Months ago my first Pathfinder character choice was the Ranger, as I wanted to make a ranged combat character. After taking out 1 pre=generated Ranger into a game and seeing all the limitations(pathetic spells, underleveled pet, split melee/ranged equipment feats, specilized in certain enemies/terrains) I thought I could either improve or find an equivalent character.
Well I found Archery specialists. Fighter is good with or without the Archer archetype because of bonus feats. Monk with Zen Archer Archetype has most Archery feats as bonuses and has alot of attacks through Flurry. Ranger Divine Marksmen archetype loses ranger spells but gains some bonuses.
The Slayer is one that intrigue me because Study Target grants unbiased bonuses against ANYTHING and for an unlimited duration. Having a Warrior/Skillmonkey might be fun as I want to do more than one party role.
The problem is the class features. Study Target is a very versatile bonus, but after that you dont get much. You don't get an animal companion or spells, and the Slayer's capabilities as a rogue are reduced. Slayer's can only get Evasion at level 10+ and only in lower armor than their maximum, Mithril Breastplate.
Slayer talents are somewhat mediocre because most are just Rogue talents or class features. Many grant bonuses to stealthing, which isnt that great in the first place. Once combat begins those go way. Bonus sneak damage to flanking is nice, but slayer not as good as a Rogue. Ranger Combat styles are also nice, too bad you can only get 3 out of 5.
The Slayer feels like a good idea to improve on the Ranger and Rogue, but misses the key features that make either one good.
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Now to the actual advice part.
Here is a simple build I got up of an Archer build slayer made using the ability score system for Pathfinder Society.
Race is Half-Orc for +2 ability bonus, darkvision, and Sacred tattoos racial ability.
Str 16(5) Dex 15(7)+2, con 14(5) INT 12(2) Wis 10(0) CHA 7(-4)
20 point character
Feats and slayer talents:
1 Point blank shot
2 Precise Shot
3 Rapid Shot
4 Trapfinding
5 Deadly aim
6 Point Blank Master
7 Manyshot
8 Combat Trick: Clustered Shots
9 (open)
10 Pinpoint Targeting
11 Improved Precise Shot
To function as a rogue replacement multiclassing might help. Dipping 2 levels into the Rogue for Evasion and Trapfinding, and from the Unchained Rogue free Weapon Finesses feat. Sniper Goggles magic item seem almost must-have because they let you make sneak attacks from any range. One advanced rogue talent actually makes it so its easier to stay stealthed while making ranged attacks. Not quite as effective as a Rogue duel-wielding weapons and attacking you from flank.
Edit: Without Spellcasting ability I dont know if this is useful as a long-term character. There isnt much to gain past level 11 even outside of the Pathfinder Society as its all just Rogue Talents.
Gravity Bow and Instant Enemy alone make Ranger spellcasting awesome, and there are many other greats on there. And take Boon Companion as your level 5 feat and you are equivalent to a Druid on Animal Companion level (and if power is what matters to you, take the Wolf or Small Cat).
As for the Slayer, they are one of my buddies favorite classes, he played a TWF Slayer to deadly efficiency. But anyway, Slayers get access to a great archery archytype, the Sniper, check it out (new version, post errata), its good. But an archery focus on a full BAB class in Pathfinder is stupid good in its own right.
dandy ranger = archer + skillmonkey + minicaster
You shouldn't dismiss Stealth as useless once combat starts, especially for an archer. Sniping can be hard to get off the ground, but once you do it's pretty great.
-20 Stealth check to attack and hide again.
Be a Halfling. Small gives +4 on Stealth, Swift as Shadows racial trait reduces Sniping penalty by 10, +4 bonus from single skillpoint and class skill bonus, +3(+4) bonus from your 16(18) Dex. At level 3 you qualify to take Expert Sniper, reducing your Sniping penalty all the way to 0. At level 6 you can continue that feat chain to shoot twice when you Snipe.
Camouflage blankets allow you to hide anywhere, and it only costs 120gp to cover all the non-planar terrain types. If you use a crossbow or shurikens, you can snipe while prone under the blanket for another +2 Stealth.
