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So I'm playing character of the above classes. My deity is Imbrex. I'm an Oath of Vengeance paladin and I'm Order of the Gate Hell Knight. Order of the Gate Hell Knights summon Bearded Devils. Not a power I plan on abusing lightly, but I figure I'd be perfectly fine (Just as the oath of vengeance states) working with a bearded devil (lesser devil) to take out a greater devil, or a demon.
Thoughts? Anyone run across this before? I know I can't be the first.
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You will have a LOT of "does the GM like me?" moments. Honestly for me I would do my best to basically ignore that I have that ability outside of administering the Test to prospective Hellknights. Even with that in place expect to atone more than feels necessary. I have seen GMs try to punish Paladins for going Order of the Torrent which is called out as being very Lawful Good. I can only imagine that it will be more irritating as Order of the Gate which is called out as very Lawful Evil.
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Paladin Hellknights are something I believe is entirely possible if you're a righteous enough dude. Chain, Scourge, Godclaw, Pike and Torrent are all Paladin friendly. You can even justify Nail and Pyre as long as you watch your step.
The Order of the Gate is one of those that doesn't quite fit, however. Minority Report style thought crime prevention is really pushing the limits of Good, imo. Same deal with Order of the Rack's revisionist history and Lawful Stupid traditionalism.
Paladins can be Hellknights. The leader of one Paladin branch is a Hellknight after all.
Paladins CANNOT summon Devils, however. Well, they can, but I don't recommend it for the following reasons:
That ability works as Summon Monster V.
Summon Monster says this: "When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type."
So summoning a Bearded Devil makes it a spell with the [Lawful, Evil] descriptors.
Aligned spells are aligned acts, so this is a minor [Lawful] act and a mior [Evil] act.
Paladins IMMEDIATELY fall if they willingly commit an Evil act, no matter how small, and no matter the reason.
So using this ability immediately causes a fall.
To give us a bit more to work with why did you want to go Gate? I am assuming it is fluff which might be able to transfer to another order. If not there might be a way to bypass the summoning issue with one of the other Disciplines from Path of the Hellknight that fits what you are wanting to do.
*Ninjaed* Ah... Then you are going to need to have a LONG talk with your GM. Otherwise they might make you fall the second you walk through the door. A side path that you might look at is Tyrant Antipaladin. It will make it so there is less direct mechanical backlash but you can play a very similar feel. Lawful Stupid isn't needed for Good or Evil.
Thanks for the replies! I chose Gate specifically FOR those duality moments.
Why? "Power at a price" is a common trope, of course, but generally that is because you are receiving great power you would not normally receive otherwise.
In this case you are choosing to forfeit your godly might...to summon something weaker than what you already could (all Hellknights can choose Summon Servant of Law, and Axiomites are pretty rough and tumble compared to Barbazu, with Zelekhut being equivalent to Bone Devils in power as well).
That isn't duality, that's just your character being a very poor decision maker.
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Thanks for the replies! I chose Gate specifically FOR those duality moments.Why? "Power at a price" is a common trope, of course, but generally that is because you are receiving great power you would not normally receive otherwise.
In this case you are choosing to forfeit your godly might...to summon something weaker than what you already could (all Hellknights can choose Summon Servant of Law, and Axiomites are pretty rough and tumble compared to Barbazu, with Zelekhut being equivalent to Bone Devils in power as well).
That isn't duality, that's just your character being a very poor decision maker.
No, that sounds like me meta gaming myself into a place where I can have something for nothing again, and have no personal moral dilemmas. I'm not playing this character to min/max what I can do... I'm playing this character because I *want* to push an internal moral boundary.
I was asking more of a "hey, is this going to get my character kicked out of the society" then anything else. Thanks for telling me my way of play a character concept was stupid though! I'll go back to playing two handed fighter with rage chew and explode creatures on touch. Thanks!
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NP, have fun falling for no reason.
Here's the thing. Do a quick search and you will see people fighting tooth and nail to avoid falling for things that are accidental or unavoidable. The fact that you are asking for advice on how to intentionally fall without taking the penalty is going to stick in the craw of anyone who has had to try to avoid falling for less. If you want to play that character then that is your call but unless you find a VERY lenient GM they will have you fall right out of the gate. The fact that your reasoning is that you want to push the moral envelope as far as you can on the one class that has a mechanical penalty for doing so isn't going to get you much room to talk them out of it either.
*edit* I will add that I have a Hellknight Paladin, it is probably my favorite character, but it is walking a knife edge in and out of character just to keep the GMs from having me fall just because the organization has "Hell" in their name. You can have moral issues on any character with any class. Paladin is the only one that you need to worry about having the class pulled from you for one misstep.
Do you know the GM personally? I'd say go ahead. I'd phrase it a little less snarky, but alignment stuff is incredibly subjective and different people view it differently. I'd be fine with it, and just make sure NPC's chastise you, whereas others will just plain make you fall.
I like your concept. I personally love the archetype of the dually conflicted, but other people not so much. You could just ask GMs if they're fine with it, and if not prepare a backup.
Paladins can be Hellknights. The leader of one Paladin branch is a Hellknight after all.
Paladins CANNOT summon Devils, however. Well, they can, but I don't recommend it for the following reasons:
That ability works as Summon Monster V.
Summon Monster says this: "When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type."
So summoning a Bearded Devil makes it a spell with the [Lawful, Evil] descriptors.
Aligned spells are aligned acts, so this is a minor [Lawful] act and a mior [Evil] act.
Paladins IMMEDIATELY fall if they willingly commit an Evil act, no matter how small, and no matter the reason.
So using this ability immediately causes a fall.
