Swallow whole and dealing damage internally


Rules Questions


So I asked this previously and I have no idea where it went. I was going to pull it up for reference because the topic came back up however it appears to be gone so I will re-ask.

While swallowed whole are you able to deal unarmed damage as a monk? Not to escape or break free but to just deal damage. As I recall last time the argument was clear that you are grappled and restricted to light/one handed weapons so there was nothing preventing a monk from doing unarmed strike damage VS the monsters internal AC as damage.

The counter argument was that swallow whole only list two things and both those are ways to escape. Restricting the swallowed creature or in this case a monk unable to do anything other than attempt to get out because at the time this one had neither slashing nor piercing.

Originally this came up because the DM described it as being 'exploitative' if I were allow to deal damage while inside with my unarmed strikes. Yet there is no wording that restricts actions it only list methods of escape should the player choose to use them is my view.

d20pfsrd wrote:

Swallow Whole (Ex)

If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent grappled in its mouth (see Grab), it can attempt a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category Smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed causes a creature to take damage each round. The amount and type of damage varies and is given in the creature’s statistics. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature’s total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

Sczarni

You answered your own question, with your quote.

Unless I'm missing some subquestion...


Nefreet wrote:

You answered your own question, with your quote.

Unless I'm missing some subquestion...

The argument is that the monk is unable to attack because swallow whole only list escaping. I argue that you can attack with unarmed strike but as listed with the grappled condition.

I am mostly re-posting it to get confirmation of the side that I argue or to be proven wrong by some updated errata.


Dude, the whole second part of what you quoted answers your question:

Quote:
A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature’s total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

Unfortunately though, a normal monks is going to be SOL. Their unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning damage only, which will not cut your way out of the creature's stomach.

So you can attack from the inside, while taking the penalties of the grappled condition, and try to cut your way out. Without a piercing or slashing weapon you can only damage the creature, not cut your way out.

Of course, dealing damage to the creature from the inside is almost always easier and often less damaging than taking the full attacks on the outside.


Claxon wrote:

Unfortunately though, a normal monks is going to be SOL. Their unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning damage only, which will not cut your way out of the creature's stomach.

So you can attack from the inside, while taking the penalties of the grappled condition, and try to cut your way out. Without a piercing or slashing weapon you can only damage the creature, not cut your way out.

Of course, dealing damage to the creature from the inside is almost always easier and often less damaging than taking the full attacks on the outside.

The intention of this post is to point out you can in fact DO damage I never once stated, mentioned or asked if you could get out via bludgeon damage. This seems to be escaping people who glance at this sadly.

It is merely "Can you do damage with bludgeon damage" not "Can I break out with bludgeon damage"


Swallow Whole is similar in function and wording to pin. It gives you a limited list of allowed actions. Simply attacking to do damage is not one of those options.

Unless your monk has a way to deal slashing or piercing damage with it's unarmed strike it's only option is to attempt to escape.


I do not think the list in the quote is completely exhaustive of your options. For example, I think casting a spell while inside should be possible. Difficult, but possible.

So I think it's okay to punch or kick the consumer from the inside, until such time that your companions fell it and you can escape, or your companions fall and you eventually die to acid.


if only we could ask the writers of the rules for an answer.being punched from inside should hurt just as much if not more because unless the creature has a scaled or armored stomach. and if you can reach it why can't you just punch the monster's uvula triggering its gag reflex and vomit you out like in a Tom and Jerry cartoon.

your DM might be of the mind that you dont have enough room to build up a strong enough of a swing to do damage since your being pressed upon from all sides. unlike the cartoons there would not be enough room inside to have space to move about freely. sure a huge monster can 3 or four people whole but its not like being dropped into a room in its gut more like a slimy acid coated pouch that's being constricted upon from the outside only expanding enough to fit the eaten stuff.


Zainale in this instance it was a small PC in a huge monster. There by rules at least was plenty of room. His simple response was that it would be 'exploitative' to allow me to damage it from within due to reduced AC. I am of the mind if a monk can deal damage externally why can't they deal damage internally? Myabe not to break free (even tho unmonk gets shattering punch) but at the very least it should cause damage. I even had bleed damage on unarmed strikes if you wana make it a case of sense.

Sczarni

If your GM says "No", then it's time to buy one of those light piercing or slashing Monk weapons for when you get swallowed again.

It certainly is a bit exploitative. I had a Natural Attack focused character that once wanted to get swallowed, too. I joked that it would be easier to hit from the inside.

But that's not a sane in-character idea. It's something that requires out-of-character knowledge and reasoning.


