd point you towards this one.

But there are plenty of others. Try searching this forum for "venerate".

Judging from that thread and the cuthulu thread that spawned it (rimshot), the way venture critters were objecting to the other forumites using the term worship makes me think it was something that was settled/was being settled with the venture critters and they didn't realize that it hadn't trickled down into the rules yet.

Silver Crusade

The actual published rule for it is in the season 8 Guild Guide, in the glossary entries for the words "worship" and "venerate".

Grand Lodge

Lune wrote:


3. A player bringing a character to the table who has a deity listed from the specifically allowed list, receives mechanical benefit from that deity but venerates a different deity that is not on the specifically allowed list and in character attributes her mechanical benefits to the deity that they venerate?

...

I will point out that there is a legal cleric archetype that does allow this, the Separatist.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Glewistee wrote:

I will point out that there is a legal cleric archetype that does allow this, the Separatist.

Not quite.

2 Things

1) Is that getting the benefits of that archtype (picking your domains) without the costs of that archetype (one of the domains functions at -2 everything) is one thing you can do if you try to swap one deity in for the deity you want to worship.

2) the archetype doesn't say that you're getting your power from a different god than the one you worship.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Glewistee wrote:

I will point out that there is a legal cleric archetype that does allow this, the Separatist.

Not quite.

2 Things

1) Is that getting the benefits of that archtype (picking your domains) without the costs of that archetype (one of the domains functions at -2 everything) is one thing you can do if you try to swap one deity in for the deity you want to worship.

2) the archetype doesn't say that you're getting your power from a different god than the one you worship.

2) but you are getting the benefits from the one you are worshiping while potentially convinced that they are a different Diety.

My first PRPG character is a wandering gambler that I wanted to worship the goddess of Luck. Desna and Calistria didn't really fit into my concept, so I went Seperatist. He worships Luck as a divine being, and Calistria finds it amusing enough to grant him abilities. I'm not obnoxious with it though. Most people at the table don't even realize he,s a cleric.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Lune wrote:
Sorry Gary, there is a logical part of my brain that refuses to differentiate between synonymous words; worship and venerate being among them. Honestly I think it is wandering close to "jerk land" to suggest locking a thread due to someone not seeing the difference between literally synonymous words. But, you know... you do you, I guess.

The point is that the season 8 Guide specifically defines what those two terms mean in game speak. The reason for the differentiation is to open up options for players and characters outside of only what's possible for gaining mechanical benefit.

It may be confusing at first, but please do take a look at the glossary in the season 8 guide.

Scarab Sages 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:
Lune wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
If you sit down to the Star Wars roleplaying game, and start describing your character as a Klingon who flunked out of the Academy, it's you that's being the jerk, not the others at your table who are telling you to leave.
Is anyone suggesting anything remotely like that other than you, Nefreet?

My analogy was in response to your example of worshiping Banjo the Clown.

How would you prefer I interpret your post?

Worshipping or veneration banjo the clown is not ok in PFS. The veneration has to be Golarion specific.

Shadow Lodge

Glewistee wrote:
My first PRPG character is a wandering gambler that I wanted to worship the goddess of Luck. Desna and Calistria didn't really fit into my concept, so I went Seperatist. He worships Luck as a divine being, and Calistria finds it amusing enough to grant him abilities. I'm not obnoxious with it though. Most people at the table don't even realize he,s a cleric.

Hate to be that guy, but... totally not appropriate for this campaign. The explicit rule of this campaign is that clerics must worship a deity to gain divine powers, not a deity-adjacent concept. The Separatist archetype does not change that rule; you just don't have to be as orthodox in your worship of that deity, and can stress different aspects of the deity than the more mainstream non-hipster clergy, but you still have to worship the deity.

Who you send those prayers to matters; if you address them to "Luck", then the Divine Postal Service isn't going to send them to Calistria, Desna, or even Shelyn. They're going to end up in the "undeliverable" pile, because the DPS can't be bothered with returning prayers to sender.

I'm sorry if you don't like the deities who grant the Luck domain, but change your concept fit the setting, don't change the setting to fit the concept; you only own one of those, and it ain't the setting.

