Hey!
It has been a while since I have checked out the options for a unarmed punch machine.
I have a new player and he was instantly drawn to the monk and of course fell into the trap of "why can't I hit anything"
back int he day (3 years ago)my stichk was playing a luchadore do I considered my self an expert in playing a wrestling face punching murder machine but time s have changed with the brawler and unchained monk.
my question is this what is a good basic punching class for this guy to play he has zero knowledge of the game and is a brand new player the bralwer lookes good but I am afraid the large amount of combat feats and kowing which feat does what will be a bit overwhelming.
I was thinking of having him go unchained monk or unarmed fighter with a dip into MOMS for him
level 2 and we are running the iron gods book 1
the other thing is that we have ZERO internet where we game so we have to have the stuff prepared ahead of time.
Brawler
Unchained Monk
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Brawler isn't bad, but the Mutagenic Mauler Archetype is probably better for a new player than the base class due to the aforementioned problem with huge numbers of Feats. It replaces those with the much easier to remember Mutagen.
Unchained Monk is also very solid. Just period. Honestly, it's probably better than Mutagenic Mauler, but the flavor of the two is pretty different and somewhat baked in.
For a new player I'd just go with one of those. Both are super straightforward, which is something that can't be said of most other unarmed combat options (some of which are probably even better...but more complicated).
If willing to go a little more complicated and interested in the flavor, an Avenger Vigilante is another interesting possibility, and potentially very fun without getting overwhelming, but it is a bit trickier to build (though not mostly in play) and has more out of combat options (which might be important).
Brawler isn't bad, but the Mutagenic Mauler Archetype is probably better for a new player than the base class due to the aforementioned problem with huge numbers of Feats. It replaces those with the much easier to remember Mutagen.
Unchained Monk is also very solid. Just period. Honestly, it's probably better than Mutagenic Mauler, but the flavor of the two is pretty different and somewhat baked in.
For a new player I'd just go with one of those. Both are super straightforward, which is something that can't be said of most other unarmed combat options (some of which are probably even better...but more complicated).
If willing to go a little more complicated and interested in the flavor, an Avenger Vigilante is another interesting possibility, and potentially very fun without getting overwhelming, but it is a bit trickier to build (though not mostly in play) and has more out of combat options (which might be important).
he is playing a Android so I might tweak it to be part of his nanite abilty like a subroutine instead of the mutagenic alchemist thing.
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he is playing a Android so I might tweak it to be part of his nanite abilty like a subroutine instead of the mutagenic alchemist thing.
Technically, I think it needs to be an external item he drinks (since other people can try drinking it and suffer), but it could easily be a supercharger formula for his nanites he figured out how to make. Or something like that.
Or, as the GM, you could ignore all that. :)
IS THE NEW unchained monk also MAD?
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IS THE NEW unchained monk also MAD?
Much less so. You can do pretty much a straight Str/Wis build with, say, Dex and Con at 12 and be fine.
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 7 is a solid 20 point-buy stat-line, for example.
It's not a great Class for Androids given their stat mods, though. You can do the finesse version in theory, but in practice it's not a great plan mostly.
Really, I'd be inclined to go Vigilante for an Android if it fit the flavor. There's a very nice finesse build for an unarmed Avenger Vigilante...
IS THE NEW unchained monk also MAD?
The D10 hit die solves a lot of problems (since it's basically +2 CON for free versus the chained monk). This also means you have to devote less to Dex to keep your HP high since "getting hit" is not instant death.
For the standard UnMonk you want STR and WIS high, DEX and CON respectable, and you don't care about INT or CHA. Ideally, IMO, a class aims for two stats high, still cares about two other stats, and is fine with low scores in two stats.
The best I can find so far in terms of feats and class features would be to take Weapon Finesse and Linnorm Style, so he's using his Dexterity for attack rolls. With Linnorm Style he can use his Wisdom instead of Strength for damage rolls, but it requires having a constant -2 penalty to your AC and you can't add your Wisdom to damage unless the creature tried to hit you with a melee attack in the last round.
There's always the option of getting an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the guided enchantment, which lets you use Wisdom for both the attack and damage roll and would remove the need for Strength entirely. It's technically first-party since it was introduced in Curse of the Crimson Throne, but it was back before Pathfinder was its own system. If you're willing to allow it, it would be a good choice for him to pick up once he's accumulated 4,000g.
I cant find a link for Linorm style?
This is a build I just came up with last night that may be useful for you. He was bult as a Human so you'll have to tweak the stats and lose Belier's Bite, but you probably wouldn't benefit from that feat in Iron Gods anyway. This is a copy/paste from a message to a friend so ignore the Vicious AoMF unless he wants to go that route.
Human: Belier's Bite
Brawler: IUS
1. Dodge
2. Bonus: TWF
Weapon Focus: IUS
3. Jabbing Style
5. Bonus: Mobility
Jabbing Dancer
7. Power Attack
8. Bonus: Jabbing Master
Bonus: ITWF
Level 8 Stats No magic
Str 20 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8
I think I found the build for Bloody Knuckles. Snakebite Striker Brawler + Vicious AoMF + Jabbing Style.
At level 8 assuming 20 Str +12/+12/+7/+7 for (1d10+5 Str+2d6 Vicious +1d4 Bleed) Standard Damage. On 2nd hit vs same target add 2d6. On 3rd and subsequent hits add 3d6. Once flanking thanks to Jabbing Dancer add 2d6 Sneak Attack.
So in a perfect round, +12/Standard damage +5 ft step, +12/Standard damage +2d6 +5ft step, probably flanking now so +9/standard damage +5d6, and +9/same. All attacks hit (4d10+20+8d6)+(12d6)+probably 4 Bleed or Avg 101 damage and 4 Bleed and 14 damage to myself.
