Pounce lets you full attack at the end of a charge. But can you pounce if a mount has moved more than 5 feet that turn? Normally, you can only make one melee attack if the mount has moved more than five feet. Do you need Mounted Skirmisher to take advantage of pounce, or does pounce override that rule?
It would seem as though it should, but by RAW, it doesn't seem to.
Normally, you can only make one attack at the end of a charge.
Another rule is, when you are riding a mount, and it moves more than five feet that turn, you can only make one attack.
Pounce lets you full attack on a charge (negating the first rule), but it doesn't, by RAW (as it doesn't specify that it does so), negate the second (but the feat, Mounted Skirmisher, does).
Am I correct?
To attempt to clarify further, the whole crux of the issue for me is that there are two separate rules that both limit the max amount of attacks to only 1.
While pounce gets rid of one rule, the other would still seem to apply.
EDITED TO ADD:
A bad analogy would be a pouncer (on foot) that is Nauseated. To say "since he has pounce, therefore, he can full attack," is to ignore the other condition.
In this case, it's not Nauseated, but mounted, that limits you in your number of attacks.
Except that if you have pounce and are limited to only a standard action you can still make a limited charge (max movement up to your speed) and then pounce allows you to make all your attacks anyways. This has been established previously.
Also, nauseated would prevent you from taking any standard actions, so you can't charge or attack in the first place. However, I think you meant to say staggered which allows for a standard or move only.
And to address the original question there is this FAQ:
Lance: If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the lance's extra damage multiplier from charging?
No, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because when the Core Rulebook was published, there was no way for a PC to charge and get multiple attacks with a weapon in the same round, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)
The FAQ literally doesn't make any sense unless you can make a mounted charge and benefit from pounce, which the question has already assumed is possible and isn't refuted in the FAQ. So obviously, if you have pounce and make a mounted charge you get to make all your attacks, but only the first attack gets the benefits from charging.
Except that if you have pounce and are limited to only a standard action you can still make a limited charge (max movement up to your speed) and then pounce allows you to make all your attacks anyways. This has been established previously.
Also, nauseated would prevent you from taking any standard actions, so you can't charge or attack in the first place. However, I think you meant to say staggered which allows for a standard or move only.
No, I was referring to nasueated. Admittedly, it wasn't the best example, but the best I could think of.
So we can forget it, probably.
The FAQ literally doesn't make any sense unless you can make a mounted charge and benefit from pounce, which the question has already assumed is possible and isn't refuted in the FAQ. So obviously, if you have pounce and make a mounted charge you get to make all your attacks, but only the first attack gets the benefits from charging.
Unless the rider has a way to full attack on a moving mount, like the feat, Mounted Skimisher. But, you would think that would have been mentioned in the FAQ.
It really seems as though the designers did allow pounce to give you a full attack, so I'm gonna just keep playing like that.
Especially after rereading:
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack.
As was mentioned, pouncers don't have to normally wait. So while it isn't explicitly pointed out that pouncers can full attack on a charge while mounted (and overriding that one rule), I think this would be enough to go on.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I feel like I'm repeating myself.
@Mechanical Pear
Your mount is prohibited from taking a move, a standard, or a double move when you take a charge action. Your mount must match. So your mount can charge, then you may charge/pounce.
You keep bringing up scenarios that involve your mount double moving and the rider pouncing.
Pounce lets you full attack at the end of a charge. But can you pounce if a mount has moved more than 5 feet that turn? Normally, you can only make one melee attack if the mount has moved more than five feet. Do you need Mounted Skirmisher to take advantage of pounce, or does pounce override that rule?
It would seem as though it should, but by RAW, it doesn't seem to.
I'm confused...
Are you asking if a mount can use pounce at the end of a charge?Or are you asking if the mounts rider can use pounce at the end of a charge?
As far as I know, pounce let's one use all of its natural attacks at the end of it's charge.
A mounted rider would be using weapon attacks, so mounted skirmisher is what the he needs to make a full attack at the end of the mounts charge.
Pounce lets you full attack at the end of a charge. But can you pounce if a mount has moved more than 5 feet that turn? Normally, you can only make one melee attack if the mount has moved more than five feet. Do you need Mounted Skirmisher to take advantage of pounce, or does pounce override that rule?
