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Probably this bit from the Sanity sub-system -
Each time a character encounters a Great Old One
Save DC = 15 + CR of the creature
Failure: Sanity damage equal to double the creature’s CR
Success: Sanity damage equal to the creature’s CR
EDIT: For other GMs -- the reference above is to the Horror Adventures Horror Characters >> Sanity (page 13 in the hardcover). The reason I specify is there is ALSO a chapter on Sanity much later in the book, which was where I was trying to find the pertinent information.
Ah. Gotcha. Yeah, not using that subsystem. My players have already resorted to arson, eating rats, murdering Losandro with telekinetic projectiles of her own stuff, and serious discussions about cannibalism.
They don’t need help, is what I’m saying.
I have a question about the Oasis. Is the doubles fight going to be too easy if I don't do the tree fight? The tree really just seems unnecessary for the story, and it really doesn't make sense for it to occur and then the Mad Poet walks out and is all like "oh hello, didn't know you were here." So is the party going to be too strong for the final fight without it? Any unique experiences in general that anyone had with this section would also be appreciated.
I have a question about the Oasis. Is the doubles fight going to be too easy if I don't do the tree fight? The tree really just seems unnecessary for the story, and it really doesn't make sense for it to occur and then the Mad Poet walks out and is all like "oh hello, didn't know you were here." So is the party going to be too strong for the final fight without it? Any unique experiences in general that anyone had with this section would also be appreciated.
Haven't gotten there yet myself, so hard to say for sure. But if you want to tune up their doubles to compensate for them going into the fight fresh and full, you could probably give the doubles an extra level.
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@Ekaj: I didn't go through with the whole Jinmenju fight, though I did have it use it's mind control powers to try and force the party to eat it's head-fruits. When the party started to get hostile towards the tree, the Mad Poet came out of his hut with an irritable "Don't mess with my tree."
Aside from the "being compelled to eat poison" stuff, the fight doesn't seem that interesting or dangerous, and there's a decent chance the party would make a point of healing their damage during the conversation.
As for the duplicates, they were decently challenging. The real party is definitely stronger, but dupes downed one of my PCs, and were only robbed of the killshot due to a quick response and a good roll. One way to give the nightmare clones an advantage is to let them walk on the surface of the pond, while the PC's wade through knee deep water.
Before implementing reflaction's great suggestions, maybe start with something that's less work to implement.
A sword in the dreamlands is a manifestation of the dream of a sword. If you bring that dream back to the physical realm, it is still just a dream.
In order of increasing complexity:
Fading dreams - items lose density and disappear within a few rounds of exposure to reality.
Broken dreams - dream items have 0 hardness and 1 hit point; 10% chance of shattering on use. Shattered dreams can only be repaired with a wish or miracle.
Twisted dreams - dream items brought to the physical realm are distorted and misshapen; bonuses become penalties and other magical effects are reversed: a flaming sword adds fire resistance rather than dealing fire damage, cure spells become inflict spells, etc.
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I have a question about the Oasis. Is the doubles fight going to be too easy if I don't do the tree fight? The tree really just seems unnecessary for the story, and it really doesn't make sense for it to occur and then the Mad Poet walks out and is all like "oh hello, didn't know you were here." So is the party going to be too strong for the final fight without it? Any unique experiences in general that anyone had with this section would also be appreciated.
In my opionion this adds to the strangeness of the encounter. I had an guest player acting as the mad poet. He did not mention the destroyed tree with one word - my player where freaked out by this even more. The guy playing the poet just discarded the "priceless" presents like; " Oh thats nice - just drop it there, will you?" He also threw one item over the shoulder, ensuring the pc´s that this is a nice gift. The look on their faces was priceless.
question: What is the point of taking damage in order to meet the DC 25 concentration check in order to wake up. The books says this check can be repeated on failure, and thus a d20 + character level is guaranteed to hit a DC 25 eventually.
“Eventually” being key. There have been several Dreamlands encounters that have gone badly for my PCs (e.g., the animate dream shopkeeper—they don’t have a way to mitigate negative energy damage and those touch attacks add up quick). When that happens, they want to wake up FAST before they die and develop a lesser (or in some cases greater) madness. Taking that damage is the only thing that has given them the boost to wake up before Dream-death.
