So, I need a reason for my PC's to truly hate the guts of the BBEG yet also fear him a little. I'm partial to having him commit casual genocide in front of them, but I can't just say it happens "because story" or the players will know that it's simple plot armor allowing the BBEG to do this. I am a fair and impartial GM, so I want to build the BBEG to be all totally legit and within the rules that paizo has published.
Thus, I am asking for advice on builds which might enable the destruction of armies, assuming they are mostly made up of level 1 commoners/warriors.
I've been thinking of the combination of Great Cleave with Lunge, with the addition of a mythic rank ability which allows rolls of natural 1 to not be automatic failures.
Now the question is, is there a better way to accomplish Mass Murder in 1 round? Points for doing it with fewer levels, and of course, how many commoners you can kill. :)
Order a bunch of minions to do evil in his name? With a proper elite death squad, he can do vast amounts of harm in little time.
Mock them as he murders helpless prisoners?
Simply having feats that allow him to kill a bunch of mooks per turn, upon good rolls, doesn't really make a character hate-worthy.
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You could have him use the Extinction Wave Device to wipe out an army/city. Then the players have no idea what he can do, and will have to figure out how to take this doomsday machine out of the equation.
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You need to go for quality over quantity. The players are unlikely to care about a bunch of no names who were scripted to die anyway. Instead, create a beloved NPC and then kill him. The easiest way to do this is with a friendly old cleric who freely heals the players. For example, in the first adventure throw some status causing enemies at the PCs. And then they stumble into a village and get some free healing that would normally be expensive from your friendly doomed cleric. You kill that golden goose and the players will hate that villain.
Think of it like this. Magneto takes a packed stadium of people and turns it upside down before crushing everyone, just to flip the bird at Xavier. The X-men will loath him. So would PC's. That's what I'm going for.
Only, I'm trying to avoid it requiring the BBEG to be able to cast wish.
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Think of it like this. Magneto takes a packed stadium of people and turns it upside down before crushing everyone, just to flip the bird at Xavier. The X-men will loath him. So would PC's. That's what I'm going for.
Do they though? Most of the time, they just treat him like a racist uncle at Thanksgiving. He's killed thousands and thousands of people, but any time he gets a little repentant they welcome him right back in. And it's not like the audience hates him. Magneto is a beloved character.
Think of it like this. Magneto takes a packed stadium of people and turns it upside down before crushing everyone, just to flip the bird at Xavier. The X-men will loath him. So would PC's. That's what I'm going for.
Only, I'm trying to avoid it requiring the BBEG to be able to cast wish.
I don't think this would work. The X-men are fictional characters living in their fictionnal world, their actions are dictated by the same person who dictated the villain's actions and thus their response is automatically the desired one.
Players don't live in the world you create. A BBEG randomly killing a non-descript number of non-descript NPCs, whose sole presence in the campaign was for their death, is not likely to trigger much of an emotional response from them.
Edit: also this
Do they though? Most of the time, they just treat him like a racist uncle at Thanksgiving. And it's not like the audience hates him. Magneto is a beloved character.
Alright then, I can agree with that. But I'm still interested in the thought behind it. What's the greatest number of lvl 1 commoners you can kill in a round using just one character? there are probably many ways to bump it up to infinity, but I'm curious as to each ways limits and counters. Anyone got any possible builds?
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Mass suffocation?
Seems pretty good at hurting the innocents. Maybe you should make a DMPC and perform self-sacrifice for emotional value. Killing the PC's family just makes them angry.
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mass suffocation would do it, imagine having the breath sucked out of you until you die. With enough description, that would be really, really horrifying to any group of reasonably good PCs
the villain could also just trap a bunch of people in a small room and burn them alive.
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If you want this to cut a little deeper, you may want to try it with dogs instead of people. We are super used to seeing people die in fiction, so it's not that shocking, but dogs almost always survive. Have the bad guy have an irrational hatred of dogs, so he rounds up all of the dogs in town and kills them all. Add some little girl crying over her lost dog and BAM, you suddenly have a villain most people will hate.
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If you want this to cut a little deeper, you may want to try it with dogs instead of people. We are super used to seeing people die in fiction, so it's not that shocking, but dogs almost always survive. Have the bad guy have an irrational hatred of dogs, so he rounds up all of the dogs in town and kills them all. Add some little girl crying over her lost dog and BAM, you suddenly have a villain most people will hate.
