Duelist: Rapier or Scimitar?


Advice


Hey fellow forumers! The question is in the title, which weapon is better for a duelist? Scimitar lets you take dervish dance, but rapier lets you use precise strike and parry. A guide on duelist I read said that scimitar is better, but it doesn't let you use some class features. Why would it be better?

Grand Lodge

Dervish Dance allows you to use a Scimitar with all Duelist abilities.

The feat was literally created for it.


Oh, wow, I completely missed that. Now I feel bad making a thread for this. Thanks!

Grand Lodge

No problem.

Scarab Sages

The only reason to go rapier is if you would rather spend money than a feat on damage. An Agile Rapier will do almost everything for you that Dervish Dance will, and will let you use your off hand for something else if you need to. It's also more thematic for a duelist if style is important to you. It is a mechanically weaker option though, as you are not tied to a specific enchantment on a specific weapon with the feat.


Rapier. Scimitar is not finesse-able.


D_GENNEXT wrote:
Rapier. Scimitar is not finesse-able.

You are correct, it is not finnesseable. However:

Dervish Dance wrote:


Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.

Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.


D Gennext wrote:
Rapier. Scimitar is not finesse-able.

The scimitar can be used with Weapon Finesse if you have the Dervish Dance Feat...


Which is better for a duelist, human or goblin?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Depends on why you want the race?

(pet peeve, races are for flavour, not mechanics)


may I humbly suggest Snake Style unarmed combat?

You might not have an easy feat like Dervish Dance to use, but if you're a monk then Dex+Int+Wis to AC isn't all bad...


I'm taking the crane style feats. Monk doesn't really fit the character concept, so just the feats, no class levels in it. Goblins give a +4 to DEX, but humans give the bonus feat. Which is better mechanically? My main problem for goblins is that small weapons do less damage. Does that make that big of a difference?


Yes. And I can be messing stuff up at level 1 with my finesse-able Rapier or wait until level 2 (or possibly 3 depending on build) to be effective. I still say you're better off with the rapier.


Rapier = less feats required
Scimitar = less weapon properties required


The Dawnflower Dervish Bard archetype gets Dervish Dance for free at 1st level, no prerequisites...so scimitar, same Feats required, if you want to play a Bard Duellist that is, =)

Scarab Sages

Master of the Dark Triad wrote:
I'm taking the crane style feats. Monk doesn't really fit the character concept, so just the feats, no class levels in it. Goblins give a +4 to DEX, but humans give the bonus feat. Which is better mechanically? My main problem for goblins is that small weapons do less damage. Does that make that big of a difference?

Small size is a difference of .5 damage between a d4 and a d6. Reduced STR wont matter since you are using DEX for damage. You won't notice a difference in damage at all.


Dabbler wrote:

Rapier = less feats required

Scimitar = less weapon properties required

It's also a matter of practicality. I can finesse a rapier at level 1 or I can use my crappy Strength and hope to survive to level 2 or 3 (3 being more likely since you're also trying to knock out the Dodge and Mobility feat requirement of the Duelist).


D_GENNEXT wrote:
Yes. And I can be messing stuff up at level 1 with my finesse-able Rapier or wait until level 2 (or possibly 3 depending on build) to be effective. I still say you're better off with the rapier.

You start off at 1st level with a rapier. Then move to the scimitar later.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Another option (if you're using Golarion stuff)

Aldori Dueling sword.
With the Aldori dueling style, you gain everything but damage on a finessable slashing weapon that you can do duelist stuff with.

Scarab Sages

Or use a rapier until you get the feat, and then switch to scimitar. Edit: Ninjaed.


The campaign starts at 5. I'll have dervish dance by then, so survivability until then isn't a problem. So, Imbicatus, are you saying goblin is better?

Scarab Sages

I Hate Nickelback wrote:
The campaign starts at 5. I'll have dervish dance by then, so survivability until then isn't a problem. So, Imbicatus, are you saying goblin is better?