Also, they've been using it as a tactic. For example, when they wanted to recover the Skull of Ghoul Royalty, one of them realized that they didn't need to fight their way through the gug and then back out through what was clearly a Leng ghoul trap. Instead, they could sneak in, create a distraction, and then wake up the moment one of them grabbed the skull. Using the "take damage to wake up" ensured that plan worked perfectly, without having to roll for round after round of combat trying to wake up.
Anyone have any experience with the PCs losing the battle against their dream selves?
I suppose I could just have them wake up with madness, like all the other Dreamlands deaths, but that feels unsatisfying, from a narrative perspective. Like, now they have to go back and do it all over again? And again? Whittle down their former Dreamland selves one at a time?
I'm not saying they WILL lose--but it is a distinct possibility when you send an APL 9 party against a CR 12 encounter.
I'm open to suggestions.
Well, how have you set up the fight? Are you using the PCs as they are now, or as they were along a timeline that stayed with Lowls?
If you're using their evil twins, they could have very different classes and feat choices, perhaps they don't work well together - in short, the fight could be swayed to favor the PCs.
Depending on your party make-up/story, one of the dream versions could even betray the dream party to help the PCs.
I'm not looking for advice on how to run the encounter. I'm asking for thoughts on what happens IF one of the PCs dies.
I'm running it as written.
To prepare for this encounter, collect a copy of the PCs' character sheets after they first enter the Dreamlands using the Dreamlands excursion ritual. They will most likely be 7th level at this point, but if the PCs are higher or lower level it isn't a problem for this encounter and shouldn't make that big of a difference.
For each player character, apply the advanced creature simple template and the nightmare creature template. This represents the dream reflections of the PCs trapped in the waters of the Mad Poet's oasis. Assuming the PCs are 7th level when you apply these templates, the final challenge rating of each dream reflection should be CR 8, making this a CR 12 encounter.
It's not "evil twins" in a Star Trek goatee way. It's the 7th level version of their characters, with templates stacked on to make it a CR 12 encounter.
Which seems possible given that it is a CR 12 encounter against an APL 9 party.
As for "betray the dream party",
Now, these creatures plan to kill the PCs to suppress the memories for good.
That doesn't sound like one of them would betray the party to help the PCs.
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Anyone have any experience with the PCs losing the battle against their dream selves?
I asked the same question back on page 4 of this thread, and I was concerned about it. In the end, it didn't happen to my group, but I had basically planned to tell anyone who died in that encounter that they woke with their current stats, but the inherited personality of the 'evil twin', and ask them to quietly play the twin as being a 'mole', undermining the group's efforts for a while. I'd basically decided they'd need to put in a little more effort than just a restoration spell to fix this issue, but hadn't come up with specifics.
Interesting idea. However, one of them already has a dissociative personality from greater madness after one too many deaths in the Dreamlands.
I have one idea. In the first book (detailed in that GM thread) they failed to stop the Tatterman. In order to avoid a TPK, I'd prepared for the entire Briarstone complex to get transported into the Dreamlands by an act of Desna--the PCs and Winter Klaczka being the only ones to escape.
On their way to the Mad Poet's Oasis, they're going to see Briarstone Asylum, shimmering in the distance in the Dreamland desert. They will never be able to approach it, but it will just be there. A reminder...
...unless one of them dies at the hands of his Dreamland double. Then he'll wake, imprisoned in a nightmarish Dreamlands version of Briarstone, stripped once again of ALL memories.
Until and unless the other PCs manage to rescue him.
Thoughts?
That sounds like a cool bit significant sidequest.
I haven't thought about this, so I'm glad you brought it up.
That sounds like a cool bit significant sidequest.
I haven't thought about this, so I'm glad you brought it up.
Yeah, I’m *really* hoping it won’t come up. At least I’ll have the maps if it does.
I’ve also got one player who has to leave the campaign so the party will be down to three for the rest of it. That may take some work too.
Here, if anyone is looking for ideas about memory return, is the handout I came up with for my PCs.