Then maybe have her father or mother or something charge, so the BBEG just casts regular suffocation for an instance kill.
Also, is the BBEG a goblin? ;)
In Phantom of the Opera Erik (the phantom) is a skilled user of the Punjab lasso. He'd choke people wielding spears before they'd reach him in the court of the Sultana. That was so characteristic the musical sings Keep your hand at the level of your eyes so as to stop the choke.
Maybe have some crazy old lady chant a phrase like that. Like mind your breath or something like that.
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If you want this to cut a little deeper, you may want to try it with dogs instead of people. We are super used to seeing people die in fiction, so it's not that shocking, but dogs almost always survive. Have the bad guy have an irrational hatred of dogs, so he rounds up all of the dogs in town and kills them all. Add some little girl crying over her lost dog and BAM, you suddenly have a villain most people will hate.
Thats a really good idea actually. Bonus points if its cats. Internet loves cats.
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As opposed to killing a bunch of NPCs who just popped up to get murdered, you could have the Villain casually slaughter the town that the PCs have been hanging around, developing feelings for. It has more impact than introducing one likable NPC just to kill, and WAY more impact than introducing a bunch of faceless NPCs just to kill.
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If the PCs develop an attachment to a small town, say, Sandpoint (using RotRL or JR) that they adventure in, interact with assorted NPCs and get to generally liking, instead of casually murdering them...
The villain massacres the town while they're gone, leaving assorted permanent or programmed illusions in his wake. The former depicting his victim's death scene, the latter to taunt the PCs. Slather in assorted fun spells like mirage arcana to mask the heroes' return.
The villain deliberately seeds these illusions to taunt the heroes with not-easily-dispelled illusions graphically depicting their friends' horrible demises beneath a distressing layer of quiet.
Maybe Sandpoint has a pseudo Mary Celeste vibe until the heroes arrival coincides with the termination of the mirage's duration...
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Could do a damaged Song of Extinction (Music Box). Have it so that it can only play X number of times but the PCs don't know it. Very cinematic and deadly but so long as none of the PCs are bards that can learn it while they are in the middle of it then once the music box breaks you don't need to worry about balance anymore.
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Have the Big Bad brainwash a small town, or drive them cultist tendencies. Have an invite sent to the PC's that they're invited to a festival at said small town.
When they arrive, he's just sitting in middle of town surrounded by townsfolk having a good time.
"Our guests have arrived!"
That's when the townsfolk turn on their heels and attack the PC's- throwing themselves onto the PC's weapons, or the crazed townfolk will purposefully harm others to try to harm the PC's- imagine a farmer driving a pitchfork through another person to try to jab at a PC.
All this time, the big bad is just sitting, enjoying some wine, watching the townsfolk slaughter themselves. If any PC approaches him, swarm them with more villagers, while the Big Bad taunts them. Claiming that the PC's slaughtered the 'innocent' townsfolk themselves.
What better way to make the PC's loathe the Big Bad? make the PC's cause the genocide.
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Have him spread a disease that kills horribly instead.
He can have an elite death squad execute all the local healers, then sow the town with a few dozen Ghoul Distemper infected Goblins (or any other creatures) to spread the disease.
Bonus if he is capable of then raising all the dead as Bloody Skeletons to do his bidding forever...
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Since this started with a martial scenario, I will offer another. Whiirlwind attack, pounce, reach and close weapon (polearm and spiked armor for example), long arm, lunge, charge through.
So this will allow the BBEG to move to a spot in the middle of a crowd and create a 20' radius of death at the endpoint. Enlarge will expand this of needed.
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For pure body count plus a clear and present danger to the PCs that doesn't result in instant-death unless they can't or won't retreat, a Widened cloudkill will automatically kill every common person in its radius on round one (somewhere in the neighborhood of 120 3 HD or fewer folks packed in close), and continue killing for more than a few minutes as it slowly rolls along poisoning everything in its path straight up dead. Horses, livestock, pets, everything.
Added bonus is the large swath of total concealment from the 'fog', permitting the villain copious time to effect its escape.
A mere 9th or 10th level caster can slaughter entire (small) armies with one casting, especially if they're able and willing to layer solid fog into the mix to thwart retreats...