I'm saying mechanically, there is no drawbacks to a goblin duelist other than role-playing ones. A duelist gets it's damage from static bonuses, not weapon dice. Race is a flavor choice.


Would the bonus to AC and to hit rolls from a higher DEX and being small be worth losing a bonus feat?


Since you're starting at level 5 (a fact that was either not shared previously or that I missed) then either is equally viable. If you go the route of Rapier, you're out some gold. If you go Scimitar, you're out a feat slot. Personally, I'd rather spend the feat slot elsewhere.

Scarab Sages

Master of the Dark Triad wrote:
Would the bonus to AC and to hit rolls from a higher DEX and being small be worth losing a bonus feat?

That's up to you. In most situations, especially when starting from level 5, it's worth it. Also with a goblin, you can take the alternate racial trait to get a bite attack. That will allow you an extra attack per round to apply your duelist damage to. That's probably worth the feat alone.


Ok, thanks. I'll be a Gobbo.

Silver Crusade

One thing to keep in mind, the rapier with agile enhancement will make putting keen on it a +3 total costwise.
Whereas the scimitar route will give you the bonus of the agile enhancement to all scimitars wielded and will not cause your other enhancements to increase in cost.
This is not a defining factor so much as simply one to consider when making the choice. Keen is a nice bonus to have for the duelist.
If you have spent agile on it, the next bump is 11000 gold strong. of course there is the feat Improved Critical. That comes with a feat expenditure and a high bab requirement. So pros and cons.

Scimitar:
Con: One feat Dervish, you were going to have to take the Finesse feat either way. You cannot have a weapon or shield in your other hand.

Pros: You can start the game with dex to damage and hit along with keen on your weapon. Or if you don't care about keen, then something else or an item instead.

Rapier:
Pros: Feat to spend elsewhere, No requirement I am aware of regarding offhand.
Cons: spending gold on agile for dex to damage, Next bump such as keen will cost 11000 gold. Or a high bab feat that will be competing with other awesome feat choices at that level.

Of course, this in complete and total absence of story and concept just pure mechanics.

PS: with a gobbo I would do the scimitar route and if your bite came up enough get an AOMF with agile enchantment. Maybe even TWF with scimitar and bite. Things to consider.... Sounds fun either way.

Scarab Sages

Bite is a natural attack, you can take an attack with it at -5 with no feat needed as part of any full attack with weapons that isn't a monk flurry.

Silver Crusade

That's true so I guess two of the choices could be:

1: Full numerical adds to primary hit and negative five to bite, this costing no feats

2: Expending feat for TWF, and taking -2 to prime but also taking only -2 to bite. Hmmmm.... hard choice actually....

Good catch there.


For class go urban barbarian. Can rage for more dx, gets uncanny dodge nad improved uncanny dodge.

Race probably goblin, because st is not needed ever, get an additional mules cord enchantment for 1500 gp at some slot.

Shadow Lodge

important note about the off hand with a duelist:

"When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield."

As this is a major aspect of damage for your character it is worth noting. Also check with your GM, he may role that a bite falls into the same category as a weapon in your other hand.

Edit: also Urban Barbarian rocks for this idea. I have a duelist with no duelist levels. Just UB and Unarmed fighter. He is a wrecking ball.

Edit 2:
Don't go Goblin. You need a 13 strength to get power attack and can't use Piranha strike with the Scimitar. Assuming that feat is even available in your game.

Silver Crusade

"Bows to the sagely wisdom offered by others far more stronger in the force" :)


The scimitar is the best because you don't have to pay for dex damage. The rapier is still quite good, as is the light pick. I also like the dagger for it's ability to use precise strike at range. The Aldori Dueling Sword gets Dex to damage if you take one level in the prestige class, which is easily possible.

Also, Rangers can get power attack without meeting prerequisites if the choose the Two-Handed Style, ironically even if they never use a two handed weapon.

A duelist can TWF with the Thorn Bracer or a Blade Boot, or Unarmed with the Snake Style, since they keep the off hand free.

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