| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You are not wrong.
Calcific Touch can be very powerful for a magus.
Except most things will die before you do enough dexterity damage to immobilize them.
2) I'm not actually "holding the charge" because calcific touch has a duration
That doesn't actually matter. The spell is still a Touch spell as shown in its range designation. You may be confusing this with produce flame, which is not a touch spell.
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
So, the magus could use spell combat to deliver CT with his weapon and then follow it up with his weapon again. But following that he would be stuck attacking once per round with it until he casts another spell. I supposed he could go into round 2 delivering the CT as a weapon attack and then casting another spell, which wipes out the CT.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am inclined to disagree.
With Calcific Touch you are not holding a charge. It is a duration spell operating under its own rules, as defined within the spell.
Ask yourself: How many charges is the caster holding?
The answer is, none. The spell has no specified number of times it can be discharged. It has only a duration and a restriction on number of uses/round.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Regardless of your inclination, the spell remains a "Touch" spell (as defined by its range descriptor), and you are "holding its charge" for up to the duration of the spell (13 rounds in this case)... Meaning it must obey all of the rules of touch spells unless noted otherwise. As it does not note otherwise in its description, you cannot cast other spells while it is in effect without dissipating Calcific Touch.
After casting Calcific Touch, the caster is holding a touch spell; with a duration based upon level (instead of dissipating upon discharge like Inflict Wounds), and a limit of 1 discharge per round (instead of up to their caster level in discharges like Chill Touch).
The spell does indeed have a specified number of discharges, that number is equal to 1 per round, the limited duration sets the maximum number of discharges to 13 for a magus of that level.
Spells such as Inflict Wounds do not have to specify they can only be discharged once because that is part of the base mechanic for touch spells, and all spells with a range descriptor of Touch have to follow all of those rules unless noted otherwise by their descriptions: such as chill touch allowing multiple discharges, or calcific touch having a duration and a limit on discharges per round.
I agree with Melkiador. It's a touch range spell, and it's not completely discharged on the round you cast it. Therefore the rule Melkiador quoted applies. That it also has some additional rules in the spell itself that governs it's behavior is no matter. If you cast another spell you lose any remaining duration on Calcific Touch.
This is almost like Occam's Razor, but if there are two logical interpretations of a rule and one of those interpretations is overly powerful or weak, while the other interpretation is average. You should always make the assumption that the average interpretation is the correct one.
Regardless of your inclination, the spell remains a "Touch" spell (as defined by its range descriptor), and you are "holding its charge" for up to the duration of the spell (13 rounds in this case)... Meaning it must obey all of the rules of touch spells unless noted otherwise. As it does not note otherwise in its description, you cannot cast other spells while it is in effect without dissipating Calcific Touch.
Answer the question I posted.
If I am holding charges, how many am I holding?
As no charges are being held, the rules for holding charges are not applicable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At what point in the rules for holding a touch a touch attack does it reference a number of charges?
At what point in the rules for holding a touch a touch attack does it reference a number of charges?
Umm ... the rules are under the heading Holding a Charge.
Calcific touch is not an instantaneous spell, unlike other touch spells that are strictly limited by number of charges. Or that discharge each time an object/creature is touched.
In fact, nothing else from the rules found under Holding a Charge are applicable to Calcific Touch. Everything else has been explicitly changed by the spell.
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
At the time of the casting of the spell, the Magus is holding the charge, and once he touches his target, the spell is applied to the target and the spell is no longer being held by the magus ("discharged"). If you cast another spell prior to this discharge of the spell, it dissipates.
At the time of the casting of the spell, the Magus is holding the charge, and once he touches his target, the spell is applied to the target and the spell is no longer being held by the magus ("discharged"). If you cast another spell prior to this discharge of the spell, it dissipates.
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Except, in the case of Calcific Touch, the spell is still in effect. The spell is based on duration, not number of creatures touched (with the limitation of 1/round.)
You cannot target more creatures than you have rounds of duration, but successfully touching a creature is not what brings the spell to an end.
Except, in the case of Calcific Touch, the spell is still in effect. The spell is based on duration, not number of creatures touched (with the limitation of 1/round.)
You cannot target more creatures than you have rounds of duration, but successfully touching a creature is not what brings the spell to an end.
It doesn't bring the spell to an end, it applies it to the target (discharges). And at that point, you are no longer holding the spell. You don't get to apply the spell with successful touch attacks for the entire duration of the spell.
That is what is meant by "You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged".