Scarab Sages 5/5

SCPRedMage wrote:
Glewistee wrote:
My first PRPG character is a wandering gambler that I wanted to worship the goddess of Luck. Desna and Calistria didn't really fit into my concept, so I went Seperatist. He worships Luck as a divine being, and Calistria finds it amusing enough to grant him abilities. I'm not obnoxious with it though. Most people at the table don't even realize he,s a cleric.

Hate to be that guy, but... totally not appropriate for this campaign. The explicit rule of this campaign is that clerics must worship a deity to gain divine powers, not a deity-adjacent concept. The Separatist archetype does not change that rule; you just don't have to be as orthodox in your worship of that deity, and can stress different aspects of the deity than the more mainstream non-hipster clergy, but you still have to worship the deity.

Who you send those prayers to matters; if you address them to "Luck", then the Divine Postal Service isn't going to send them to Calistria, Desna, or even Shelyn. They're going to end up in the "undeliverable" pile, because the DPS can't be bothered with returning prayers to sender.

I'm sorry if you don't like the deities who grant the Luck domain, but change your concept fit the setting, don't change the setting to fit the concept; you only own one of those, and it ain't the setting.

Especially considering that for most cleric spells, divine focus is a component for casting the spells. And the divine focus is a holy symbol of that deity.

So mechanically, you can't choose to worship an ideal in PFS. However, lets recognize that in Pathfinder in general, that worshiping an ideal is something that the GM and player get to define together, as its specifically written into the cleric rules that it could be an option.

Liberty's Edge

In a home game it is no problem. In PFS it has been banned. The ruling is in Additional Resources, under Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Swordjockey wrote:
In a home game it is no problem. In PFS it has been banned. The ruling is in Additional Resources, under Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods.

Worship has been banned. Those deities still exist in Golarion. And the guide specifically allows for any Golarion-specific deity to be venerated.

1/5

Tallow wrote:
Lune wrote:
Sorry Gary, there is a logical part of my brain that refuses to differentiate between synonymous words; worship and venerate being among them. Honestly I think it is wandering close to "jerk land" to suggest locking a thread due to someone not seeing the difference between literally synonymous words. But, you know... you do you, I guess.

The point is that the season 8 Guide specifically defines what those two terms mean in game speak. The reason for the differentiation is to open up options for players and characters outside of only what's possible for gaining mechanical benefit.

It may be confusing at first, but please do take a look at the glossary in the season 8 guide.

I understand that, Chris, and thank you for posting here. However, my biggest issue with it is that it is likely that I will slip and use the English definition rather than the Guide definition and say that my character worships Cthulhu in casual conversation. Recognize that I am not doing it to troll the community but because I see little distinction in my mind about the acts that the character takes and the character's perspective.

Also, the character will not be using the term "venerate". I don't think there is any issue with that within the rules of PFS. Unless I'm mistaken?


Tallow wrote:
Swordjockey wrote:
In a home game it is no problem. In PFS it has been banned. The ruling is in Additional Resources, under Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods.
Worship has been banned. Those deities still exist in Golarion. And the guide specifically allows for any Golarion-specific deity to be venerated.

You can't use veneration to get around the worship ban, or to acquire powers that are dependent upon banned dieties. When you're looking for a mechanical benefit, you've gone beyond veneration.

1/5

Tallow wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Lune wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
If you sit down to the Star Wars roleplaying game, and start describing your character as a Klingon who flunked out of the Academy, it's you that's being the jerk, not the others at your table who are telling you to leave.
Is anyone suggesting anything remotely like that other than you, Nefreet?

My analogy was in response to your example of worshiping Banjo the Clown.

How would you prefer I interpret your post?

Worshipping or veneration banjo the clown is not ok in PFS. The veneration has to be Golarion specific.

Roy, "Elan, you cannot be the cleric of a hand puppet clown."

Elan, "Sure I can! Technically, you can be a cleric of a 'cause'."
Roy, "I don't see how a puppet qualifies."
Elan, "Banjo is a state of mind, Roy."

Banjo is a state of mind, Chris. Just replace "cause" with "venerate". Could one not venerate the teachings of Banjo the Clown? It seems no different than someone venerating the teachings of their Eidolon. Ooo, or what if they have a figment familiar? That is actually an extension of their own mind. Could someone venerate that?