A childhood on the streets of Caliphas taught you two things: resourcefulness and piety. Both enabled you to build a successful, if illicit, business moving goods in and out of the city. You always made sure to tithe the correct amount to the Lady of Graves, and she, in turn, favored you by not paying you too much mind.
In time, your success drew the attention of a noble patron. Count Lowls, “collector of antiquities”. At first, moving his antiquities past customs without notice was a fine job. More and more, you began to get suspicious that what he was acquiring was… dark. Evil. But the money kept flowing, well beyond what he should have been paying for such simple work.
At length, he even paid you an exhorbitant amount to relocate to his county seat of Thrushmoor, to manage all of his “import/export affairs.” Ignoring the little voice that nagged that perhaps even the boost in Pharasmin tithes was not worth this, you complied.
The breaking point came when you were unloading a shipment at the Thrushmoor docks. A strange green stone statue, of a conical creature with odd appendages, hidden underneath a shipment of Keleshite coffee. When you touched the item, your mind was instantly transported elsewhere—to the strange, alien world of the Yithians. You wandered their city for… a while. You learned many things—as the mind-swapping alien learned things about Golarion from inhabiting your body.
When you came to, you realized whatever the Count could pay you was not worth it. You spent your carefully horded gold on a bolt-kit, which you hid under the docks. Unfortunately, good sense had prevailed a day late. That very evening, the Count enacted his plan to drag you to the Dreamland as a sacrifice…
As a child, your impoverished parents gave you over to the Chapel of Guilts—a monastery in Ustalav. The masochistic discipline of the Pharasmin Penitence was harsh and unyielding. It made for a grim upbringing, but you learned the rudiments of martial arts quickly.
One day, Count Lowls visited the Chapel. You happened to overhear him speaking with Abbot Phavad Nholinarm. The Count implored, then demanded, that the Abbot turn over a volume from the Chapel’s secret library—something called The Way of The Hungry Ghost. The Abbot denied his request repeatedly, saying the knowledge within was not for those who did not follow the strict piety of the Pharasmin Penitence—and those who did follow the Penitence had no use for such blasphemies, except to destroy them. The Count made one last effort, offering wealth and comforts.
In an instant, you made a decision that sent your life on a very different course. The temptation of a more comfortable life, away from the ice-baths, self-flagellation, pre-dawn prayers—that temptation swayed you. You crept into the library, stole the volume, climbed the wall of the monastery, and pursued the fur-dressed noble down the road.
Lowls lacked the discipline to make much of the volume, despite his pretentions to academic rigor. He was, however, grateful to you. He took you into his service, shielding you from the demands of the church that you return to fulfill oaths your parents had made in your stead.
Grown bored with the book, Lowls gave it to you. He tasked you with the various jobs a nobleman’s muscle would need. You accompanied him on a number of journeys to far-off ports, learning the dark, anti-Pharasmin secrets of the Hungry Ghost monks and living a life of relative comfort in the favored quarters of Iris Hill.
Until the day the Count needed your mind as a sacrifice…
Your life began in Hell.
The torments are innumerable as they are repetive. They were not yours to suffer, but such is afterlife.
Your life began again in a magic circle.
Count Lowls and a handful of acolytes called you to the mortal plane. You gather they had used a ritual, attempting to call forth the spirit of the Black Pharaoh, Nyarlthotep—in the person of Pharaoh Kephren III. Instead, they got you.
Disappointed, the acolytes left the Count. Lowls, however, persisted in insisting you must, MUST have some knowledge. He bound you to the circle for weeks, racking you for information you could never hope to provide. At last, he gave up. He left you there. For years.
During that time, you studied the circle. You studied the implements scattered around Lowls’ library. You read snippets of lore in half-open tomes, upside-down. All the while, seeking escape, a way to break the circle.
From time to time, the Count showed you off to bored lesser nobles, cultists, and would-be colleagues. None was much impressed—or at least, haughty indifference was what they affected. Frustrated, Lowls contemplated having his body guard murder you, to see if your soul could be siphoned off to replenish ki in the hungry ghost fashion.