Hope that helps!
one more quick question how does the TWF feat chain interact with the Brawlers flurry?
if the guy invests in a TWF brawler does it negate the point of Brawlers Flurry?
one more quick question how does the TWF feat chain interact with the Brawlers flurry?
if the guy invests in a TWF brawler does it negate the point of Brawlers Flurry?
Brawler's Flurry already acts like TWF with a very specific set of weapons, and always 1xStr modifier for attacks (even off-hand or two-handed) and can use a single weapon instead of several.
If one gets TWF normally, it won't interact with Brawler's Flurry at all. It will however let one use TWF with wider range of weapons with all the usual restrictions/limits (needs to use more than one weapon and off-hand is 0.5xStr mod damage without Double Slice feat).
BRAWLER
IS THE NEW unchained monk also MAD?
Listening to everyone talk about: Yes, pretty much the same. Only you can make do with slightly less con with the same amount of HP, since they have slightly larger hit dice.
Everything else is people overblowing the advantage that brings, and sometimes paradoxically advising stat spreads that depends on the larger hit dice after they reduced con because of the hit dice.
Otherwise, it is just a better flurry, and earlier access to unarmed pseudo pounce (it is nice, but not that revolutionary when monks could already grab pummeling style; pummeling style is still even useful on unchained monks since it solves pretty much all DR problems).
If you really want a non-MAD monk, you go with a sohei. They are the ones that actually shake up the monk stat dynamics. They can grab light armor early on to allow them to be at an acceptable level of AC without pumping dex or wis. So you can just go for strength and leave everything else to later headbands and belts. Eventually they are probably better off without armor when you can get the magic items.
Anyway, for the discussion of a 'newb friendly punching machine': How about a cestus? Unarmed builds are nice and all, but it is still a somewhat obtuse style with the amulet adn the style feats, and etc. A cestus just works, and it can be enhanced as normal. And it punches, which keeps in with the player's main goal.
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The Unchained Monk has more consistent damage thanks to their Full BAB and Flying Kick. Their Flurry of Blows is much more accurate as each additional attack is made at Full BAB with no penalties. They have higher HP with the same stats due to the d10 HD, and although the class is still MAD it isn't nearly to the degree that it once was. If you ask me, the lower Will save is worth the significant increase to their offensive abilities and is more than mitigated due to their decent Wisdom scores and the ease of obtaining Iron Will (since many of the feats you may want are Bonus Feats for a Monk). It is a weak point, but there has to be one if we want to balance the class.
Eh. I tend to use sohei when I try to go for an attack build, so I don't notice the attack difference too much after a while.
They get weapon training, which allows their standard action attacks to hit about as well as the unchained monk, and their flurries can overcome the penalties and even surpass the unchained monk in attack bonus (might need gloves of dueling... but this is a monk thread; all monks are highly dependent on items).
Sohei is what I tend to point at when comparing monk to unchained monk. Unmonk has improvements, but not in ways that haven't been tried before.
We have decided on brawler, I think I will print out a list of some basic combat feats he can use.
any suggestions? to a good standard list of combat feats for a level 2 newbie.
1.vital strike (yes i know its a trap)
2. power attack
3. cleave
4. Improved (insert combat maneuver here)
5.deflect arrows
We have decided on brawler, I think I will print out a list of some basic combat feats he can use.
any suggestions? to a good standard list of combat feats for a level 2 newbie.
1.vital strike (yes i know its a trap)
2. power attack
3. cleave
4. Improved (insert combat maneuver here)
5.deflect arrows
looks like Scratch vital strike till level 6.
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I highly recommend Dedicated Adversary. It's a terrible Feat to actually take due to specificity, but wonderful to tack on with Martial Flexibility if you have a free slot.
Also remember that you need to meet all prerequisites when using Martial Flexibility and Power Attack and Combat Expertise are thus great early Feats for a Brawler to actually take.
Some other solid Feats he should be aware of:
Dodge (and follow-up Feats)
Pummeling Style (he should actually take these rather than using Martial Flexibility, but yeah, take 'em).
Blind Fight (and follow-up Feats)
I highly recommend Dedicated Adversary. It's a terrible Feat to actually take due to specificity, but wonderful to tack on with Martial Flexibility if you have a free slot.
Also remember that you need to meet all prerequisites when using Martial Flexibility and Power Attack and Combat Expertise are thus great early Feats for a Brawler to actually take.
Some other solid Feats he should be aware of:
Dodge (and follow-up Feats)
Pummeling Style (he should actually take these rather than using Martial Flexibility, but yeah, take 'em).
Blind Fight (and follow-up Feats)
thanks,
good to know.
anyother feat ideas I want to keep it mighty simple.
and how flexible should i be with the permanent feats the class says you have to take a feat that improves your attack or defense.
An alternative to Combat Expertise, I'd suggest Dirty Fighting instead. It counts as Combat Expertise and some other usual prereqs (which don't matter as much due to existing brawler class features and likelihood of decent dexterity) of maneuver feats, however the feat on it's own allows one to frequently be able to do maneuvers without provoking as long as in a flanking position. I found such a thing saved a lot of martial flexibility uses.
Snakebite Striker Brawler focuses less on Combat Maneuvers in favour of punching and trades out the unmanageable mess of Martial Versatility for Sneak Attack, a feature that is relatively simple and does awesome damage with multiple attacks. Just make sure that both you and the party understand flanking.
Off topic: why do GMs let people play Androids?
Go unchained monk. Your player will love it. Follow one of my sample builds in my guide.