Just stumbled across a sweet combo that allows you to take 3 attacks in retaliation of one opposition attack. The best part? It works from level 4 onwards. All youu need is a flying blade Swashbuckler and the one handed weapon trick feat. Here's how it works.
a) Opponent attacks
b) You spend a panache point on unbalancing counter and take and attack of opportunity.
c) If you hit opponent takes -4 to his attack.
d) Now you burn yet another panache and another AoO and parry and riposte. Remember your opponents -4 to hit?
e) If your opponents attack roll (-4) was up to 5 points lower than your AC you get yet another AoO from stylish riposte. This part only works once per day per opponent.
So for this to work you need a high AC, high to hit and a large Panache pool. Ideally you should be dealing decent damage on a single hit so that you can kill your opponent with a flurry of ripostes. If you have a fortious weapon you can take 5 retalitory attacks...ouch.
Mackie Messer
Human Swashbuckler (Flying Blade)
STR 8 DEX 20 CON 12 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA 14
Traits: Fencer, Irrepressible
Feats:
1 WF (Dagger)
1 Slashing Grace
3 Combat Reflexes
4 Bonus Feat Weapon Trick (One handed)
5 Extra Panache
7 Deific Obedience (Pharasma)
8 Dodge?
9 Weapon Spec
11 ???
First of all you only get a single attack of opportunity per round, unless you have combat reflexes. Even with combat reflexes you can only take a single attack of opportunity per action that provokes it. Since the thing that is provoking the attacks of opportunity is a single attack that means that you can only get a single attack of opportunity off of it.
Also the penalty to hit form Disrupting Counter would not apply to the original attack anyways because it is made before the Disrupting Counter took place. You cannot retroactively apply penalties on things that have already happened. If this were true that would mean that all the attacks that the opponent had made in the past take a -4 to hit making some of them now miss and changing history.
Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
Sorry but this simply does not work. About the only thing you have right is that with a Fortuitous weapon you can get a second attack of opportunity against a foe assuming you hit, but it is at a -5 penalty.
Well since Combat Reflexes is a prerequisite for Stylish Riposte it was already planned for.
I totally disagree with you that I can't take multiple attacks of opportunity here and you already provided the relevant rules text, but you bolded the wrong part. Let me correct that.
This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).
If you have a look at the abilities mentioned above you will see that they all have different trigger conditions for taking the AoO and in the case of Opportune Parry and Riposte you are not actually technically making an AoO. You might be able to argue that you can't Apply disrupting counter and opprtune parry and riposte to the same opposition attack. But since technically you aren't taking an AoO the language from combat reflexes is not applicable.
Also the language on how AoO disrupt the normal flow of actions makes it quite clear that disrupting counter and all it's effects resolve before the opponents initial attack resolve. Thus the -4 to attacks clearly applies to the current attack.
For reference here's the relevant rules text:
When your AC exceeds the result of a foe's melee attack against you by 5 or more, that foe provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Once you make such an attack of opportunity against a foe, you can't again use this trick against the foe that day. If her result is greater than the attacking creature's result, the creature's attack automatically misses. The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature's attack is announced, but before its attack roll is made.
At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack. The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity; for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2 penalty on this roll.
All of these are being triggered by the exact same melee attack, so you cannot use them together.
Disrupting Counter:
At 3rd level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against her, she can spend 1 panache point to make an attack of opportunity against the attacking foe. This attack of opportunity can be made with either a dagger or a starknife. If the attack hits, the opponent takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls until the end of its turn.
Stylish Riposte:
When your AC exceeds the result of a foe's melee attack against you by 5 or more, that foe provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Once you make such an attack of opportunity against a foe, you can't again use this trick against the foe that day. If her result is greater than the attacking creature's result, the creature's attack automatically misses. The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature's attack is announced, but before its attack roll is made.
Opportune Parry and Riposte:
At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack. The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity; for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2 penalty on this roll.
Technically the attack of opportunity from the opportune parry and riposte is being triggered by your parry, but the parry itself is being triggered by the original melee attack. You would need three separate attacks for this to work.
Stylish rogue does not trigger off of your AC it triggers off the melee attack. The AC requirement is an additional limitation on the trick.
However the triggering conditions are not the same, nor is the time point at which the AoO triggers the same for Stylish Riposte and Disrupting couter. One triggers when the opponent attacks, the other after the attack is resolved. To me those are seperate things especially as they trigger off different abilities.
Ultimately it comes down to how you define opportunities. Sadly I don't know of any rules precedent or FAQ that would clarify this. Your argument to me is too simplistic and also not overly precise as you seem to be institing that it's the same action but this is not the language used in the AoO rules text which explicitly calls out opportunities and actually does not mention actions.
I'd be happy if a few more folks could weigh in on the matter. Maybe I should move that to the rules questions...
The parts I bolded show that the triggering condition is the same. All of them are triggered off the same melee attack The reason my argument is simplistic is that it is not a complicated situation. I walk up to you and stab you with a sword. That is a single attack, which means that it will trigger at most one attack of opportunity. Also all those abilities specifically call out being triggered by a melee attack even though there are other things that can trigger an attack of opportunity. You cannot use them when someone cast a spell or makes a ranged attack. If the spell requires a touch attack then the touch attack qualifies.
You're not gonna convince me and I'm not gonna convince you...I did put up a thread in the rules questions board in the hopes of getting some additional oppinions.
I agree with Mysterious, you can't have more than one AoO on the same action. You are spending a pinache point to force an AoO. You can't have another AoO for that attack. Now you can use the others listed, if the attacker has multiple attacks per round.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
It has been established with Greater Trip / Vicious Stomp that multiple AoOs can be triggered by different aspects of the same action.