Instead, he came up with another use. From the deserts of Osirian to the deserts of the Dreamlands, once again you served as a sacrifice for some other lord’s will…
You spent an idyllic childhood on the island of Hermae—a utopian oasis in the Steaming Sea. You were one of the elect. Son of a couple chosen by the gold dragon Mengakare, as part of his program to create the perfect human society.
Your psychic abilities manifested early. Things moved around you for your convenience. Chores were a snap. More disconcertingly, however, were the stories you would tell your parents. Stories from long ago—memories of others that a child had no business knowing.
As you neared adulthood, those past lives spoke more and more. The tale they told revealed that the Hermaean paradise had a dark side. Hints and whispers of a dozen generations led you to suspect that the lordly Mengakare’s benevolence was a ruse—a breeding program of sinister purpose lurked beneath the well-ordered world of your youth.
You shared those secrets. This drew the dragon’s attention. On your 16th birthday, when you were to be tested for fitness to join Hermaean society, Mengakare himself paid you a visit. Using powerful magic, he erased your memories of the isle—the first, but not the last, of your forced amnesias.
You were then removed from the comforts and safety of Hermae. Sold in to slavery. A brutal five years followed, barely surviving the gnoll-run slave markets of Okeno.
Led by rumors of your psychic abilities, Lowls purchased you from a gnoll slaver named Biting Lash. After a cursory study, he dismissed your powers and reincarnated memories as insufficiently interesting. He did, however, make good on the investment by putting you to work as muscle, in exchange for room and board—a crude servant’s quarter in Iris Hill was better than anything you remembered in your life.
And so you passed a few years, until Lowls found a different use for you…
It's much more fun to join the rebirth discipline when you're part of a race that has centuries-long lifespan... :)
Oh, the fun I've had with ancestral memory!
Contributor
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When I ran the fight with the PCs' other selves I had it so that the evil versions could only be fully defeated by the PC version they mirrored. As it turned out all but one of the PCs defeated their evil version themselves. The last PC was 'killed' and shunted out of the Dreamlands with a madness. The remaining PCs defeated that PC's evil version in the Dreamlands, but I had it so that the death was not permanent. That evil version (a shapechanging alchemist) came to haunt the PCs in the real world, chasing them and causing them problems, before facing them (empowered, of course) later in the campaign.
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Hey, sorry if this question has been asked yet. I’m generally curious how some of you kept track of the days? Did you skip weeks of time through each session? About how often should we throw random encounters at the party? I’ve just finished reading the book but seemed to have missed some of this. Thank you in advance!
1. I was pretty loose about keeping track. I had a spreadsheet with a calendar and I'd note important milestones as we went (e.g., "Researched X gift" or "Attacked by Hanspurites"). But for the most part, I played it by ear. I did make sure if the players wanted to do stuff that required downtime that they account for it (e.g., I had a player retrain, and it was important to know if/when he was done with that, relative to the planned encounters).
2. I definitely skipped days/weeks during each session. With a three and a half month journey, it felt like the right thing to do. I played once in a campaign where we had to grind every day of a long journey and, as a player, I got really frustrated with spending my limited 4 hours a week of gaming repeating "No, I just sit on the boat, same as yesterday" dozens of times in a row.
3. I didn't do random encounters. I'm pretty story-driven and I treat them as mostly optional. Nothing more frustrating than losing a PC (and therefore their investment in the story) to a random encounter. Or PCs burning resources on stuff that didn't really mean anything.
It's really a personal preference call on random encounters. However often you like to do them is fine. Also, I don't use XP, so I don't have to worry about characters not being sufficient level (I just level them at the suggested times).
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1. I was pretty loose about keeping track. I had a spreadsheet with a calendar and I'd note important milestones as we went (e.g., "Researched X gift" or "Attacked by Hanspurites"). But for the most part, I played it by ear. I did make sure if the players wanted to do stuff that required downtime that they account for it (e.g., I had a player retrain, and it was important to know if/when he was done with that, relative to the planned encounters).
2. I definitely skipped days/weeks during each session. With a three and a half month journey, it felt like the right thing to do. I played once in a campaign where we had to grind every day of a long journey and, as a player, I got really frustrated with spending my limited 4 hours a week of gaming repeating "No, I just sit on the boat, same as yesterday" dozens of times in a row.
