Killer Crocostrictor - Grapple druid+ Critique please

[Apraham Lincoln]

So ive been looking again at building a grapple based druid monk but since the change of imp Nat Att and Feral combat training since protos FoF guide i thought it was defunct. But looking again and some odd choices i think i have something that might work at 11th level and may even be pfs (not that familiar with pfs so dont hold your breath) and all done without INA or FCT.

Initial race choice: This is a really feat starved build so you would think human. But there are so few feats needed that are low enough level that i dont think its worth it. This build is with dwarf stats in mind as CON and WIS are close 2ndary stats and at certain points WIS may even be better than STR. slow and steady and hardy traits are very handy to have. If you go human you have another feat. Enjoy it :)

Traits: Beast of society is just great for druids. Birthmark is good as much needed resistance to charms and takes care of divine focus requirments.

Levels 1-4::

Druid. Almost any archtype that doesnt alter wildshape (you need it to start at 4th level) or stop you choosing animal domains.
I recommend Blight druid. You need to take crocodile domain. This gets you a little crocy familiar and the excellent deathroll ability. Does this allow you to grapple large targets? I dont know but it seems to. Even if you only get the bonus damage and bonus to grapple check it would still be good. And savage jaw as a domain spell. Check with your gm but croc domain is still good.
The feats you choose here at 1st and 3rd level are meh and to be re-trained at 4 and 8 so really they can be anything
AT 4th level you can start to wildshape.

Mostly shileighly. hit things.

Level 5-7::

Unchained Monk. You are here for WIS to dex as you will never be armoured and (thanks to being dwarf) never encumbered. Unarmed strike is here giving us a 1D6 strike and a decent and easy to use flurry. evasion, fast movement, stunning fist ki strike and ki power are just gravy at this point. it has to be unchained as we really need the high BAB to qualify for feats. pick up imp grapple (yay) and combat reflexes (meh) as bonus feats.
Feats. At 5th, retrain your 1st level feat into shaping focus (remember points in know nature) Get kraken style (adds WIS to grapple check damage)at 5 and greater grapple at 7. thats a sweet +4 to grapple and another +2 on top to maintain a grapple. you wildshape into large creatures using UAS (now at 1d8 for large) to start grapples or flurry as you see fit. The natural attacks of the form are largely irrelevant.

More grapple uses now in wildshape forms and you get grab. Start to use the briliant scale spikes druid spell giving you +1 armour spikes that you are proficient with. they add 1d8+1(as large) damage to grapples

Level 8-9::

Brawler (strangler). Only here for the sweet sweet combat feats. Doesnt normally stack with monk but as we are traidng out both flurry and UAS from brawler i dont suppose it matters. What we do get is 2D6 sneak attack that we can always do in a grapple. We also get to keep our DEX in a grapple helping survivability.

You now start to wildshape into large forms now and constrict comes online. Retrain you 3rd level feat into Final Embrace at 8th (you should be eligable, this maybe a sticking point. if not buy a belt of anaconda coils.) Bonus feat gets us final embrace horror. level 9 feat picks up kracken wreck style feat to get another +4 to grapple damage and maybe wreck armour/weapons (more about this later)
You will only be eligable to use the final embrace line of feats if you wildshape into a form that has constrict. final embrace gives you grab and constrict but doesnt say on which attack you get grab.As you can use your UAS as your constrict damage then i think you can use your UAS as having grab. If not grapple as normal. Grab and constrict upto our size.

You will now be wildshaping into huge forms with constrict. Your unarmed attack routine will be +8/+8/+3 with a flurry all maybe with grab. unarmed damage and constrict damage will be 2d6. armour spikes will now be doing 2D6+1 extra damage on a grapple. And 2D6 sneak attack. And WIS+4. maybe you will cast aspect of bear for +4 CMB, maybe vine strike for extra 1d6 damage. And you havent even used martial training yet.

Level 10 and 11: :

Sacred fist warpriest. These might as well count as more monk levels for the purposes of UAS, AC bonus and flurry (although flurry wont really work as we already have UcM flurry and wont get enough combined levels to gets us a 2nd extra attack). Nice few uses of fervor for swift cleric buffs.
at 11th you will finally have enough BAB to pick up final embrace master and you can use MT to pick up rapid grappler.
Darkness and scalykind blessings give us blur and +1 nat AC.

