If so, how? Here is it's entry from Melee Tactics Toolbox
Source Melee Tactics Toolbox pg. 19 (Amazon)
Statistics
Cost 50 gp Weight 4 lbs.
Damage 2d3 (small), 2d4 (medium); Critical 18-20/x2; Range —; Type P; Special —
Description
An estoc is a sword about as long as a bastard sword, but designed exclusively for thrusting attacks. Its “blade” is a steel spike with a triangular, square, or hexagonal crosssection. Like the bastard sword, an estoc requires special training to use it one handed, but it can also be wielded as a two-handed martial weapon. When you wield an estoc with one hand, treat it as a one-handed weapon; when you wield an estoc with two hands, treat it as a two-handed weapon. If you can use the estoc proficiently with one hand, you can also use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls when wielding an estoc sized for you with one or two hands, even though it isn’t a light weapon.
Description says you can apply Weapon Finesse (though I believe you must have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency first?).
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The only method that would work that I can think of is Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training.
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Fighters (as noted above) and vigilantes both have options to increase their damage when using Dexterity to hit and Strength to damage.
Other than that, the only options I know of are unchained rogue (per Claxon's suggestion) and the agile weapon enhancement. ^_^
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Tengu Unchained Rogue could easily do it. It is called a sword, so through their Sword Training they should be proficient with it.
Honestly though, it really isn't worth EWP feat to become proficient with it. You could use a rapier one-handed and get dex to damage with Unchained or Agile or Fencing Grace, or a Scimitar with Slashing Grace. However, with Fencing Grace or Slashing Grace you can't two weapon fight or have anything in your off-hand, so it's often better to just build a strength based character and wield a weapon in two-hands, unless you're a Swashbuckler.
Fighters (as noted above) and vigilantes both have options to increase their damage when using Dexterity to hit and Strength to damage.
Other than that, the only options I know of are unchained rogue (per Claxon's suggestion) and the agile weapon enhancement. ^_^
I wasn't certain the Estoc would qualify for Agile, but it appears it may...
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
It is already usable with Weapon Finesse (if you have the EWP feat), so it should qualify. Too bad we cannot figure out a feat chain usable, though.
Honestly though, it really isn't worth EWP feat to become proficient with it. You could use a rapier one-handed and get dex to damage with Unchained or Agile or Fencing Grace, or a Scimitar with Slashing Grace. However, with Fencing Grace or Slashing Grace you can't two weapon fight or have anything in your off-hand, so it's often better to just build a strength based character and wield a weapon in two-hands, unless you're a Swashbuckler.
True. As a historian (well, geography teacher) I find some of the more exotic weapons fascinating. Particularly those from Europe.
Fighters (as noted above) and vigilantes both have options to increase their damage when using Dexterity to hit and Strength to damage.
Other than that, the only options I know of are unchained rogue (per Claxon's suggestion) and the agile weapon enhancement. ^_^
I wasn't certain the Estoc would qualify for Agile, but it appears it may...
** spoiler omitted **It is already usable with Weapon Finesse (if you have the EWP feat), so it should qualify. Too bad we cannot figure out a feat chain usable, though.
Is there a particular reason why you want the Estoc over the Scimitar or Rapier with the feats that I mentioned?
What build are you trying to make? We can probably help you.
Honestly though, it really isn't worth EWP feat to become proficient with it. You could use a rapier one-handed and get dex to damage with Unchained or Agile or Fencing Grace, or a Scimitar with Slashing Grace. However, with Fencing Grace or Slashing Grace you can't two weapon fight or have anything in your off-hand, so it's often better to just build a strength based character and wield a weapon in two-hands, unless you're a Swashbuckler.True. As a historian (well, geography teacher) I find some of the more exotic weapons fascinating. Particularly those from Europe.
Unless it's for PFS I'm a big fan of using whatever weapon mechanically that you need to make your build work and calling it whatever you want. As long as your GM knows what it actually is you can imagine it whatever way you like in your headcannon and tell all the other characters that it is whatever you want it to be.
Pathfinder and D&D really don't do a great job with different weapons, 90% of them could be removed or condensed down into one weapon with no one caring, as long as they could describe it however they want.