Most importantly, Perception check take a penalty for every 10 feet away the thing they attempt to perceive is. You can sneak attack from 30 feet away, +3 bonus on Stealth. You can give up your sneak attacks and just guarantee staying hidden by being much further away.
All this for two feats, a skill point per level, 120 gp and your race.
You can combine Stygian slayer with the sniper archetype. Stygian is very good for getting into out of the way sniping locations.
I dont know why you would pick a Slayer if your just going to play it exactly as a Rogue.
I dont know if the Ranger/Rogue abilities are actually compatible. You would need to be able to make all your attacks each turn into stealth attacks for the bonus damage. Seven two weapon attacks isnt a problem, but 6 ranged attacks are.
Using sniper goggles to get a long range sneak attack could work well by itself, but +1d6x0-6 is competing with making 1-6 regular attacks with a Composite Longbow. Using Feats and traits to make you better at ranged stealth attacks wont help you when not stealthed.
Note: Sniper Archetype is questionable at best. Its first ability is just a limited form of the Far Shot feat. Its other ability is a weaker form the lesser Sniper Goggles, and it is only usable one per target. I can easily imagine any enemy yelling "Ive been shot" and making the whole ability one-per-combat if youre lucky.
The vanguard and stygian Slayer Archeypes are decent, and good respectively, but they slow down Slayer talent gain, especially the Ranger Combat Styles. Theyre not banned in the Pathfinder Society, but that really hurts.
Im not trying to make an exclusive sniper build. Im trying to see if the class abiltities can synergise well as its own class instead of a Ranger without pets or a rogue without key rogue abiltities. Study Target is nice, but its not an ability that can carry you in every situation. I think that is why the Slayer is considered low tier.
Right now it just looks like a Rogue that trades off rogue special abiltities for higher BAB, study target, and 3 ranger feats
The rogue is slow on BAB, which means slower access to archery feats, and the ranger's greatest strength, instant enemy, has a short range.
The slayer has the accuracy, abilities and feats to make a strong archer. As for "tiers", I'm pretty sure all 3 classes are on the same one. And tiers are more about versatility than combat strength anyway.
While slayers have sneak attack, they don't rely on it the way rogues do. A slayer with just his studied target and combat feats does well in combat. For a slayer, sneak attack is just a nice occaisional bonus.
The Slayer is a better frontline warrior than the Rogue which practically REQUIRES you to be flanking, otherwise theyre stuck to using one or two one-handed weapons.
The Slayer by comparison CAN flank for extra damage, but still has stronger weapons and armor. The attack roll difference is huge when you combine full BAB and Study target.
The durability difference is also notable, as +1 hit point per level, and an effective +2 AC from Medium armor helps.
The problem is unless you can combine things like flank damage from the Rogue with something from the Ranger you dont get a fusion character, but just a confused one that cant do either thing well enough.
If you could combine Full-attack with Stealth, that would be awesome, and still be situational because of how limited stealth can be.
I'm playing one kind of like that right now. He just hit level 3...and here is what he looks like:
Sanctified Slayer
Dwarf
Str16 Dex16 Con14 Int10 Wis14 Cha7
Conversion Inquisition (replace Cha with Wis for diplomacy, intimidate and bluff)
1. Point Blank Shot
3. Precise Shot
I like sanctified slayer, as studied target is a move action that gives you bonuses to hit, damage, bluff and sense motive.
With equipment, studied target, and cracked Ioun Stones, he looks like this...
Initiative: +6
To hit and damage is the same with bow or hammer.
To hit: +6/+7 (with studied target)
Damage: 1d8+3/4 (with studied target)
Skill wise...
Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff: +7
Stealth, Survival, Perception: +8
Sense Motive: +9
Disable Device: +10
And then he gets a solid smattering of skills in a handful of knowledge/profession/climb/ride skills.
Add it all together with spells, AC18 and good saves (+5 fortitude, +5 will, +4 reflex, +2 to all of them vs spells and poison) and you get a good all around character.
Need someone to talk? He can do it.
Need someone to sneak around? He can do it.
Need someone to find and disable nonmagical traps? He can do it.
By lvl 8 he can also disable magical traps.
Need someone to jump into the front lines? He can do it.