It would seem as though it should, but by RAW, it doesn't seem to.
I'm confused...
Are you asking if a mount can use pounce at the end of a charge?
Or are you asking if the mounts rider can use pounce at the end of a charge?As far as I know, pounce let's one use all of its natural attacks at the end of it's charge.
A mounted rider would be using weapon attacks, so mounted skirmisher is what the he needs to make a full attack at the end of the mounts charge.
This is incorrect, not all (if any) the PC ways of gaining pounce (such as Greater Beast Totem for barbarians) specify natural attacks. The pounce special ability certainly doesn't specify natural attacks.
A mounted rider counts as charging when his mount charges. If he is charging (and he is because his mount is) he gets to make all his attacks. Mounted Skirmisher is not needed. And in fact, Mounted Skirmisher doesn't work with a charge if your mount tries to move further then it's normal speed (charge allows for moving up to twice your speed).
Pounce can be done with weapon attacks.
Pounce lets you "break" the limit of one attack if your mount moves.
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su): While raging, the barbarian gains two claw attacks. These attacks are considered primary attacks and are made at the barbarian's full base attack bonus. The claws deal 1d6 points of slashing damage (1d4 if Small) plus the barbarian's Strength modifier.
Beast Totem (Su): While raging, the barbarian gains a +1 natural armor bonus. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the barbarian has attained. A barbarian must have the lesser beast totem rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 6th level to select this rage power.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su): While raging, the barbarian gains the pounce special ability, allowing her to make a full attack at the end of a charge. In addition, the damage from her claws increases to 1d8 (1d6 if Small) and the claws deal ×3 damage on a critical hit. A barbarian must have the beast totem rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 10th level to select this rage power.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack
LBT Changes your hands to claws, so you can't hold weapons (unless you have more than two hands).
BT your hands are still claws from LBTGBT your hands are still claws from BT and LBT, so when you pounce you have the two claw attacks.
Yes, you are correct that pounce doesn't state natural attacks only. But I only see it given to those with natural attacks.
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The mounted combat rules actually specify that if your mount moves more than 5 feet, you are limited to a single melee attack. My personal take on the rules interactions is that you'd need to negate that limitation, such as with Mounted Skirmisher, before you can use pounce. Once you've overcome that limitation though, if you have pounce, then you can use it when you meet the conditions of performing a mounted charge (both you and your mount use the charge action).
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It seems there is confusion.
A rider CANNOT charge while mounted. He is unable to move while mounted. He can take move actions, but he can't use them to move.
According to this FAQ, you're incorrect.
If a mount has moved more than 5', then you cannot full-attack.
This however is correct, thus why you need Mounted Skirmisher to break the limitation.
When a mount charges, you gain all the benefits and penalties of charging.
The FAQ linked above notes that this is because both you and the mount are taking the charge action. If you take any other action, such as using your move action to draw a potion and your standard action to attack, you are not making a mounted charge and do not gain the benefits of performing a charge.
Whether Pounce counts as a benefit of charging or an ability tacked on after a charge, is up to the DM entirely since it isn't spelled out (much like most other corner cases of Pounce, such as when combined with Rhino Charge feat).
Again, the FAQ on mounted charges resolves this. Since both rider and mount are using the charge action, the rider qualifies to use pounce. He just needs to overcome the limitation on not being able to make more than a single attack if his mount moves more than 5 feet. There is actually some ambiguity there though. You could argue that since pounce allows you to full attack at the end of a charge, it already overcomes that limitation. However, IMHO, since pounce doesn't specifically address mounted combat or its restrictions, you still need a separate mechanic that does, such as Mounted Skirmisher.
Isn't this the classic Rage Lance Pounce question?
LBT Changes your hands to claws, so you can't hold weapons (unless you have more than two hands).
BT your hands are still claws from LBT
GBT your hands are still claws from BT and LBT, so when you pounce you have the two claw attacks.Yes, you are correct that pounce doesn't state natural attacks only. But I only see it given to those with natural attacks.
Where is it stated that you can not hold weapons if you have claws on your hands?
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Where is it stated that you can not hold weapons if you have claws on your hands?