FYI - the mention of Banjo was meant to be tongue and cheek. Both previously and in this post. Everything else I have said was mean in complete seriousness. While there have been things we have disagreed on in the past I think we are 100% eye to eye on this. I am not actually advocating the veneration of Banjo and can only see the possibility of issues with venerating an Eidolon. I have seen bigger issues with the worship of allowed deities for mechanical benefit.

1/5

Drahliana Moonrunner: The writer of the rule says otherwise and Campaign Leadership doesn't disagree. You are, at this point, arguing against both RAW and RAI.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Lune wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Lune wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
If you sit down to the Star Wars roleplaying game, and start describing your character as a Klingon who flunked out of the Academy, it's you that's being the jerk, not the others at your table who are telling you to leave.
Is anyone suggesting anything remotely like that other than you, Nefreet?

My analogy was in response to your example of worshiping Banjo the Clown.

How would you prefer I interpret your post?

Worshipping or veneration banjo the clown is not ok in PFS. The veneration has to be Golarion specific.

Roy, "Elan, you cannot be the cleric of a hand puppet clown."

Elan, "Sure I can! Technically, you can be a cleric of a 'cause'."
Roy, "I don't see how a puppet qualifies."
Elan, "Banjo is a state of mind, Roy."

Banjo is a state of mind, Chris. Just replace "cause" with "venerate". Could one not venerate the teachings of Banjo the Clown? It seems no different than someone venerating the teachings of their Eidolon. Ooo, or what if they have a figment familiar? That is actually an extension of their own mind. Could someone venerate that?

FYI - the mention of Banjo was meant to be tongue and cheek. Both previously and in this post. Everything else I have said was mean in complete seriousness. While there have been things we have disagreed on in the past I think we are 100% eye to eye on this. I am not actually advocating the veneration of Banjo and can only see the possibility of issues with venerating an Eidolon. I have seen bigger issues with the worship of allowed deities for mechanical benefit.

And it's for ridiculous situations like this that's one more reason that I don't think you should be able to venerate otherwise non-legal entities.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Lune wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner: The writer of the rule says otherwise and Campaign Leadership doesn't disagree. You are, at this point, arguing against both RAW and RAI.

Did you even read what Compton said?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Rysky wrote:
Lune wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner: The writer of the rule says otherwise and Campaign Leadership doesn't disagree. You are, at this point, arguing against both RAW and RAI.
Did you even read what Compton said?

That they'll be putting something together, so just wait for the clarifications coming down the pipe. It takes a while.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Lune wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner: The writer of the rule says otherwise and Campaign Leadership doesn't disagree. You are, at this point, arguing against both RAW and RAI.
Did you even read what Compton said?
That they'll be putting something together, so just wait for the clarifications coming down the pipe. It takes a while.

Exactly.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Swordjockey wrote:
In a home game it is no problem. In PFS it has been banned. The ruling is in Additional Resources, under Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods.
Worship has been banned. Those deities still exist in Golarion. And the guide specifically allows for any Golarion-specific deity to be venerated.
You can't use veneration to get around the worship ban, or to acquire powers that are dependent upon banned dieties. When you're looking for a mechanical benefit, you've gone beyond veneration.

I'm not sure what your distinction is? Veneration gives you no powers.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Lune wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Lune wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
If you sit down to the Star Wars roleplaying game, and start describing your character as a Klingon who flunked out of the Academy, it's you that's being the jerk, not the others at your table who are telling you to leave.
Is anyone suggesting anything remotely like that other than you, Nefreet?

My analogy was in response to your example of worshiping Banjo the Clown.

How would you prefer I interpret your post?

Worshipping or veneration banjo the clown is not ok in PFS. The veneration has to be Golarion specific.

Roy, "Elan, you cannot be the cleric of a hand puppet clown."

Elan, "Sure I can! Technically, you can be a cleric of a 'cause'."
Roy, "I don't see how a puppet qualifies."
Elan, "Banjo is a state of mind, Roy."

Banjo is a state of mind, Chris. Just replace "cause" with "venerate". Could one not venerate the teachings of Banjo the Clown? It seems no different than someone venerating the teachings of their Eidolon. Ooo, or what if they have a figment familiar? That is actually an extension of their own mind. Could someone venerate that?