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I built a vigilante with it, to play to Lethal Grace's advantages. ^_^
In semi-related news, the estoc is another example of how terrible the spiked chain has become. You could drop it to a one-handed weapon and it'd basically be tolerable (plus, you could make some really interesting swashbucklers).
I built a vigilante with it, to play to Lethal Grace's advantages. ^_^
In semi-related news, the estoc is another example of how terrible the spiked chain has become. You could drop it to a one-handed weapon and it'd basically be tolerable (plus, you could make some really interesting swashbucklers).
You mean you built a Vigilante with an Estoc and lethal grace, which used both strength and dex? I guess that would work okay. But you're only gaining 50% more strength by wielding the estoc two handed (which your strength is going to be comparatively since you're using dex to hit). Otherwise you could just wield a kukri and TWF. You lose a little damage dice but otherwise it would work quite well. And it appears Lethal Grace gets multiplied on a critical hit so this would actually work quite well.
It works a lot like the Fighter's Trained Grace Advanced Weapon Training ability, but again it's really only useful if you plan to TWF. And then the Estoc loses out because it's not a light weapon, but 1 handed.
DEX-to-damage is the numerically inferior choice, so going 2H with Power Attack, particularly with a Vigilante, is probably the best route. If you wanna sink a feat in EWP and pick up Lethal Grace, it works out pretty well too.
An unchained rogue two-handing an estoc can do a lot of damage, since you get 1.5 DEX to damage last i looked and it has that nice 18-20 crit.
An unchained rogue two-handing an estoc can do a lot of damage, since you get 1.5 DEX to damage last i looked and it has that nice 18-20 crit.
Sources for Rogue damage that care about crit:
- Uh...
End of list.
2H damage for a Rogue is pretty disgusting. TWF is ridiculously better. Hell, the attack bonus from something like Possessed Hand is better than the extra damage from 1.5x DEX.
Can you get Dex to Damage with it?
As I know, the Dervish Dance class feature from the Whirling Dervish (Swashbuckler archetype) should add Dex to damage with the estoc.
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An unchained rogue two-handing an estoc can do a lot of damage, since you get 1.5 DEX to damage last i looked and it has that nice 18-20 crit.Sources for Rogue damage that care about crit:
- Uh...
End of list.
2H damage for a Rogue is pretty disgusting. TWF is ridiculously better. Hell, the attack bonus from something like Possessed Hand is better than the extra damage from 1.5x DEX.
I never thought I'd live to see the day somebody said a TWF rogue was mathematically superior to a 2H rogue.
Two handing is good if the rogue has trouble setting up sneak attack....but considering that is a rogue's main combat ability he should be working very heard to get that sneak attack. If you are getting sneak attack, you really want TWF to maximize the damage.
A two-handed URogue is going to have 50% more dex damage and 2-3 points higher to hit than a TWF (due to weapon enhancement and TWF penalties).
A TWF rogue can do more damage, but is much more dependent on getting an initial sneak attack to trigger the AC debuff and more dependent on sneak attack as a damage source.
Under optimal conditions the TWF is better, in practical experience the THF is easier to function okay.
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Two handing is good if the rogue has trouble setting up sneak attack....but considering that is a rogue's main combat ability he should be working very heard to get that sneak attack. If you are getting sneak attack, you really want TWF to maximize the damage.
A two-handed URogue is going to have 50% more dex damage and 2-3 points higher to hit than a TWF (due to weapon enhancement and TWF penalties).
A TWF rogue can do more damage, but is much more dependent on getting an initial sneak attack to trigger the AC debuff and more dependent on sneak attack as a damage source.
Under optimal conditions the TWF is better, in practical experience the THF is easier to function okay.
Of course the Rogue should be setting up Sneak Attack at every opportunity and their allies should be helping them accomplish it. However, math does not account for everything. How often do you have to move to reach a flanking position? Is making that Full Attack a good choice when there's another enemy adjacent that will Full Attack you back next round? Are you in a narrow corridor or fighting the enemy at a choke point and unable to reach the front lines? How often do you fight enemies with DR or those who are immune to Sneak Attack? If your allies are helping you, do their spells require saves and do you often fight enemies with high saves? Are they sacrificing spell slots which could be used to end fights quickly to enable your damage? How high is your HP/AC, and how long do you survive in melee combat?