An Arcanist, Wizard or Eldritch Knight could do this easily with a single multiple spell scroll. A judicious combination of traits and/or feats and/or potentially certain bloodlines can greatly offset or eliminate the higher spell slot requirement. ;)
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Control Winds + Wall of fire is the go-to army/town slaying spell combo of choice. At CL12 on a moderately windy day, the caster can create hurricane force inward flowing winds that knock down buildings and deal commoner killing amounts of damage. Toss down a wall of fire in the center to mop up any survivors that are dragged there and Bob's your uncle, one genocide completed.
The fun thing is that anyone who can make the save about half the time has minimal chance of dying and can help their friends, so you can toss this down with moderately leveled PCs in the middle of it and watch them try to save handfuls of people as the entire town gets ripped apart.
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As noted, there are plenty of ways to kill lots of low level people with spells. Even a simple Confusion spell can hit as many as 48 people if they are packed in together (e.g. stadium) and will almost certainly result in the deaths of all those people and several more in the surrounding area.
Your original combat mayhem idea is much harder to pull off that level of carnage in a single round.
For example, Great Cleave and Lunge would only get you the handful of people within range of your extended reach... a medium sized BBEG with 10' reach completely surrounded by medium targets could kill 24 in a round. To really run up the body count you'd need something like Improved Cleaving Finish, Combat Reflexes, Panther Claw, and Spring-Heeled Reaping... which is obviously a huge feat investment.
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Implanted Alchemist's Bombs can set off a chain reaction of exploding people. That'll give you more time to describe the carnage.
I fear that, for the most part, the objective of killing as many people as possible and the objective of having the PCs hate him are mostly antagonistic.
"A single death is a tragedy, a million is just statistics"
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Not a great thread title choice…
But I am curious about the most commoners killed in one round. Setting aside "plot" methods like dropping a meteor somewhere, since that gets a little silly.
Since mythic is involved, I started by searching the mythic spells for "mile". Ninth rank augmented mythic Baleful Polymorph is probably the best you're going to get, turning everybody under 8HD in a one-mile radius into a fish. They'll still have a minute or two to hold their "breath", though.
If you don't mind ten rounds, mythic Tsunami will do pretty well, covering 1200ft. x 400 ft. at CL 20.
Less direct mythic options let you give everybody a likely-fatal disease, but that's well outside the one-round restriction.
The largest area of damage that I know of in one round is the Elemental Purist archetype for Kineticist that just came out. Twice-metamagic'd Elemental Apocalypse hits two 360ft. radius areas. It'll probably take out everybody up to at least 6th level without metamagic. Storm of Vengeance is a ninth-level spell that also hits a 360ft. radius, but it takes a few rounds to get going and doesn't do lethal-to-commoner until the fourth round, or the second if you use a metamagic rod to maximize it. Even then, it's a lot less damage.
I don't know if there's a monster that can top that, though- that's a little too much to go hunting through.
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I fear that, for the most part, the objective of killing as many people as possible and the objective of having the PCs hate him are mostly antagonistic.
"A single death is a tragedy, a million is just statistics"
For the concept to really stick looks like it is going to take a fair bit of advance time by the GM to get the players emotionally invested in the mob of common folk his villain is going to slaughter. 3-6 sessions' worth of investment.
Much easier to pluck at heart strings as suggested above re: puppies and kittens or the like. Killing a bunch of folk is one thing, killing off helpless pets is another. This is part of what makes goblins so readily despised with their racial hatred of dogs and horses...
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The thing about killing a town they've grown to love is that it'll only work once ever. After that, you've essentially trained your players to not get invested in your world if everyone is going to die.
I suggest mass killing is a bad way to get across that your BBEG is evil.
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Agreed, Odraude. Most BBEGs need subjects to lord over. Casually annihilating vast swathes of common folk doesn't endear one to the populace.
Better to ingratiate himself to the populace as a 'hero' by saving them from a staged assault by, say, a small gang of giants or something the 'hero' (villain) can gack single-handed, or a goblin assault, or the like.
"Sure, we have to pay Overlord Bob 15% off the top, but he keeps us safe!" "But you're starving." "We'll manage." "He sentenced that fellow to die in a gibbet!" "Firm but fair, right?" "His criminal enterprises addict people in the capitol!" "Sucks to be them. Hey, they're safe, right?"
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What's the greatest number of lvl 1 commoners you can kill in a round using just one character?
Circle of Death kills 1d4 HD (read: 1d4 commoners) per caster level. 40 ft burst is quite large, also. And it's just a level 6 spell.