3. I didn't do random encounters. I'm pretty story-driven and I treat them as mostly optional. Nothing more frustrating than losing a PC (and therefore their investment in the story) to a random encounter. Or PCs burning resources on stuff that didn't really mean anything.
It's really a personal preference call on random encounters. However often you like to do them is fine. Also, I don't use XP, so I don't have to worry about characters not being sufficient level (I just level them at the suggested times).
This is great! Thank you for the help. I don't do XP either so I'll just run it like you did. I'll make a spreadsheet for the important days and mark when those happen. We've got a psychic investigator so they're killing these research checks. Thanks again.
You're welcome!
Oh, the one other thing I had to track was when they got madnesses--the onset time winds up making a difference in seeking a cure. I got lucky in that the only greater madness (which was beyond their ability to cure) manifested the day after they got to Cassomir, so they were able to high-tail it to the Grand Bank of Abadar and pay for some psychological healing.
If your players get overwhelmed by madnesses you should remember that the got 2 scrolls of psycic surgery earlier in that AP. Because items used in the dreamlands are still present in the real world, your players can use this spell four times at best.
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Could use some ideas/advice.
My PCs have reached the lunar prison, and it looks like they may be about to skip almost all of it. They found the drainpipe access to the rear of the prison, and used a silence spell to mask the sound as they broke in through the grate. Kelvetta told them that the yellow king had been taken upstairs.
They fought the dragon (extremely close call on that one, but they enjoyed a tough fight), and the session ended as they were inspecting the door to the solitary cell block.
The PCs have shown an interest lately in aiming right for their objectives and getting out. I think it is entirely possible that they will find the yellow king, free him, and leave the way they came - basically a surgical extraction the skips everything in the dungeon apart from the dragon who was in the way. The rogue has high Disable Device, so they should have no problem freeing the yellow king without the moonbeasts’ keys.
The AP will continue to move on if they do this, but they will have skipped a lot of content. I am leveling by milestones, so I’m not worried about them falling behind XP-wise. Basically, there is a cool dungeon and they’re not going to do it.
Option 1: The maenads and the moonbeast will certainly have heard the dragon fight, and they could come downstairs to investigate and attack the PCs. This doesn’t result in any additional exploration of the prison, but at least it results in more than one encounter.
Option 2: The yellow king was recently taken upstairs by the maenads, forcing the PCs to explore further to find him.
Does anyone else have any additional ideas on how to salvage a dungeon experience here?
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That is exactly what my PCs did. For our group, it turned out fine. Sometimes the PCs miss cool stuff, but get to feel very accomplished for a brilliant solution. I choose to reward their inventiveness, even if it means I as GM miss out on running part of the AP.
BTW, I think the nature of this AP has scared my players so badly they've gotten even smarter than usual (and they are SMART people).
The moonbeast prison wasn't even the first dungeon they skipped. Nor the last. They went to Iris Hill Manor via the front door, shanking the cultists at the gate without so much as a discussion. Then, after the Dreamlands chapter, they used scry on the severed ear to find out where the kidnapped guy was and teleported right to him. Same strategy to bypass a fort full of gnolls and rescue Kalkalath. They were so wigged by the first flying polyp in Neruzavin that they wall-of-stoned off all entrances to underground and backed that up with other seals. Didn't even descend below.
And in Carcosa they used the scry-and-teleport trick again to jump in, rescue the vampire-who-didn't-know-it, sealed her in a dome of stone during the Blood Moon, dimension-door'd to the secret door and made a bee-line for Eric Zann.
It helps that they have an occultist who has the arcane eye sensor. They've explored a lot of the dungeons in advance using that (if creatures lack blindsense or see invisibility, the sensor pretty much can scoot by without incident). And they have lots of Knowledge points and access to that Akashic record spell. So they know exactly how bad it is inside the dungeon and pick and choose their own encounters.
When they sent the arcane eye through the moonbeast dungeon and checked their research on everything that was in there, there was a silent moment at the table.
"You know," one player says, "amnesia isn't the worst thing in the world. We could just go home and accept it."