You will now be attacking as a huge creature (who may or may not be able to grapple colossal creatures with death roll) with an unarmed strike 3D6, 6D6 constrict 2d6 in a grapple sneak attack, 2d6 armour spikes. adding wis+4 as a standard, move and swift actions with a +4 to grapple and more to maintain. and they're shaken on top. thats without wands of strong jaw or greater scale spikes.

Where you go from here after is open. You could go 4 more levels of druid. gets you powerful build, definitly allowing the grappling of colossal creatures. It may even stack with death roll as one is a virtual size increase and the other effects how much bigger than you a traget must be to grapple. Also freses you from the use of wands of SJ and G ScSp. and adds 1D6 from croc domain.
You could get 1 more levels of UnMk, getting still mind and opening up monastic legacy. 1 more level of sacred fist gets to fort save for 0 stalwart ability and a style feat at 6th. both continue to advance UAS. At 2oth level i recommend 8 levels of druid, 2 levels or brawler, 6 levels of scared fist and 4 levels of unchained monk. with monks robe you will be getting 2d6 unarmed (4d6 huge) with 7 combined levels of monk and sac fist.

You should also consider deadly grappler feat to increase damge die of armour spikes in a grapple and maybe you want natural spell to cast.

Small note on FCB: Druid gets more deathrolls: Monk and brawler get ability to ignore hardness of stone/rock/metal etc. Kracken wreck allows you to do a crush attack doing unarmed damage to armour and a bonus to ignore armour. if these work together (im not sure they would but it would be nice if someone got some use out of these FCBs that i might allow it) then maybe that could be a nice extra treat/combo. Otherwise get HPs

Is my logic sound? any mistakes? anything im missing

[avr]

Final embrace now requires constrict as a racial ability, so there's basically no way to get it as a PC.

If you're going to be retraining feats, why is it a problem that the human feat is one acquired when you have zero BAB?

[Just a Mort]

Quotes, avr on it having to be a race. Final embrace states creature with constrict ability. You're a creature, however you get your constrict ability - wild shape into a croc for 24h, wear an anacondas belt...etc. if you can do it, as long as you qualify for the feat - you should get the benefits of it.

[avr]

It's in the errata to Ultimate Combat.

ultimate combat errata, page 5 wrote:

In the Final Embrace feat, in the Prerequisites entry, after “special attack” add “as a racial ability”.

[Apraham Lincoln]

The barebones of it can be done without the human bonus feat. What is holding it back in terms of feats is the high level requirements. If you human thats great but it can be done without. choose any race, knock yourself out :)

There is always reincarnate 100, dms choice ;)

As i said its not really for pfs as it comes online really at level 11 but if you can swing the final embrace line then its worth it.

[Just a Mort]

Oh dear. Sneaky errata creeped up on me and I didn't know it :(

[Scott Wilhelm]

avr wrote:

It's in the errata to Ultimate Combat.

ultimate combat errata, page 5 wrote:

In the Final Embrace feat, in the Prerequisites entry, after “special attack” add “as a racial ability”.

Apraham Lincoln can Wildshape into a Giant Octopus, and gain Grab and Constrict that way.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Apraham Lincoln wrote:

ive been looking again at building a grapple based druid monk

I've given a lot of thought to both Wildshape and Grappling builds and to combining them. I have a lot to say.

For starters, what rule set are you using? Is this for Pathfinder Society?

Apraham Lincoln wrote:

Is my logic sound? any mistakes? anything im missing

Since you are thinking of taking at least 1 level in Brawler, anyway, take it at level 1. You get Max hit points at level 1. If that is a level in Brawler, you get 10 hp instead of 8 for Druid. You hit Level 4 Druid at level 5 now, allowing you to take Shaping Focus the moment you get Wild Shape.

Or take Natural Spell at level 5 and Shaping Focus at level 7. Most Druids consider Natural Spell to be an absoulutely essential Feat. That's the one that lets you cast spells while in Wildshape. In concept, that might not be the case for your character, since it's a Druidzilla, not a Druid. But you should work it in your plans just in case.

Apraham Lincoln wrote:

but since the change of imp Nat Att and Feral combat training

Feral Combat Training no longer lets you apply Monk Unarmed Strike Damage to your Natural Attacks, but you can still apply Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage to any weapon your Diety favors or to any weapon you take Weapon Focus for. If you take even 1 level in Warpriest, all the weapons you take Sacred Weapon for will do 1d6 for size medium, 1d8, Large, 2d6 Huge, 3d6, Gargantuan, 4d6 Colossal. By level 8, your character will be able to Wildshape into Huge Animals, and if you cast Strong Jaw on yourself, perhaps via a Wand if you only take 4 levels in Druid, you can bump your effective size up 2 more places.