Calcific touch does not have the caveat that it can be used to touch multiple targets for it's entire duration like Chill Touch. It is a one target only spell.
Calcific touch does not have the caveat that it can be used to touch multiple targets for it's entire duration like Chill Touch. It is a one target only spell.
One target per round.
You could touch a different opponent each round.
Probably not a good idea unless you are in a room full of oozes.
Answer the question I posted.
Oh but I did, you just didn't like the answer.
To quote myselfAfter casting Calcific Touch, the caster is holding a touch spell; with a duration based upon level (instead of dissipating upon discharge like Inflict Wounds), and a limit of 1 discharge per round (instead of up to their caster level in discharges like Chill Touch).
Answer the question I posted.Oh but I did, you just didn't like the answer.
To quote myselfAfter casting Calcific Touch, the caster is holding a touch spell; with a duration based upon level (instead of dissipating upon discharge like Inflict Wounds), and a limit of 1 discharge per round (instead of up to their caster level in discharges like Chill Touch).
Exactly my point.
The spell is duration based, not charge based.
Charges, and holding them, plays no role in how the spell functions.
The spell is duration based, not charge based.
Charges, and holding them, plays no role in how the spell functions.
There really isn't such a thing as "charge based" in the rules
Calcific touch is a touch spell and its charge can be held. Hence, it still falls under the general rule of "If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates."
The spell is duration based, not charge based.
Charges, and holding them, plays no role in how the spell functions.
There really isn't such a thing as "charge based" in the rules
Calcific touch is a touch spell and its charge can be held. Hence, it still falls under the general rule of "If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates."
With Calcific Touch, you hold nothing. The spell can be discharged once/round for the duration regardless of how many opponents you strike.
Calcific touch does not have the caveat that it can be used to touch multiple targets for it's entire duration like Chill Touch. It is a one target only spell.One target per round.
You could touch a different opponent each round.
Probably not a good idea unless you are in a room full of oozes.
You know, somehow I just completely missed the "target" line in the spell. I need to stop just glancing at things. Geez.
This is correct. One target per round for the duration of the spell, and you can apply the spell each round to the same target for the 1d4 dex damage and slow effect.
I do not know what I was reading in my earlier responses. :/
However, I'm still not sold on the "if you cast another spell", Calcific Touch dissipates or not. That is questionable.
I'm not sure there is precedent in Pathfinder for being able to apply multiple spells that are applied via touch at the same time.
With Calcific Touch, you hold nothing...
You insistence, though admirable, doesn't change the rules of the game. Pathfinder puts things into strange boxes sometimes, and this is an example of that. All spells with a range of Touch fall under the rules for "Holding a Charge" unless noted otherwise, and the spell in question does not note otherwise. It is as simple as that.
By the way, in order to "discharge" something, it must first hold a "charge". It is right there in the word. Furthermore, the phrase "Holding a Charge" doesn't refer to physically holding a thing, it refers to retaining or keeping the thing available. Its the same as how a cell-phone battery "holds" an electrical charge, or how the police can "hold" you on murder charges; in neither of the above examples is anyone actually physically grasping the thing being referred to.
I'm not sure there is precedent in Pathfinder for being able to apply multiple spells that are applied via touch at the same time.
That is not difficult. Use spell trigger items instead of casting.
A magus could use wands to stack multiple touch spells. Or cast Chill Touch on the opening round of a fight and use the wand wielder arcana on subsequent rounds to generate extra attacks via Touch of Fatigue or Arcane Mark on a wand.
Furthermore, the phrase "Holding a Charge" doesn't refer to physically holding a thing, it refers to retaining or keeping the thing available. Its the same as how a cell-phone battery "holds" an electrical charge, or how the police can "hold" you on murder charges; in neither of the above examples is anyone actually physically grasping the thing being referred to.
I never implied using another definition. It would be silly to assert you were physically holding the spell as an item.
|
It is open to debate if spells that give you x uses of a touch attack over X time require you to held the charge or not.
If we go back to 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, you aren't holding a charge. The spells that existed at the time and now are instantaneous spells that allow you to hold a charge in those edition of the game were instantaneous, single attempt, hit or miss spells.
There was instead a small number of spells that gave you a touch attack with a duration, and that was fully stackable, without any problem with holding a charge.
Sadly, it has never been explained how that kind of spells work in the d20 version of the game.
Both interpretations are reasonable, and generally non so powerful as someone seem to think.
Without the dev input both interpretations work.
Edit:
this is curious, why a 4 month old thread was one of the first in the forum?
Please return to your proper place my weary friend.