-well of coarse there is plenty of room to fit inside the belly of a beast to be swallowed. that's why it swallowed you. there's probably enough room in there to fit several party members. but it lacks air and there are muscles all about and others innards compacting your character from all sides and your covered in acid. it is not like the beast is swallowing stomach fulls of air to be convenient to someone it is trying to digest. so here you are you have been swallowed. you are panicking. your being pressed upon from all sides. you can't you can't breath because there is no air. and for some reason your exposed skin starts to burn dealing 1d6 points of damage per round to you and your equipment until your clothing is dissolved at which point it will jump up to 10d6 for be submerged. (the eidolon does 1d8 piercing + 1d6 elemental damage (with a spell) + 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage per round and that's not including any evolution points can go up to 4or5d6 dmg with just one evolution and possibly one feat) i don't know how many hit points cloths have but they won't last long and your a monk so your not wearing armor. you can't breath

Suffocation

A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.

When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.
(sorry i can't reduce that down i am missing important PC information to make it into bite sized info)

because the beast was not polite enough to swallow a supple of air.and if it did it would probably just burp forcing you into an airless environment.

i would think being swallowed would be like jumping into a pool that has not had if plastic pool covering removed before hand. there is enough room in there for you to struggle and thrash about but not enough to pull back and get a good enough of a swing since the stomach would already be compressing and in contact with your arm the whole way through your swing.

the only real thing you could do is cut your way out with a small bladed weapon like a dagger because your being compressed you would be unable to draw a sword or long pointy object fully from its sheath. if you had claws you could try clawing your way out of the stomach into it's gut.

-though this all changes if you have been swallowed by a plant monster being. it might have a large enough cavity inside its "body" to allow you to move about and get a nice solid strike against the inside of it's "stomach". it does not have those pesky organs and muscles to crush you with. but that's just for stationary plant monsters. who knows what a mobile plant monster might have for innards.

-and yes it might be easier to hit the beast from the inside its belly. but there is no way you could possibly take advantage of it. and there is so many things against you in that situation. but your a monk you should be able to make the very high roll for climbing out of its belly.(25+ DC 30 for escape artist +5 for slippery surface -10 for climbing a surface that you can braces yourself against + what ever the beasts cmd is for trying to swallow you back down into its gullet)

-but i am just applying my own flawed logic as to why you can't go all kung-fu inside the belly of a beast.

-if you get swallowed your PC is being forced into early retirement and is buying the farm, if his friends don't help him fast enough by killing the monster and cutting you out because your still taking damage until your pulled free from the belly of the beast.


zainale wrote:

if only we could ask the writers of the rules for an answer.being punched from inside should hurt just as much if not more because unless the creature has a scaled or armored stomach. and if you can reach it why can't you just punch the monster's uvula triggering its gag reflex and vomit you out like in a Tom and Jerry cartoon.

your DM might be of the mind that you dont have enough room to build up a strong enough of a swing to do damage since your being pressed upon from all sides. unlike the cartoons there would not be enough room inside to have space to move about freely. sure a huge monster can 3 or four people whole but its not like being dropped into a room in its gut more like a slimy acid coated pouch that's being constricted upon from the outside only expanding enough to fit the eaten stuff.

One guy I know runs it as if you do the damage to escape being swallowed the creature is dead. You don't merely escape.


Nefreet wrote:

If your GM says "No", then it's time to buy one of those light piercing or slashing Monk weapons for when you get swallowed again.

It certainly is a bit exploitative. I had a Natural Attack focused character that once wanted to get swallowed, too. I joked that it would be easier to hit from the inside.

But that's not a sane in-character idea. It's something that requires out-of-character knowledge and reasoning.

I'm not agreeing with this one. Seeing something with a huge maw and having the thought of jumping in to tear its way to it heart directly is a fairly common idea. Granted it's most commonly some kind of explosive being thrown in, but the idea of going in to kill it from it's vulnerable spots is nothing new or even that fantastical.


Saethori wrote:

I do not think the list in the quote is completely exhaustive of your options. For example, I think casting a spell while inside should be possible. Difficult, but possible.

Considering that you're taking both ongoing damage AND you're still in a grapple, difficult is an understatement.


Sinto wrote:

The intention of this post is to point out you can in fact DO damage I never once stated, mentioned or asked if you could get out via bludgeon damage. This seems to be escaping people who glance at this sadly.

It is merely "Can you do damage with bludgeon damage" not "Can I break out with bludgeon damage"

Yes, but I was expanding and adding extra information just in case those were parts of the questions you hadn't asked or thought about yet.

And in any regard, the part you quoted still has the answer you're looking for. While swallowed hole you are treated as grappled, you have all the restrictions of being grappled (which allows you to attack). In addition you can also try to cut yourself free. It's literally all there in the section you quoted.


Nefreet wrote:

It certainly is a bit exploitative. I had a Natural Attack focused character that once wanted to get swallowed, too. I joked that it would be easier to hit from the inside.

But that's not a sane in-character idea. It's something that requires out-of-character knowledge and reasoning.

"How can I get closer to its vulnerable vital organs? Hmmmmm."


In our kingmaker campaign we recently came across something that swallows whole, and our unchained rogue with acid resistance climbed in its mouth to try to sneak attack it's organs. Acid resist 5, with 1d6 acid per round, he was quite comfy.

Also I'm seeing nothing in swallow whole about suffocating, mentioned above, am I missing something?

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