If you take 4 levels in Brawler and/or Fighter, a Human can take the Martial Versatility Feat and apply Weapon Focus (and therefore Sacred Weapon Damage) and Weapon Specialization, maybe, to every weapon in your weapon group, in this case the Natural Weapon group. This way, you will be awesome with every natural weapon regardless of the form you're in.

Apraham Lincoln wrote:

armour spikes

I like your idea about Armor Spikes, but how are you going to get them? You lose the use of your Armor when you Polymorph into an Animal. The Wild Armor Enchantment is expensive. My recommendation is to have a suit of barding made for you for while you are in your favorite Animal form. When you transform, you then cast Swift Girding on yourself to put your armor on. You might need to take a level in something that has Swift girding on it's spell list if you don't have a helpful Paladin, Wizard, or Magus friend to obligingly dress you.

In prinicple, if my Grapplers intend to prosecute a Grapple, they will go for Tying Up opponnents rather than go for Damage. If I am going for Damage, I prefer to Grab, Constrict & skewer with 'Spikes, then release with many attacks. Remember that since a Grapple is a separate attack, both the first attack and the Constrict (or Spikes) score Sneak Attack Damage.

I favor Dirty Tricks to Blind my opponents as a way to secure Sneak Attack Damage.

[avr]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

avr wrote:

It's in the errata to Ultimate Combat.

ultimate combat errata, page 5 wrote:

In the Final Embrace feat, in the Prerequisites entry, after “special attack” add “as a racial ability”.

Apraham Lincoln can Wildshape into a Giant Octopus, and gain Grab and Constrict that way.

How does that help to gain Final Embrace? Wild shape is a supernatural ability derived from a class, not a racial ability. It doesn't change your race - your type and subtypes are left unchanged by beast shape, elemental body & plant shape.

[Scott Wilhelm]

avr wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

avr wrote:

It's in the errata to Ultimate Combat.

ultimate combat errata, page 5 wrote:

In the Final Embrace feat, in the Prerequisites entry, after “special attack” add “as a racial ability”.

Apraham Lincoln can Wildshape into a Giant Octopus, and gain Grab and Constrict that way.

How does that help to gain Final Embrace? Wild shape is a supernatural ability derived from a class, not a racial ability. It doesn't change your race - your type and subtypes are left unchanged by beast shape, elemental body & plant shape.

I guess so, but all Final Embrace does is give you Grab and Constrict.

What I'm saying is that the OP can have both Grab and Constrict by Wildshaping into a Giant Octopus.

[Apraham Lincoln]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

For starters, what rule set are you using? Is this for Pathfinder Society?

Not for PFS, but it might have been pfs legal also. Always easier for gm nod if its pfs legal.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Since you are thinking of taking at least 1 level in Brawler, anyway, take it at level 1. You get Max hit points at level 1. If that is a level in Brawler, you get 10 hp instead of 8 for Druid. You hit Level 4 Druid at level 5 now, allowing you to take Shaping Focus the moment you get Wild Shape.

Or take Natural Spell at level 5 and Shaping Focus at level 7. Most Druids consider Natural Spell to be an absoulutely essential Feat. That's the one that lets you cast spells while in Wildshape. In concept, that might not be the case for your character, since it's a Druidzilla, not a Druid. But you should work it in your plans just in case.

Good call, as i was making it i just had it down as a bonus feat and only at the end did i realise its the MT changey feat. There are so few druid spells you are getting and the feats are needed more but a route for human druids.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Feral Combat Training no longer lets you apply Monk Unarmed Strike Damage to your Natural Attacks, but you can still apply Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage to any weapon your Diety favors or to any weapon you take Weapon Focus for. If you take even 1 level in Warpriest, all the weapons you take Sacred Weapon for will do 1d6 for size medium, 1d8, Large, 2d6 Huge, 3d6, Gargantuan, 4d6 Colossal. By level 8, your character will be able to Wildshape into Huge Animals, and if you cast Strong Jaw on yourself, perhaps via a Wand if you only take 4 levels in Druid, you can bump your effective size up 2 more places.

If you take 4 levels in Brawler and/or Fighter, a Human can take the Martial Versatility Feat and apply Weapon Focus (and therefore Sacred Weapon Damage) and Weapon Specialization, maybe, to every weapon in your weapon group, in this case the Natural Weapon group. This way, you will be...