If the BBEG's level is supposed to be lower, a good old fireball (level 3 spell) works also. Maybe make it appear in a more gruesome way...
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For killing an army of commoners, there's nothing more effective than the Blistering Feint/Distracting Cloak/Battle Poi combo.
Just let your BBEG stand completely visible in the middle of the army, presumably on a flying mount, and then he'll feint everyone at the same time... dealing "the weapon's fire damage" to everyone who can see the BBEG. Twice.
So.
Number of commoners affected: Everyone who aren't blind.
Investment: 4 feats and being of a certain race (5 feats if Human).
Damage: (1d8 + Str + Weapon Enchantment)x2
A fighter or brawler could pull this off at level 3.
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Only read the first post so not sure the direction the conversation has taken, but I've been putting ALOT of thought into how to preform terrorist attacks in pathfinder. Currently my favorite idea for the mass slaughter of lvl 1-6 commoners is perfectly doable, and is independent of le le. For 1530gp you can pay a level 17 wizard to cast explosive rune that is maximized, empowered, and furious. This rune can be written into any form of writing(sheet music, speech notes, royal decree, parade banner, ect.) That when read will detonate. The reader gets no save, and takes 60 dmg. Then all targets in a 10 ft area save for 1/2 dmg.
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And Presenting: Fun with Mid Level Spells
Wall of Fire from a 20th level caster can be 400 feet long and anything within 20 feet for a grand 2000 feet total hit. You'll probably only get kills in the first 10 feet though, so 1200 feet is more reasonable for an estimate kill zone. If we assume that everyone in the wall dies and your average target has 8 hp, 1/16 of the others will die. This kills 4 and 1/2 soldiers a level. If you maximize it, it could kill 12 a level and scar another 8. Widen doubles these numbers.
Transmute Rock to Mud while in a cave hits for 8d8 damage if cast on the ceiling. Two 10 foot cubes a level could give you 40 10 foot cubes. That would effect 400 square feet of ceiling at level 20. This would kill 8 soldiers a level if they can't share squares. With widen, an 8th level spell could kill 16 soldiers per caster level. The only downside is that they have to be in a cave.
If you're okay with it taking time, there's contagion or epidemic to hit an effectively infinite amount of soldiers.
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A level 18 siege gunner operating a Firewyrm can unleash a 90-foot cone of fire, as long as he has one grit. He can spend one grit for a dead shot (I think.) dealing 18d6, reflex for half.
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I'd rather not say this, actually, but my GM has had us seeking out & destroying a coven of child-eating hags. They were sending gargoyles into a town to steal said meals. It was a lot nastier on us players than if it had been ordinary people-eating hags...
So if what you want is player hatred, I'd kill a number of children. It doesn't have to be hundreds -- in fact, I think that our mental eyes just glaze over at crowd scenes. Even five or ten would do. But your BBEG has to establish motivation -- and reason for the PCs to suspect it's a habit that will continue unless they take the BBEG down. Now for the trick of getting five or ten small children together. The most repeatable, habitual attacks would focus on day care centers. Day-care centers. Golarion is wonderful in that women take all sorts of character classes -- but I've never heard what they do with their kids while they're off being clerics or town guards or bards.
If you've got an army in mind that needs killing, though -- if that scenario is locked in -- then be sure to not just talk about how many have died. Let the players see at least three specific characters die -- what they're wearing, what expression is on their face, what they do when they see death coming. Like I said, our mental eyes just glaze over at crowd scenes.
ETA: Killing soldiers isn't "genocide." It's war. Killing civilians, especially helpless civilians, is "genocide."
For killing an army of commoners, there's nothing more effective than the Blistering Feint/Distracting Cloak/Battle Poi combo.
Just let your BBEG stand completely visible in the middle of the army, presumably on a flying mount, and then he'll feint everyone at the same time... dealing "the weapon's fire damage" to everyone who can see the BBEG. Twice.
So.
Number of commoners affected: Everyone who aren't blind.
Investment: 4 feats and being of a certain race (5 feats if Human).
Damage: (1d8 + Str + Weapon Enchantment)x2
A fighter or brawler could pull this off at level 3.
That is an incredibly cheesy abuse of the weird RAW for feint and no sane GM should allow it on his table, neither on Player nor on NPC side.
I know it works RAW, but come on...
For killing an army of commoners, there's nothing more effective than the Blistering Feint/Distracting Cloak/Battle Poi combo.