Where would a Paladin/Hellknight get that ability anyway? The Infernal Challenger spell is not on the Paladin spell list. The language about when that spell is and is not an evil spell is, however, helpful for a paladin about to take the test not having to worry about even witnessing an evil act when that bearded devil is summoned.
Where would a Paladin/Hellknight get that ability anyway? The Infernal Challenger spell is not on the Paladin spell list. The language about when that spell is and is not an evil spell is, however, helpful for a paladin about to take the test not having to worry about even witnessing an evil act when that bearded devil is summoned.
It's a Discipline available to the order of the Gate. They get a Summon Monster SLA and can use it to summon Barbazu, Erinyes, and Bone Devils.
Ah, yes. To make matters worse, a Paladin/Hellknight of the Order of the Gate is basically forced to take that discipline when he attains 3rd level as a Hellknight.
That order is definitely not paladin friendly.
Ah, yes. To make matters worse, a Paladin/Hellknight of the Order of the Gate is basically forced to take that discipline when he attains 3rd level as a Hellknight.
That order is definitely not paladin friendly.
It can work though, not the way OP wants it to, but it can work. Take either Intrude Thoughts or Dispel Chaos instead of Summon Devil. Maybe pick up a Cassian Angel familiar as a buffer against falling and for Perfect Recall (artificial boost to intelligence to "fit in" better with the wizards). Then basically play them as trying to seal and/or stop chaotic outsiders from effecting mortals.
It would lend itself well to the idea of trying to reestablish the Order of the Vise. As presented though all the OP would get is a fallen Paladin and an annoyed GM.
Which book covers all this Hellknight info?
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Which book covers all this Hellknight info?
Path of the Hellknight has most of it. Path of Prestige, Faction Guide, and Inner Sea World Guide have some too. The rest is scattered throughout different books.
Thank you kindly
A Paladin in the Order of the Gate would be best off avoiding the Hellknight prestige class, or at the very least taking no more than two levels of it. He could enter the Hellknight Signifer prestige class, but the problem is that he would not qualify for it before level 10 (and then only if he has a charisma of 16+). To avoid having his tester commit an evil act in front of him, he needs to take the test several levels before he actually becomes a Hellknight Signifer.
To avoid having his tester commit an evil act in front of him, he needs to take the test several levels before he actually becomes a Hellknight Signifer.
You lost me on this one... I assume you are talking about the summoning for the Test being the evil act but that will be true regardless of the level. Tied to that, while the Paladin can't summon one himself and likely views the fact that others do as disgustingly distasteful it won't directly do anything other than make him feel dirty and need and atonement for having to work with someone that summons devils.
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Thanks for the replies! I chose Gate specifically FOR those duality moments.
I love characters that conflict with themselves. That's probably why I'm creating a vigilante who's other persona is an alternate personality that's kind of evil, trying to serve as a bad moral compass to the dominant character.
In my opinion, this should work just fine. Paladins don't have to be played as Lawful Stupid, and I believe that (depending on your character and their beliefs) they should be able to kind of manipulate evil towards good ends by using it to destroy greater evils.
Thanks for the replies! I chose Gate specifically FOR those duality moments.I love characters that conflict with themselves. That's probably why I'm creating a vigilante who's other persona is an alternate personality that's kind of evil, trying to serve as a bad moral compass to the dominant character.
In my opinion, this should work just fine. Paladins don't have to be played as Lawful Stupid, and I believe that (depending on your character and their beliefs) they should be able to kind of manipulate evil towards good ends by using it to destroy greater evils.
Also, to add some extra evidence, because that's always great, I'm going to quote the Oath of Vengeance and the Code of Conduct.
Code of Conduct: Never let lesser eveils distract you from your pursuit of just vengeance.
Associates: Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil.
Ignoring the fact that Paizo misspelled "evils", I believe that letting your hatred of devils get the better of you counts as being distracted by them, instead of focusing on destroying the greater evil. And the Code of Conduct explicitly states that, under dire circumstances, you can use those CR 5 evil devils to help kill someone who is way worse.
...No, it doesn't. You may ally with Evil associates, yes. Were someone to Planar Bind a Devil and you worked with it to stop a Demon invasion or something, you'd be fine.
But casting Summon Monster to summon an Evil creature is an Evil act...which means you Fall. Your ability to ally with evil and your non-ability to commit Evil acts are not the same thing.
This is not a subjective thing, much as I wish it was. These are repeatedly re-iterated RULES of the game. Paladins cannot commit evil acts willingly under any circumstances, or they fall. Summoning a Devil is a minor Evil act.
I don't have Horror Adventures or I'd quote the most recent reiteration of this rule for you. It's in, as I recall, Faiths of Purity and Inner Sea Gods as well.
Cast Protection from Evil three times, go to Heaven.
e z p z
No, that sounds like me meta gaming myself into a place where I can have something for nothing again, and have no personal moral dilemmas. I'm not playing this character to min/max what I can do... I'm playing this character because I *want* to push an internal moral boundary.
There's a limit to how much you can push before you break your limits, and that will be very early if you insist on joining this Paladin to this specific Order.
No, that sounds like me meta gaming myself into a place where I can have something for nothing again, and have no personal moral dilemmas. I'm not playing this character to min/max what I can do... I'm playing this character because I *want* to push an internal moral boundary.There's a limit to how much you can push before you break your limits, and that will be very early if you insist on joining this Paladin to this specific Order.
More so with the direct intent of summoning devils which is directly called out as "an evil act".
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To avoid having his tester commit an evil act in front of him, he needs to take the test several levels before he actually becomes a Hellknight Signifer.
Summoning a devil is typically an evil act. If cast for any reason besides the administering a Hellknight test, this spell has the evil descriptor.
Emphasis mine. It would not be an evil act, so the paladin would have no issues with it.