I did some thinking and the fact you can stack the sacred fist levels and the monk levels and monks belt and monastic legacy (doesnt count warpriest levels as they already counting as full monk levels) together beats out the weapon focus/sacred damage part. Sacred damage only gets up to 1D8 at 10 and jumps again at 11 to 1D10 where as the unarmed can get higher and is eligable for strong jaw too. The attack routine is unarmed strikes with grab and constrict. The natural attack of the creature is almost redundant. You get the armour spikes from scale spikes and greater scale spikes with greater having a very respectable length, as long as your wildshape. The spell also provides proficiency. Eventually getting 8 levels of druid gives 4th level casting for Magic fang, strong jaw and greater scale spikes and with shaping focus, whilst not getting any better animal forms, does open up some interesting plant/constrictor choices. Yes, wands feature heavily in this characters inventory

-Edit Just checked scale spikes spell and the targeting is off :/ Maybe human, racial heritage nagaji could swing it? or even reptilian as that is a subtype for humaniods? as i say not for pfs

[Scott Wilhelm]

Apraham Lincoln wrote:

I did some thinking and the fact you can stack the sacred fist levels and the monk levels and monks belt and monastic legacy (doesnt count warpriest levels as they already counting as full monk levels) together beats out the weapon focus/sacred damage part.

If you are just going to develop your character with Unarmed Strikes and Flurry of Blows, yes. But you can't use levels in Monk to improve your Natural Attack Damage, even if you add levels in Sacred Fist.

But if you want to develop your character with Unarmed Strikes and Flurry of Blows, what do you want to Wildshape for, anyway? To buff yourself with Size increases? Just take levels in Warpriest, and you will be able to buff yourself significantly, perhaps not with size increases, but with other ways.

If you want to develop your character as a Grappler, that might not be such a bad idea. With proper hands, you can Tie Up an opponent if that is your goal in a grapple. You might be able to do that as a Giant Octopus, but you'd better check with your GM before you attempt to use your Tentacles that way.

I don't think you can wear Armor as a Sacred Fist, but with the Iron Beard Spell, you have Armor Spikes. Take Snake Style, and your Unarmed Strikes become Piercing Weapons. Take the Hamatula Strike Feat, and with every attack with a Piercing Weapon, you get a free Grapple Attack, and you will do Armor Spike Damage. With Flurry of Blows, that can amount to a lot: 4 attacks/round at level 10 doing a base 1d10 each.

I was thinking about doing that with Natural Attacks, myself. A Tengu can have 3 Natural Attacks, Claws and a Bite. With a Level in White Haired Witch, add a Hair Attack. With a Helm of the Mammoth Lord, add a Gore Attack. With Weapon Focus, start doing Sacred Weapon Damage. With a level in Ranger and a Wand of Strong Jaw, the Damage becomes a respectable 2d6. With levels in classes that do Sneak Attack Damage and Dirty Trick feats to Blind opponents, Sneak Attack Damage is multiplied by the number of attacks you get, and since the Grapple Checks are separate Attack Rolls, the Armor Spike Damage does Sneak Attack Damage, too, so like 10 attacks. White Hair has a Grab-like Feature. Bite and Gore do Piercing damage and activate Hamatula Strike. The Claws aren't unless you take Snake Style and Feral Combat Training for your Claws. Natural Attacks or Flurry of Blows, you might be getting a lot of attacks that do a lot of damage with magical buffs to bypass DR. All making use of Grappling.

To do that with Wildshape, I was thinking in terms of favoring the Giant Octopus Form, and having Octopus-shaped armor made for the character, Spiked Lammellar Horn Armor for a Druid, I think. With 1 level in Warpriest, the Sacred Weapon Damage for the attacks goes from 1d6 Size Medium to 1d8 for Size Large, Buffed to 3d6 with Strong Jaw, 2d6 for the Armor Spikes if I can buff myself with Lead Blades. I could add a Helm of the Mammoth Lord. Technically, per RAW, I could add a level in White Haired Witch and get a Hair attack, too, but I can easily seeing a GM ruling against it because octopi don't have hair, but with Grab and Constrict, we are talkiing about 16 attacks for the Tentacles alone +1 for the Bite +1 for Gore, all doing a base 3d6 +3d6 Constrict +1d8 for Armor Spikes, plus a couple of Unarmed Strikes, too because why not?

Tentacles are Secondary Natural Weapons. They suffer a -5 on Attack Rolls. You should take Multiattack, and reduce the penalty to -2.