LBT Changes your hands to claws, so you can't hold weapons (unless you have more than two hands).
BT your hands are still claws from LBT
GBT your hands are still claws from BT and LBT, so when you pounce you have the two claw attacks.Yes, you are correct that pounce doesn't state natural attacks only. But I only see it given to those with natural attacks.
Nowhere.
This interpretation is not supported anywhere in the rules related to natural attacks or the beast totem chain.
(for the sake of completion I do believe there is a template or spell somewhere that transforms your hands into claws and specifically calls out that you either can't use manufactured weapons or you take a penalty to use them while your hands are transformed. Lesser Beast Totem is not one of those things)
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This is a rough stat block of AM BARBARIAN, the ragelancepounce character for whom lances were nerfed.
AM BARBARIAN
Human (Shoanti) barbarian (invulnerable rager) 20 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 79)
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +25
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 19, flat-footed 24 (+9 armor, +5 deflection, +4 Dex)
hp 236 (20d12+100)
Fort +22, Ref +15, Will +14; +4 and one size larger to resist effects of wind, +11 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities while raging but must resist all spells, even allies'
Defensive Abilities fortification 25%, indomitable will; DR 10/—, 20/lethal; Resist cold 5, extreme endurance; SR 22
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee observed state +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d8+20 nonlethal/×3 plus 1d6 non-lethal)
Special Attacks mighty rage (50 rounds/day), rage powers (beast totem[APG], beast totem, greater[APG], beast totem, lesser[APG], eater of magic[UC], ferocious mount[APG], ferocious mount, greater[APG], ghost rager[UC], reckless abandon[APG], smasher[APG], spell sunder[UC], strength surge +20, superstition +11, witch hunter[APG])
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Statistics
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Str 30, Dex 18, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 11
Base Atk +20; CMB +30 (+32 sunder); CMD 49 (51 vs. sunder)
Feats Antagonize[UM], Extra Rage Power[APG], Extra Rage Power[APG], Extra Rage Power[APG], Improved Sunder, Leadership, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Raging Vitality[APG], Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge
Traits auspicious tattoo (shoanti), berserker of the society
Skills Acrobatics +9 (+13 to jump), Climb +15, Fly +9, Handle Animal +22, Intimidate +23, Knowledge (engineering) +22, Perception +25, Ride +27, Survival +7, Swim +15
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Shoanti
SQ fast movement, tireless rage
Combat Gear scarab of protection, wayfinder, ebon; Other Gear +5 light fortification mithral chain shirt, observed state, belt of physical perfection +6, boots of speed, goz mask[ISWG], headband of mental superiority +4, manual of gainful exercise +5, necklace of adaptation, ring of spell turning, ring of splendid security, wings of flying, dire bat, 15,990 gp
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Special Abilities
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Antagonize Use Diplomacy or Intimidate to goad creatures
Beast Totem +6 (Su) +6 to Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Damage Reduction (10/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Damage Reduction (20/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Eater of Magic (1/rage) (Su) Reroll if fail save vs. spell/Su ability. If reroll succeeds, negate effect & gain temp Hp for 1 min.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Extreme Endurance (Cold) (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Ferocious Mount (Ex) Your mount rages, too.
Ferocious Mount, Greater (Ex) Mount gains constant rage powers.
Fly (60 feet, Average) You can fly!
Fortification 25% You have a chance to negate critical hits on attacks.
Ghost Rager +7 (Su) Full damage to incorporeal creatures, morale bonus to touch AC when raging (max normal AC)
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Indomitable Will (Ex) +4 bonus to Will saves vs. enchantment spells.
Leadership (score 20) You attract loyal companions and devoted followers.
Mounted Combat (1/round) Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (50 rounds/day) (Ex) +8 Str, +10 Con, +4 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Reckless Abandon (+/-6) (Ex) Trade AC penalty for to hit bonus while raging.
Ride-By Attack You can move - attack - move when charging mounted.
Smasher (1/rage) (Ex) 1/rage, ignore the hardness of an unattended object.
Spell Resistance (22) You have Spell Resistance.
Spell Sunder (1/rage) (Su) Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect's
Spirited Charge Double damage when making a mounted charge (triple with a lance).