Now, on the other hand, if your GM allows it, then by all means use it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mysterious and Debbin are both wrong. Alex Mack and Snonwlilly wins.
May it hang upon your consciences.
For added fun at higher level add in Snake Fang or Crane Riposte.
There is no room, I have other things that need to hang upon my conscience.
Reminds me a bit of... The Porcupine!
It has been established with Greater Trip / Vicious Stomp that multiple AoOs can be triggered by different aspects of the same action.
while it is the same action, it is a different trigger. One is triggered by the trip. The other is triggered by the fall.
Disrupting counter and Opportune Parry use the same trigger. Stylish riposte is different, because that is triggered by the miss, not the attack.
On the other hand, I'm going to say that this is cheesy and I will not allow it on the same attack roll at my table. I admit that this is a house rule.
Actually I might be able to see Mysterious stranger's point on Disrupting counter and Parry and riposte both triggering off the opponent making the attack, but Stylish Riposte triggers off the opponent missing the attack so that works fine with either.
That's the point I'm also debating, however Parry and Riposte isn't actually an AoO so this is kinda iffy...
Also good point about vicious stomp and Greater Trip that's sufficient precident for my tastes.
So regarding builds. I noticed human Swashbucklers can get extra panache via the FCB that makes this whole shabazz more workable as you can move Deific obedience up to 5th level. Also I guess buying a few plumes of panache is also in order to keep the steam rolling.
Would it not be better to switch to a starknife and take starry grace?
I chose dagger as this would primarily be a melee build and the extra range from Starknife isn't needed.
The Dagger's larger crit range is a pretty big deal due to Panache and so is Deific Obedience Pharasma which gives you a +2 sacred bonus to hit.
If you were to build more of a switch hitter with Quick Draw, PBS and Rapid Shot then Starknife would prolly be better but that would be rather feat intensive.
Also I'm not sure whether Slashing/Stary Grace work with ranged attacks.
Another option I debated is to try and incorporate paired opportunist as it would be pretty stellar here bt I haven't figured out any way to make it work without dipping other classes for Valet familiar.
For added fun at higher level add in Snake Fang or Crane Riposte.
I've been really wanting to work in Crane Style as it also pushes your AC to levels at which you will be getting AoO from Stylish repost on a regular basis. I doubt this can be pulled off without a dip however.
At the risk of being repetitive on the argument, I thought I'd add that I agree with Alex Mack on much of this (but not all), notwithstanding I tend to favour more conservative/restrictive meanings where I find ambiguity in the wording.
It seems clear to me, from the wording used for AOOs, that the authors described "opportunities" as the limiting factor on multiple AOOs, not actions. So the question is whether the AOOs are being triggered off the same opportinity, not off the same action.
Applied to the proposed scenario, the wording of Disrupting Counter and Stylish Ripose, at least, seem to trigger off different opportunities. One is off the initiation of an attack, and the other is off an attack missing by a certain threshold. So I think they can certainly be combined, where both opportunities arise.
For me, the ambiguity is whether you can combine Disrupting Counter and Opportune Parry & Riposte on the same attack, since both trigger off the same opportunity, namely initiation of the attack. However, as has been acknowledged above, there is some question as to whether Opp. Parry & Riposte is indeed an AOO, or whether it is something different, notwithstanding that it expends a use of an AOO.
My own feeling is that the argument for allowing both Disrupting Counter and Opp. Parry & Riposte requires too nuanced a reading of Opp. Parry & Riposte. I don't think we should read the latter as being somehow different than a "true" AOO, because the wording isn't as explicit as it possibly could be.
I recognize this might be viewed as a preference for RAI over RAW, but my view is that you can never determine meaning in ambiguous cases without considering the drafter's intent.
I also acknowledge this may not perfectly reconcile with the Designer comments in the following thread, where the abiloity is described as being both like an AOO and not (and where they endorse the view that the language used was to avoid the need for an immediate action to use the ability, and to instead have it key off the AOO usage):
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qye2?Swashbucklers-Opportune-Parry-and-Attacks -of
Thanks for pointing out that thread.
@ Alex Mack -- No problem!
What i am not certain about is a parry counts as an automatic miss so i am not sure if that still triggers "a miss at least 5 points below your AC" I would probably allow it but wouldn't be surprised if a GM rules against it.
As this has been pointed out by several folks I just wanted to clarify that this was never my intention.
Actually Parry and Riposte isn't a core component of this combo and rules wise it seems to be the most debatable aspect...personally I'm pretty sure that they are intended to work in conjunction since why would you write a one handed combat trick feat if not for the swashbuckler?
I'm also trying to figure out builds (believe it or not that was the reason for posting this idea in the advice forums ;)) and for one Crane Style might be a good addition which likely requires some sort of dip. Monk seems unsexy as flurry is a non option. Urban Bloody Knuckled rowdy is prolly better.
Hmm I wasn't actually planning on making this a ranged character, despite the archetype being named flying blade. But Far Strike monk is actually kinda interesting.
The reason I stated that flurry is a non option is slashing grace which is incompatible with flurry. Far strike monk can get rapid shot as a bonus feat so it actually doesn't need to use flurry. This is also important as the build as is needs both light armor and a Buckler to maintain a competetive AC and I definetly can't afford a decent DEX and WIS on this build.
Trained throw isn't anywhere as good as slashing grace when only dipping fighter and kinda pointless when you are mainly attacking in melee. That and loosing out on precise strike progression makes fighter a weak option.
Well, take the melee counterpart(I forgot what it's called).
A 3 level fighter dip gets me +2 damage while slashing grace, depending on how low STR goes is +6 or so damage.
If I can ever afford dueling gloves this evens out but then I'm still loosing out on 3 levels of precise strike progression.