I ran the PFS scenario Return to Sky as a 1-shot for my friend last month and built an UnRogue who used an Estoc but also had a sidearm for TWF and dealing with range. Hardness wasn't an issue on Sneak Attacks due to the archetype chosen too. What I saw was that TWF allowed him to deal higher damage if every attack hit and if every attack got Sneak Attack damage. Enemies frequently fought the PC (a Barbarian) in choke points and he would have to move up to get to an enemy (many had ranged attack options at that level). The group had an Arcanist who could reliably set up Sneak Attack for him, but due to the aforementioned issues he rarely got to Full Attack anything and his TWF damage was low as a result. However, switching to 2H Estoc allowed him to deal consistently reliable damage that outpaced TWF by a long shot. It was barely a contest.
So sure, in the most optimal situations TWF do outdamage 2H, but one cannot just point to the numbers without considering the situational obstacles. Time and time again TWF's advantage is negated by positioning, DR, reliance on Full Attacks, enemy immunities, and a lack of flexibility.
Well I can tell you I'm not crying about 'mathematic superiority' with my UC Rogue 6/Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 4 using the Elven Branched Spear for reach and 1.5 Dex damage.
I'm doing it because I could and because it's fun.
...Okay? Hats off to you?
I had a halfling UC rogue use an elven branched spear with the gang-up feat, that was pretty awesome.
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...Okay? Hats off to you?Well I can tell you I'm not crying about 'mathematic superiority' with my UC Rogue 6/Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 4 using the Elven Branched Spear for reach and 1.5 Dex damage.
I'm doing it because I could and because it's fun.
Thank you for the condescension.
I had posted it in response to those that are, instead of answering the question, telling the OP why it is a bad idea, or that it is 'not the right choice'.
So sure, in the most optimal situations TWF do outdamage 2H, but one cannot just point to the numbers without considering the situational obstacles. Time and time again TWF's advantage is negated by positioning, DR, reliance on Full Attacks, enemy immunities, and a lack of flexibility.
Which is exactly why I said in practical experience THF is easier.
Under optimal conditions the TWF is better, in practical experience the THF is easier to function okay.
...Okay? Hats off to you?Well I can tell you I'm not crying about 'mathematic superiority' with my UC Rogue 6/Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 4 using the Elven Branched Spear for reach and 1.5 Dex damage.
I'm doing it because I could and because it's fun.
Thank you for the condescension.
I had posted it in response to those that are, instead of answering the question, telling the OP why it is a bad idea, or that it is 'not the right choice'.
And I appreciate it. I just wanted to explore options/possibilities. I'm not so much an optimizer as I am a role-player (no, I do NOT believe those two are entirely exclusive, so I do NOT want a RP/Optimizer debate in this thread...). I imagine a theme I want to achieve and explore how to flesh it out. This just happened to be a question I had to facilitate the process. Thanks again.
So sure, in the most optimal situations TWF do outdamage 2H, but one cannot just point to the numbers without considering the situational obstacles. Time and time again TWF's advantage is negated by positioning, DR, reliance on Full Attacks, enemy immunities, and a lack of flexibility.Which is exactly why I said in practical experience THF is easier.
Under optimal conditions the TWF is better, in practical experience the THF is easier to function okay.
Right, we come to the same conclusion. I was responding to the first sentence and elaborating on why I feel that 2H is better than TWF in almost every scenario. Practical experience shows that 2H is more reliable, and the benefit gained from using TWF is all but completely offset by the difficulty of getting to the optimal situation.
...Okay? Hats off to you?Well I can tell you I'm not crying about 'mathematic superiority' with my UC Rogue 6/Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 4 using the Elven Branched Spear for reach and 1.5 Dex damage.
I'm doing it because I could and because it's fun.
Thank you for the condescension.
I had posted it in response to those that are, instead of answering the question, telling the OP why it is a bad idea, or that it is 'not the right choice'.
Using the quoted term "mathematic superiority", which was from my own post, led me to believe it was a response to myself. Your post came off as "role vs roll" in that context, so I didn't think it added to the discussion and responded as such. My bad.