Strength Surge +20 (1/rage) (Ex) As an imm action, gain a bonus to one STR check, CMB or CMD.
Superstition +11 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs. magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Tireless Rage (Ex) Ending Rage no longer results in fatigue.
Witch Hunter +6 (Ex) Bonus to damage spellcasters while raging.
I haven't done the tweaks to make him AM BARBARIAN Phd.
LBT Changes your hands to claws, so you can't hold weapons (unless you have more than two hands).
BT your hands are still claws from LBT
GBT your hands are still claws from BT and LBT, so when you pounce you have the two claw attacks.Yes, you are correct that pounce doesn't state natural attacks only. But I only see it given to those with natural attacks.
You've made incorrect assumptions.
Yes, Beast Totem gives you claws, that doesn't mean you can't use weapons in those hands. Please show where it states that getting claws means you can't hold weapons, and then you might have an argument.
It's a good point that this character is just basically RageLancePounce. Which is where the FAQ i posted earlier came from, the thread discussing ragelancepounce resulted in that FAQ being formed. And ragelancepounce doesn't have Mounted Skirmisher.
It works like this: Specific rules trump general rules.
The general rules is, you can't make more than 1 attack if your mount moves more than 5ft.
The specific rule is pounce allows you to make a full attack after a charge (including a mounted charge).
Specific trumps general, so while generally you can't make more than 1 attack if your mount moves more than 5ft, pounce works the way it says it works. Come on, you also generally can't make more than 1 attack if you move more than 5ft, but pounce still works just fine when you charge. It's the exact same scenario, but on a horse.
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It works like this: Specific rules trump general rules.The general rules is, you can't make more than 1 attack if your mount moves more than 5ft.
The specific rule is pounce allows you to make a full attack after a charge (including a mounted charge).Specific trumps general, so while generally you can't make more than 1 attack if your mount moves more than 5ft, pounce works the way it says it works. Come on, you also generally can't make more than 1 attack if you move more than 5ft, but pounce still works just fine when you charge. It's the exact same scenario, but on a horse.
I don't know that this interpretation is necessarily correct. You could just as easily say that the the general rule is that pounce allows you to full attack when charging (as there is no mention of mounted combat at all), but the specific rule for mounted combat is that you can make only a single attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet. Pounce is a general ability that modifies charges, but has no language negating the specific limitations of mounted combat. That would mean you need both Mounted Skirmisher and pounce to execute a charging full attack.
Strongly disagree.
The mounted combat says that if you move more than 5ft, that's very general.
Pounce is very specific in scope, you charge, you get to full attack.
Movement rules are general, charging rules are a specific subset of rules that involve moving and attack.
I can't see an argument where pounce isn't the more specific rule in this case.
And beyond all that, the FAQ I referenced mentioned nothing of Mounted Skirmisher and acknowledges that you can make full attacks. Ragelancepounce was the reason for the FAQ and Ragelancepounce definitely doesn't have Mounted Skirmisher. Shouldn't the devs have said something if it didn't work back then?
That ragelancepounce doesnt work any more, cant handle animal as a free action.
Why does he need handle animal? The rules about mounted combat have always been a bit funky, but unless your saying a mounted combatant without a bonded mount (who can handle animal as a free action) can't use the RIDE skill, to make his mount charge...
Well it could be that mechanically it is required since charge requires making an attack at the end, and you can't command your mount to attack as a free action without it being bonded.
That whole interaction of the rules is a bit...difficult to interpret.
However, looking at the Tricks that Handle Animal is needed to perform, charge isn't one of them. Though I do admit its still a weird situation since charging involves making an attack which is a trick.
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Strongly disagree.
The mounted combat says that if you move more than 5ft, that's very general.
Pounce is very specific in scope, you charge, you get to full attack.
Movement rules are general, charging rules are a specific subset of rules that involve moving and attack.
I can't see an argument where pounce isn't the more specific rule in this case.
And beyond all that, the FAQ I referenced mentioned nothing of Mounted Skirmisher and acknowledges that you can make full attacks. Ragelancepounce was the reason for the FAQ and Ragelancepounce definitely doesn't have Mounted Skirmisher. Shouldn't the devs have said something if it didn't work back then?