FYI - the mention of Banjo was meant to be tongue and cheek. Both previously and in this post. Everything else I have said was mean in complete seriousness. While there have been things we have disagreed on in the past I think we are 100% eye to eye on this. I am not actually advocating the veneration of Banjo and can only see the possibility of issues with venerating an Eidolon. I have seen bigger issues with the worship of allowed deities for mechanical benefit.

Thanks for responding. My name is Andy, not Chris. But that isn't a huge deal.

But the definition says Golarion-specific. So unless Banjo the Clown exists in Golarion Lore, you can't worship or venerate him.

Additionally, in PFS, you must worship a deity if you want to be a cleric. So no causes.

Silver Crusade

Now I want to do insane, mentally deficient character who actually "worships" (venerates) his hand puppet named Banjo the Clown in PFS. This thread has inspired me!

Scarab Sages 5/5

Lastly, John Compton is reviewing the issue and will clarify for everyone's edification. It may be that his clarification is different than my initial understanding and intent. That's ok. That's why they pay him the big bucks--to make those decisions.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Tallow wrote:
Lastly, John Compton is reviewing the issue and will clarify for everyone's edification. It may be that his clarification is different than my initial understanding and intent. That's ok. That's why they pay him the big bucks--to make those decisions.

And it's for this reason that I suggest everyone on both sides dial back on comments until they announce said decision.


Tallow wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Swordjockey wrote:
In a home game it is no problem. In PFS it has been banned. The ruling is in Additional Resources, under Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods.
Worship has been banned. Those deities still exist in Golarion. And the guide specifically allows for any Golarion-specific deity to be venerated.
You can't use veneration to get around the worship ban, or to acquire powers that are dependent upon banned dieties. When you're looking for a mechanical benefit, you've gone beyond veneration.
I'm not sure what your distinction is? Veneration gives you no powers.

The poster wants to venerate a banned deity in order to pick up an associated feat. I call that getting a mechanical benefit which falls under the category of worship.

1/5

That is not true. Remind me, what feat is it that the OP wanted, Drahliana?

Scarab Sages 5/5

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Swordjockey wrote:
In a home game it is no problem. In PFS it has been banned. The ruling is in Additional Resources, under Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods.
Worship has been banned. Those deities still exist in Golarion. And the guide specifically allows for any Golarion-specific deity to be venerated.
You can't use veneration to get around the worship ban, or to acquire powers that are dependent upon banned dieties. When you're looking for a mechanical benefit, you've gone beyond veneration.
I'm not sure what your distinction is? Veneration gives you no powers.
The poster wants to venerate a banned deity in order to pick up an associated feat. I call that getting a mechanical benefit which falls under the category of worship.

I'm pretty sure nobody in this thread was suggesting anything of the sort.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Tallow wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Swordjockey wrote:
In a home game it is no problem. In PFS it has been banned. The ruling is in Additional Resources, under Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods.
Worship has been banned. Those deities still exist in Golarion. And the guide specifically allows for any Golarion-specific deity to be venerated.
You can't use veneration to get around the worship ban, or to acquire powers that are dependent upon banned dieties. When you're looking for a mechanical benefit, you've gone beyond veneration.
I'm not sure what your distinction is? Veneration gives you no powers.
The poster wants to venerate a banned deity in order to pick up an associated feat. I call that getting a mechanical benefit which falls under the category of worship.
I'm pretty sure nobody in this thread was suggesting anything of the sort.

To my knowledge he was wanting to reflavour class abilities as coming from Cthulhu or something. Never saw anything about a feat.

Sovereign Court 3/5 Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Toronto aka crashcanuck

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As OP I never intended to make a character to (what I now know it is called) venerate Cthulhu for any feat, it was solely about fluff and roleplay purposes. Cthulhu was just the easy example.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Fromper wrote:

Now I want to do insane, mentally deficient character who actually "worships" (venerates) his hand puppet named Banjo the Clown in PFS. This thread has inspired me!

Technically, that wouldn't be a legal use of "veneration", as Banjo the Clown is not a Golarion deity or philosophy. That said, you could certainly play a character who thinks he's worshiping/venerating his hand puppet... it just couldn't be actually classified as either of those things.

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