This is a question regarding an exceptionally dumb build I am working on for fun. The idea is a Titan Fighter/Titan Mauler that TFWs with two handed weapons meant for a creature larger than themselves.
The idea is to stack Giant Weapon Wielder with Jotungrip, taking a -4 for using a Two Handed Weapon meant for a larger creature, taking -2 for using a Two Handed Weapon in each hand as a one handed weapon, and lastly taking a -4 penalty to hit from TWF with one handed weapons.
So far, I think I am in the clear as far as rules go. However, the catch comes at Level 3 of Titan Mauler and their ability, Massive Weapons which reads: "She can use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4."
So I already have the ability to use Two Handed weapons meant for creatures on size larger (Giant Weapon Wielder from Titan Fighter 1) however Massive Weapons (Ex) says that the penalty for using these weapons is INCREASED by four. Now normally this is related to the penalty for using an inappropriately sized weapon (-2) but would I take this penalty in addition to the penalty from Giant Weapon Wielder? Should I take the lower of the two penalties? Should I take the higher?
This is my conundrum, and your assistance would be appreciated in solving this rules riddle.
doesn't work.
Jotungrip : ...The weapon must be appropriately sized for her...
Large greatsword isn't appropriately sized for a medium barbarian, even if they are capable of wielding it.
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The idea is to stack Giant Weapon Wielder with Jotungrip, taking a -4 for using a Two Handed Weapon meant for a larger creature, taking -2 for using a Two Handed Weapon in each hand as a one handed weapon, and lastly taking a -4 penalty to hit from TWF with one handed weapons.
If I understand correctly, assuming your character is Medium sized you want to wield one Two-Handed Weapon intended for a Large size creature in each hand. Neither archetype, nor the combination of the two, gives you the ability to do that.
So I already have the ability to use Two Handed weapons meant for creatures on size larger (Giant Weapon Wielder from Titan Fighter 1) however Massive Weapons (Ex) says that the penalty for using these weapons is INCREASED by four. Now normally this is related to the penalty for using an inappropriately sized weapon (-2) but would I take this penalty in addition to the penalty from Giant Weapon Wielder? Should I take the lower of the two penalties? Should I take the higher?
"increased by" means add... the normal penalty of 2 plus 4, for a total penalty of 6 for a Medium creature using both hands to wield a Two-Handed Weapon intended for a Large creature.
Now, that said... since the Titan Fighter ability does the same thing with only an additional -2 (-4 total) penalty, you could use that ability instead.
The Titan Fighter / Titan Mauler penalties at each level for a Large Two-Handed weapon (wielded in both hands) would be;
1 - 4 / NA
3 - 3 / 5
6 - 3 / 4
7 - 2 / 4
9 - 2 / 3
11- 1 / 3
12- 1 / 2
15- 0 / 1
Thus, it looks like the Titan Fighter penalties would always be lower and you should just use those if you have both. The only time Titan Mauler would be better is if you were using a Light or One-Handed weapon intended for a Large creature... and then only at 6th level.
doesn't work.
Jotungrip : ...The weapon must be appropriately sized for her...
Large greatsword isn't appropriately sized for a medium barbarian, even if they are capable of wielding it.
...
Damn it. That is lame. I know it exists to stop them from using large two handed weapons from the Massive Weapons class feature but if they are capable of wielding it from outside the class then they should be allowed >_>
There goes my Halfling duel wielding greatswords larger than they are :(
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The two archetypes mostly don't stack. I have considered taking a one level dip in Titan Mauler, for big game hunter (ex) and rage (ex), both of which would be wonderful abilities for the Titan Fighter and stack very well with their other abilites.
As for your halfling concept, just take the Titan Mauler and dual wield Bastard Swords. Visually, it would be just as impressive.
Though personally, I think the entire idea is foolish, as your attack rolls would suffer so much that it wouldn't be worth it to have the Titan Mauler dual wielding.
So, in the theme of stacking things while wielding oversided weapons...
If you took the Giant-blooded campaign trait, which halves the penalty for wielding oversized weapons, how would that work with these classes?
Would you halve the penalty, then start reducing for the class features? Or apply the class feature reduction then halve?
So, in the theme of stacking things while wielding oversided weapons...
If you took the Giant-blooded campaign trait, which halves the penalty for wielding oversized weapons, how would that work with these classes?
Would you halve the penalty, then start reducing for the class features? Or apply the class feature reduction then halve?
I don't think you will find the order of operation specified in RAW.
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So, in the theme of stacking things while wielding oversided weapons...
If you took the Giant-blooded campaign trait, which halves the penalty for wielding oversized weapons, how would that work with these classes?
Would you halve the penalty, then start reducing for the class features? Or apply the class feature reduction then halve?
Giant Blooded could reduce the oversized penalty, but it wouldn't reduce other penalties. The class remain not very compatible, but one by:
Titan Mauler, while wielding a normal size two-handed weapon in one hand wouldn't be affected by the above at all. That would via the Jotungrip (Ex) ability. When using Massive Weapons (Ex) (which is not compatible with Jotungrip), the Titan Mauler would be at -1 instead of -2 for each size catagorey the weapon was larger than themselves, and this total penalty, would be reduced by 1 at third and at again at every 3 levels after.
So at 3rd, wielding a Large weapon would only be -1 penalty for your halfling. Mind you, this would have to be a Large, normally light weapon, so it could be a two handed weapon for your halfling. So your two-handed daggers would be -1 to attack.
Titan Fighter is normal -4 attack with their oversized two handed weapons. -2 of this is the class feature, and -2 is the size penalty. The trait would reduce the size penalty by half, which would make it -3 to attack with the oversized two handed weapon.
You won't. Also, often (always?) when it comes up you take the "worse for you" way.
I would agree with you if you said, "You won't. Also, the DM should pick one and apply it consistently."
I can understand if the rule isn't explicit, that the DM needs to make a call, but the rule shouldn't change from one time to another. It should be consistent.
Not what I meant.
I didn't mean consistent in "always worse for you." I meant consistent like "subtract reduction then halve."
Doing things one way to get the worse result, then doing them a different way to get the worse result in a different situation doesn't make sense. The rule should be consistent, even if the DM just has to pick one and stick with it.
I believe James is saying that when we get official clarification it's been "use the worse option" even if that means flip-flopping on stuff to make it always the worse option you do.
I don't believe he's saying that a GM should rule such. But that as players assume and expect the worse for everything.