The FAQ was neutral on how you get the option to full attack, and merely addresses what happens if/when you can. It also came out after Mounted Skirmisher but but before the FAQ that made it so that the rider was taking the charge action in the first place, and in the thread leading to that FAQ SKR even noted that it was made with the assumption that the rider is not the one charging in the first place.
Pounce generally allows you to full attack at the end of a charge, but mounted combat specifically limits your ability to make more than one melee attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet. I would call that the more specific ruling, especially since it's entirely unique to fighting in melee while mounted; you can still full attack with ranged weapons. So pounce references what generally happens when you charge and have that ability, but mounted combat specifically limits the number of melee attacks you can make when your mount moves more than 5 feet. If you had a full attack action you could take while only making a single attack, then pounce would enable that, but my reading is that you have to have a mechanic that specifically addresses the mounted combat limitations, like Mounted Skirmisher.
We can back and forth about which each of thinks is the general and specific rules and neither of us are ever going to be convinced.
I definitely wouldn't call it unique since the rules are always generally moving more than 5ft prevents you from making a full attack. I have always viewed it as a reminder that even though you aren't spending the move action when your mount moves, that doesn't allow you to make a full attack.
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Strongly disagree.
The mounted combat says that if you move more than 5ft, that's very general.
Pounce is very specific in scope, you charge, you get to full attack.
Movement rules are general, charging rules are a specific subset of rules that involve moving and attack.
I can't see an argument where pounce isn't the more specific rule in this case.
And beyond all that, the FAQ I referenced mentioned nothing of Mounted Skirmisher and acknowledges that you can make full attacks. Ragelancepounce was the reason for the FAQ and Ragelancepounce definitely doesn't have Mounted Skirmisher. Shouldn't the devs have said something if it didn't work back then?
The FAQ was neutral on how you get the option to full attack, and merely addresses what happens if/when you can. It also came out after Mounted Skirmisher but but before the FAQ that made it so that the rider was taking the charge action in the first place, and in the thread leading to that FAQ SKR even noted that it was made with the assumption that the rider is not the one charging in the first place.
Pounce generally allows you to full attack at the end of a charge, but mounted combat specifically limits your ability to make more than one melee attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet. I would call that the more specific ruling, especially since it's entirely unique to fighting in melee while mounted; you can still full attack with ranged weapons. So pounce references what generally happens when you charge and have that ability, but mounted combat specifically limits the number of melee attacks you can make when your mount moves more than 5 feet. If you had a full attack action you could take while only making a single attack, then pounce would enable that, but my reading is that you have to have a mechanic that specifically addresses the mounted combat limitations, like Mounted Skirmisher.
Charging and mounted combat are both much more common and freely available than pounce. Pounce is clearly not the general rule.
The rule for a single attack is clearly explained as preventing full-attacks so that people can't argue that their horse moved, not them, so they still get full-attack. Pounce was not available to players at the time those rules were written.
Pounce does not need a nerf, ragelancepounce is/was silly theory-crafting and has already been nerfed by Paizo. People on the boards don't need to knock it down further as it will almost never see play.
If a barbarian has the rare opportunity to attack from a mounted charge then rule-of-cool says that Pounce should be kept. I'd love to add a rule allowing a leap off the horse at the same time for great cinematics.
Can you explain? I don't see where it does notThat ragelancepounce doesnt work any more, cant handle animal as a free action.Riding a mount does not require a handle animal check.
Can you explain? I don't see where it does.
Riding a mount is covered by using the ride skill.
telling an animal to attack is covered by handle animal
Right, but telling them to charge isn't (it's literally not trick whereas attack is). It's really weird rules interaction.
Because it means if you don't have a bonded animal you can't charge from horseback, which probably isn't the intention. Especially since the rules say if the mount charges you charge, and due to the action economy only a person that could handle animal for free could order the horse to charge and charge themselves.
The main problem is that charging requires you make an attack at the end, but it should be possible for the mount to charge, not make an attack, and for the rider to benefit from making a mounted charge. However, the rules interaction on how this actually works is....uncertain.
I think the answer is, you can get the horse to charge but need to make a handle animal check to actually make them attack. Whether or not this should invalidate the charge, well I don't think so.