Just let your BBEG stand completely visible in the middle of the army, presumably on a flying mount, and then he'll feint everyone at the same time... dealing "the weapon's fire damage" to everyone who can see the BBEG. Twice.
So.
Number of commoners affected: Everyone who aren't blind.
Investment: 4 feats and being of a certain race (5 feats if Human).
Damage: (1d8 + Str + Weapon Enchantment)x2
A fighter or brawler could pull this off at level 3.
That is an incredibly cheesy abuse of the weird RAW for feint and no sane GM should allow it on his table, neither on Player nor on NPC side.
I know it works RAW, but come on...
Hey, OP wanted the atom bomb of pathfinder.
So I gave him the most disgusting weapon I know of.Cheese
I would worry mostly about setting. The cleric who heals for free, invites them to a wedding of the local barmaid (or other familiar female NPC). The BB attacks during the wedding...
Cast Etheric Shards in a crowded area. Let the PCs watch the BBEG seemingly carving helpless townsfolk to ribbons as they panic, try to flee, and seal their fates. It's even more terrifying because nobody would know what's even happening.
i have used this in the past and it works as long as you have a Player you can trust to keep there mouth Shut. also don't use it very often
have a Player roll up two characters , and start playing with the Sacrificial one, after a session or 3 when people are invested in there characters arrange for your villain to ambush or take prisoner the players, and then have him Kill your Sacrificial PC as messily and graphically and easily as possible.
and you can even use a Lieutenant for the real villein as once your player have killed the Lieutenant, they will transfer the hate and loathing onto your Boss
this i found worked wonders in motivating my players into wanting to hunt him down and kill him.
note this is not for every campaign, and i would use it only if i was having trouble getting players involved,
the best way to kill an army, is with another army...
If you want your players to hate him just steal their items...
For killing an army of commoners, there's nothing more effective than the Blistering Feint/Distracting Cloak/Battle Poi combo.
Just let your BBEG stand completely visible in the middle of the army, presumably on a flying mount, and then he'll feint everyone at the same time... dealing "the weapon's fire damage" to everyone who can see the BBEG. Twice.
So.
Number of commoners affected: Everyone who aren't blind.
Investment: 4 feats and being of a certain race (5 feats if Human).
Damage: (1d8 + Str + Weapon Enchantment)x2
A fighter or brawler could pull this off at level 3.
That is an incredibly cheesy abuse of the weird RAW for feint and no sane GM should allow it on his table, neither on Player nor on NPC side.
I know it works RAW, but come on...
Hey, OP wanted the atom bomb of pathfinder.
So I gave him the most disgusting weapon I know of.Cheese
Does that even work though? I'd assume that the cloak counts as the "weapon" you are feinting with so Blistering Feint shouldn't apply unless the cloak itself deals fire damage.
So pay the extra cost to reslot it to weapon.Does that even work though? I'd assume that the cloak counts as the "weapon" you are feinting with so Blistering Feint shouldn't apply unless the cloak itself deals fire damage.For killing an army of commoners, there's nothing more effective than the Blistering Feint/Distracting Cloak/Battle Poi combo.
Just let your BBEG stand completely visible in the middle of the army, presumably on a flying mount, and then he'll feint everyone at the same time... dealing "the weapon's fire damage" to everyone who can see the BBEG. Twice.
So.
Number of commoners affected: Everyone who aren't blind.
Investment: 4 feats and being of a certain race (5 feats if Human).
Damage: (1d8 + Str + Weapon Enchantment)x2
A fighter or brawler could pull this off at level 3.
That is an incredibly cheesy abuse of the weird RAW for feint and no sane GM should allow it on his table, neither on Player nor on NPC side.
I know it works RAW, but come on...
Hey, OP wanted the atom bomb of pathfinder.
So I gave him the most disgusting weapon I know of.Cheese
Distracting in this case comes from Equipment Trick (Cloak) - Distracting Cloak, not the Distracting weapon property. You can't reassign feats to weapons they can't affect. Again, this is moot as soon as you have fire damage on the cloak, but I'm trying to figure out if battle poi (or any other fire damage weapon) are actually relevant for this exploit.
If the PCs have a beloved tavern or other populate locale, have the BBEG casually grab a pedestrian, then force him to swallow a delayed blast fireball bead before tossing him into the tavern and slamming the door shut behind him.
Not only will it create a horrific scene of fiery carnage, it will likely burn down the much loved building as well.