Need someone to sit back and shoot? He can do it.
Need someone to be a healer? He can do it.
I highly recommend this kind of character. Unlike a normal slayer, you still get all of your speaking skills, and you get true strike. Don't shoot this turn, but get +20 to hit on your next shot. Situational, but amazing when needed.
Sure, you don't get sneak attack until lvl 4. But at lvl 3 you get solo tactics and precise strike. If you and an ally flank the same target, you get +1d6 precision damage. Add that to sneak attack and you end up with a great all rounder who can fill almost any role that your group needs.
I might be wrong, but the Sanctified Slayer is an Inquisitor archetype, right?
The trait Deadeye Bowman gives you 90% of what you want out of Improved Precise Shot. If you go human then you can start out with Precise Shot and save yourself a lot of hassle.
As a dedicated archer IMO you're ok to skimp a little on CON since you shouldn't be absorbing as many hits. Your job is to pour on consistent damage. If you remember to bring your blunt arrows and your weapon blanched arrows then you should always be able to bring the appropriate sort of pain on demand.
In addition to the classes people have discussed, the Barbarian can be a surprisingly good archer. The feat load is a little rough, but you get full BAB and once you pick up an adaptive bow you start dealing out some real damage. There are also rage powers that complement an archery role (surprise accuracy, reckless abandon, sharpened accuracy, witch hunter) plus the always-nice ones like superstition.
Multiple people have suggested Deadeye Bowman trait, but its a much weaker version of Improved Precise Shot.
Is there a way to actually swap it out for something useful when a character actually gets Improved Precise Shot so it doesnt become useless trait slot waste?
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Multiple people have suggested Deadeye Bowman trait, but its a much weaker version of Improved Precise Shot.
Is there a way to actually swap it out for something useful when a character actually gets Improved Precise Shot so it doesnt become useless trait slot waste?
Only one way I know: if you originally got it from Additional Traits, retrain that into something else.
Though a trait that is "only" good for the first five levels can still be a decent investment. Even if it's not as good as IPS it's still very good.
ChaosTicket, you might have better luck posing your query over on the Giant in the Playground forums, they tend to share your mentality of how you view the game, usually being very mechanics/optimization first (everything else second).
ChaosTicket, you might have better luck posing your query over on the Giant in the Playground forums, they tend to share your mentality of how you view the game, usually being very mechanics/optimization first (everything else second).
Porque?
I dont think there is a Pathfinder section for Order of the Stick.
I dont know if youre talking to me.
The Ranger Animal companion isnt terrible, but its minor compared to the Druid, which gets it at level 1 and doesnt require a feat to make it equal to your character level.
The spells, well theyre not a big list. Being a tier 4 caster means youll be worse at casting too.
Note: I might be wrong but multiclassing Saves stack. BAB also stacks, but if youre a 0+ BAB class that doesnt help.
Edit: The Rangers animal companion and tier 4 spells are better than nothing. That can be a greater benefit than sneak damage. A major difference is between the Ranger's favored Enemy bonus and Slayer's Study Target. Study Target is less powerful, but its useful against 100% of enemies, compared to favored enemy having a very small selection. If the Ranger traded Favored enemy for Study Target, it would be a huge improvement in my opinion.
Instant Eenemy? Lets look that up. tier 3 spell, so dont get access to that until level 11. Short range, Affects ONE enemy, maximum 3 uses at level 19.
Ive fought alot of varied monsters in the Pathfinder Society. Favored Enemy could be useful, but you would basically need a full campaign and knowledge of what enemies you will be fighting.
Ranger is the only class I know of that has such an overspecialized attack ability. Inquisitor, Bard, and others are useful on about everything. They have limited uses but are far, far more versatile on the targets.
Instant enemy is so overly good you will probably use your higher level slots on it too. The short range still isn't good for an archer though.
ChaosTicket, you might have better luck posing your query over on the Giant in the Playground forums, they tend to share your mentality of how you view the game, usually being very mechanics/optimization first (everything else second).Porque?
I dont think there is a Pathfinder section for Order of the Stick.
The 3E/d20 Forum also covers Pathfinder. As you can see on the first page there are several threads that have the Pathfinder tag.