I mean if suddenly no one can make a mounted charge without a bonded animal it would really change a decent amount or existing lore for the world.
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Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
Ah! Good find! So you just need a combat trained mount.
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Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
That allows you to attack if your mount does. It doesn't cover actually commanding your mount to attack, that requires the Handle Animal skill. Note what it actually says:
"If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action."It does not say "You may command your mount to attack using the Ride skill as a free action."
So to be clear, there is no valid variation of the English language where the Ride skill allows you to command your animal to attack, there is only a check you can make to allow yourself to attack in the same round as your mount.
Commanding an animal to attack requires Handle Animal. Given that charge is part of the Special Attack Actions sections, you would need to use the Attack Handle Animal trick to command your mount to charge, moving as you direct per the mounted combat rules. Then, you would need to make a Ride check per the fighting with a combat trained mount option to allow yourself to also make an attack.
Which would ultimately mean you have to have a bonded mount to make a mounted charge, which I think is obviously a wrong conclusion (though may be supported by the rules as is) because it would prevent warriors or other NPC classes from being mounted lancers.
Sine the majority of the game world is composed of NPC classes (including the warriors that make up armies that probably include some lancers) this mostly seems like a problem with the mounted combat rules, of which there are sh*t ton.
And, this is really a side argument that doesn't have a lot of bearing to the original argument. If anything it only demonstrates that the mounted rules suck and need a rewrite.
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.That allows you to attack if your mount does. It doesn't cover actually commanding your mount to attack, that requires the Handle Animal skill. Note what it actually says:
"If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action."It does not say "You may command your mount to attack using the Ride skill as a free action."
Um, no, that's literally what that says.
So to be clear, there is no valid variation of the English language where the Ride skill allows you to command your animal to attack,
The only possible interpretation of that entry is direct your mount to attack is a free action Ride check. No handle animal required.
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Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.That allows you to attack if your mount does. It doesn't cover actually commanding your mount to attack, that requires the Handle Animal skill. Note what it actually says:
"If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action."It does not say "You may command your mount to attack using the Ride skill as a free action."
Um, no, that's literally what that says.
So to be clear, there is no valid variation of the English language where the Ride skill allows you to command your animal to attack,The only possible interpretation of that entry is direct your mount to attack is a free action Ride check. No handle animal required.
Yeah, no. That's literally not how the English language works. This is fairly basic reading comprehension stuff here. Let's look at a similarly structured rules element:
Furious Focus says "When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack's penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn." Now, what does that have to do with anything? Well, if the way you're trying to interpret the "fight with a combat trained mount" rules were applied to this situation, it would mean that having the Furious Focus feat gives you Power Attack. After all, it says that when you use Power Attack, you don't take the penalty to your attack rolls, ergo by your logic that means the feat gives you Power Attack, because it references you using it.Read the "Fight With a Combat Trained Mount" rules one more time: "If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action."
Now, in Furious Focus, we have a condition that sets up the ability. "When you [use Power Attack]". This tells us when you may use the ability. We see the same thing in the "Fight With A Combat-Trained Mount" rules: "If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle". This doesn't allow us to do anything yet, it just tells us the conditions under which we may do it. Now, Furious Focus goes on to say "you do not suffer Power Attack's penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn". This is the actual benefit. This is what Furious Focus does. So let's look at the FWACTM rules- "you can still make your own attack or attacks normally". This the benefit. When you direct your combat-trained mount to attack, you may make a Ride check that allows you to make your own attacks normally. It doesn't allow you to meet the condition of directing your mount to attack any more than Furious Focus allows you to use Power Attack; you need other mechanics to enable that, namely the Handle Animal skill and the Power Attack feat, respectively. That's how the English language works.
Now, if your argument is actually not about what the rules actually say, which is very clear and not in support of your argument, but that they're intended to say something completely different and were written and edited by someone who can't structure a sentence... Well, that's a little outside the scope of a rules discussion. I do not have a time machine, nor am I psychic, and even if I were, proving that someone screwed up somewhere doesn't actually fix anything. The rules would still say something completely different than what you're trying to interpret them to say.