:p
How did you guys handle the dream research? My party just got to that part last session and I could tell they were bored to tears, especially the martial characters. They just weren't all that into rolling, passing and learning nothing from their attempts so I'm really interested in hearing how others made it more engaging.
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Oh - I never went over how things turned out in the lunar prison. I went with option 2: the maenads had taken the yellow king up to the top floor. The PCs fought the maenads (they went down really fast) and Ahrkh-Nar (that was a nail-biter because he dominated the fully buffed Inquisitor archer PC who proceeded to mow down her companions). Sure enough, the PCs had no interest in exploring and left the way they came.
I improvised an encounter with Yath-Kheph in which I assumed that he and the guards in the front of the prison learned that the rear of the prison had been breached, and he was waiting for them by the drain exit. He told the PCs that if they killed Ahrkh-Nar he is glad, but he cannot allow them to take prisoners out. Obviously the PCs were not leaving without the yellow king so they killed Yath-Kheph and left.
The jinmenju fight was a bit of a let-down because they figured out its abilities and kited it with ranged attacks, taking advantage of its slow speed to keep out of range of its auras. Oh well.
I haven't noticed anyone mention this yet, but as for the Mad Poet, it says on p. 54, "Abdul Alhazred does not attack unless the PCs are particularly rude or if he’s attacked first. In such a case, he casts overwhelming presenceUM to command appropriate respect, targeting recalcitrant visitors with feeblemind or destruction." But none of these spells are on his spell list on p. 56.
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He does have wish, limited wish, and a bonded object.
Here´s a little fun Storry of the final fight in the oasis.
One of my players got freaked out about a advanced horror version of our ork paladin. This player usually is one of the more creative ones in solving issues. So here is what he tried
He snatched the Dream Necronomicon out of the mad poets hand, rushed over to the ork and smacked him in Hope that the Book would consume this nightmare creature.
He was shocked as this did not work and he was standing without weapons in front of this killer machine.
At this moment the Al Hazred blasted the ork with finger of dead, returning to his hut afterwards.
The players heard him muttering "I cannot believe he just did that" to himself while laughing so hard he was gasping for air
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If anyone is looking for more encounters because their players rushed the dream section and still have plenty of boat sections:
I ran an encounter where two rotting soaked boats rise up from the sea next to the Sellen Starling, flanking it, operated by two different captains who are after Captain Skywin.
Ontop of each of the boats are about over a dozen draugrs, low level creatures, but its the sheer number that makes them troublesome. The draugrs would either swim over and climb up the boat or simply jump over if the boats were nearby enough.
So the PC have to either find a way to sink the boats or deal with all the draugrs.
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Why do the quests ask the players to find duplicate items for the gifts? Are the gifts merely there as a guide? What if the players want to research Abdul Alhazred before trying to appease him?
My understanding after running through this book twice is that the party is gathering those items because they seemed to work for Lowls in appeasing the Mad Poet. They can attempt to reach him at any time after their first meeting with the Yellow King, though he will probably have to be rescued from the moon first unless they try to go right away.
If the party heads to the Mad Poet immediately without any gifts, then there will be little reward or otherwise from him other than their memories and reflections attacking. The party should learn that he's basically a god in this place and that he's pretty dangerous even with proper gifts being given. A party that wants to research him further will have Lowls's books that only reinforce what he came to believe, that gathering those items would help to placate the wizard.
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I went to reflavour that these items were items that Count Lowls deemed too troublesome or dangerous to get and that the party had obtained a different/easier set of items.
It makes the dream quests sound more impressive than retreading old water and grabbing the same stuff as their past selves.
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Has anyone come up with a map itinerary / handout for this adventure? I can trace a red line on an existing map like anyone, but I'm hoping one of you came up with an ancient parchment style looking map.
The PCs actually find this map in Book 2 in Lowl's study (page 48 of the adventure), as follows:
"An annotated map shows Lake Encarthan and the
lands to the south. The count has drawn a route from
Thrushmoor to Xer, traced a line down the Sellen
River to Cassomir, and then marked the coast to
Katheer, from which he plans to mount an expedition
to the lost city of Neruzavin."