How about we get back to the original argument?
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The original argument being: Normally, you can pounce when you charge, but when you are mounted, you can only make 1 attack if your mount moves more than five feet. Since pounce doesn't specify you can pounce mounted (or that it, in any way, overrides the rule that you only get one attack), it would seem that you cannot do a mounted pounce, unless you have Mounted Skirmisher (and the mount doesn't move very far on the charge).
Someone earlier said that you normally only get one attack when you move, unmounted, but that is different. That is due to only getting a standard action, having used your movement to move.
As to which is general or specific, I don't view either as being either.
One is mounted rules, one concerns charge rules. Apples and oranges. I don't know how the two rules are supposed to interact, is the problem.
Indeed, that is about the size of the situation.
Except I strongly view the rules of pouncing (which isn't even just charging but a very specific rule) to be more specific and thus higher in importance in regards to what you can do. There are even FAQs that hint at it by not addressing anything to do with Mounted Skirmisher, but don't directly make a statement that it's not required.
There is also the FAQ that says when your mount charges you charge, and if you charge you should benefit from pounce.
The problem is there are a few different parts which you can interpret either way, but we don't have direct official statements.
It is worth noting that I believe that majority of the community wouldn't consider this an issue and most people would land on the side of pounce working, for what it's worth.
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The original argument being: Normally, you can pounce when you charge, but when you are mounted, you can only make 1 attack if your mount moves more than five feet. Since pounce doesn't specify you can pounce mounted (or that it, in any way, overrides the rule that you only get one attack), it would seem that you cannot do a mounted pounce, unless you have Mounted Skirmisher (and the mount doesn't move very far on the charge).
Someone earlier said that you normally only get one attack when you move, unmounted, but that is different. That is due to only getting a standard action, having used your movement to move.
As to which is general or specific, I don't view either as being either.
One is mounted rules, one concerns charge rules. Apples and oranges. I don't know how the two rules are supposed to interact, is the problem.
You basically covered my take. Pounce applies to charges in general, but since it doesn't specifically address the completely separate limitation of mounted combat limiting your number of melee attacks when your mount moves more than 5 feet, you still need to remove that restriction, which is what Mounted Skirmisher does.
To put that in context a bit, it's completely unrelated to the basic action economy of an unmounted character. After all, you can command your mount to double move as a free action, but even if you have a full round's worth of actions at the end of that movement, you can't make a full attack. Conversely, if you're using a ranged weapon like a bow, you could have your mount double move and make a full attack action. So action economy simulation is not a super meaningful factor.
Mounted combat provides a specific set of options and limitations that are unique to what's happening when you are riding a mount. In Pathfinder, rules do exactly what they say they do, and nothing else. In the same way that a mounted character could ride a charging mount but not use the charge action himself and instead leverage that action economy for almost any combination of allowed actions except making more than one melee attack, pounce allows the action economy, but does not break the restriction. If you had an ability that allowed you to execute a full attack while making only one actual melee attack, pounce would facilitate that. What pounce doesn't do, because it doesn't say it does it, is override the completely separate restriction that limits mounted characters to a single melee attack. You need a mechanic that specifically addresses that, like Mounted Skirmisher.
It is worth noting that I believe that majority of the community wouldn't consider this an issue and most people would land on the side of pounce working, for what it's worth.
Yeah, people generally like to think that the majority agrees with them, that doesn't mean they're correct, nor does it mean that even if they are correct about that assumption that they're correct about the thing people agree with them on.
From a comparative balance perspective, mounted combat is already ridiculously strong compared to other forms of melee combat. A mounted full attack with a lance and Spirited Charge from a character with four attacks from BAB and haste already allows you to make essentially seven attacks with two-handed Power Attack and even two-handed Strength bonuses if you want to forego a shield. By the time most characters can access pounce, they'll already have ready access to the first 4 or 5 of those attacks, and we're not even touching on the attacks the mount itself can make. This is why ragelancepounce was so crazy in the first place, and why it was even crazier when Paizo opened the door back up for it by changing the mounted combat rules.
Given that, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that everyone in the community agrees with a statement that is at best maybe possibly shakily allowed by a clumsy patchwork of FAQs and unrelated rules interactions.