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The acting Venture Captain over the area I am in has announced that Eyes of the Ten is probably going to be retired soon.
Is this true? I hope it isn't because we have two groups ready to play it but are waiting for life events to make it so they have time to play it. One group is waiting for someone heavily involved in a major service activity that takes up over seventy hours a week for one more year. Another group has been waiting on someone that just had a baby and he is not participating in PFS at all so he can help his wife not feel as stressed during the difficulty of raising a newborn.
Why would it need to be retired? How would retiring it benefit Pathfinder Society. Every person I have talked to that has played it has said it is a really good arc that everyone needs to experience without spoilers.
Are newer players not allowed to participate in this story arc in PFS? Sure we could just "play it outside of PFS" but I have players that don't want to finish Emerald Spire outside of PFS even though getting through all of emerald spire doesn't help a single other character of theirs in PFS and puts you well into retirement. We are currently leveling up another replacement for someone who has stepped down so we can continue in the levels where there is no Pregen the GM could play to make a table of 3 legal for PFS.
When we've had people complain about there not being enough scenarios to play, why do we need to reduce the number of scenarios available to play? Especially ones that are held in such a high esteem as these?
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Mike once said back in 2014, when this rumor first surfaced, that he'd give a minimum of 6 months notice. John and Tonya have not communicated anything different as far as I'm aware.
My guess is, that your VC is simply speculating based on there being a new seeker arc, and how outdated the seasonal plot that Eyes is tied to has become.
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I hope this isn't the case. Its a fun story arc. I think it's much better when we keep things rather then retire them.
For Example I think we should have kept on First steps part 2 to delve dungeons deep and First steps pert 3 Visions of betrayal
but anyways I had allot of fun playing Eyes of the Ten and I hope to be able to GM it some day.
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I'm happy the First Steps ones went away, because they were introducing a version of the Society to new players that no longer exists (i.e. one dominated by political nation-based factions). But yes, in general I like keeping stuff around. I've run it three times, but I've still not played Eyes myself yet, so I hoping it doesn't retire!
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Eyes works in any event, *BUT* -- it's a bit more fun if you (at least) and (better) your character has played through a number of Season 0 and Season 1 scenarios that come before it.
As long as those season/scenarios aren't retired, I don't see why there'd be a need to retire Eyes.
I've heard speculation before that it might be retired. Indeed, my local VC has speculated that it's possible that it would be retired. But, he was very clear that this was his own speculation, not anything official that he'd heard. Are you sure you understood your local VC correctly? Your VC may just have been musing rather than announcing.
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I've played Eyes, and I see no reason why it should be retired. The story is a bit old, but it isn't as if it's worthless. I'd be very surprised if it would be retired, it's a great way to finish your PFS career.
I literally just finished playing it and, while it had interesting character development options, it is incredibly dated and its continued legality has reduced options to tell very important stories. I would very much like to see it retired at the end of Season 8 so we could explore those stories in Season 9.
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I don't quite follow. Are you saying that it cannot be considered canon in future scenarios due to possible spoilers? Because that happens quite often already.
There are specific NPCs who essentially disappear from the campaign in order to maintain secrecy about the events of EotT and, while literal years have passed since those events, there are several outstanding questions that have a great deal of importance to the Society as a whole. While it did address a big part of the Shadow Lodge story arc, I would say that the ramifications of EotT simply aren't apparent outside a pile of proteges and characters who have some new titles. The end result is that the story of EotT simply doesn't matter to the campaign.
In my mind, that's a problem and the only way to address is adequately is to remove the secrecy associated with it so we can explore those stories.
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Well as time goes by, things change. However in my opinion this does not invalidate earlier scenarios.
For example the Frozen Fingers of Midnight. It was written under 3.5 rules. It has the five original nation based factions which were converted to concept based factions. Is it an invalid scenario or story line? I have a great deal of fondness for this scenario and I have seen present day audience enjoying it as well.
The Shades of Ice series also tied into the Shadow Lodge story arc, is still a fun series to play through in my opinion.
The quest for perfection series of three scenarios set in Tien Xia are tied into the Ruby Phoenix tournament which happened a few years ago. But the scenarios are still fun to play and run.
I am pretty sure people would enjoy rivalry's end will still be fun to play.
I think people would still enjoy Port Godless and Traitors Lodge.
The Scions of the Sky Key series was lots of fun. I think people will enjoy playing it even thought it is tied into season six.
I haven't had the opportunity to play much of season seven, Year of the Serpent,
but I am sure there are those adventures people will continue to enjoy playing.
So I guess even though Eyes of the Ten is five or six years old now, it still in my opinion is a good story and I think people will still enjoy playing through it.
So I hope they don't retire it. I prefer to have more options not less.
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Last time this topic came up, I did a fairly lengthy series of posts detailing my thoughts on the arc, I'd like to post an exert from one of those posts here.
When thinking about writing a new retirement arc, the first thing I ask myself is "what did people like about the first one?" From the responses in this thread, the reviews, and personal experience, there were four key points people liked. As always, these are just my idle thoughts.
2. The story was morally complex (Part 3 notwithstanding). Having no evil enemies in the first book (while frustrating for a paladin) did a good job of notifying the players that the days of black and white morality were over. Throughout the rest of the plot, the PCs are protecting one evil from another, and the ending may make you question which one is actually the lesser evil. The stories which stick with people the longest are the ones which make them think. A new retirement arc would need to force players to question their characters' motivations and morals.
3. The story felt like a part of a larger whole. The amount of callbacks and references to other scenarios was staggering. I've played almost all of Seasons 0 and 1, but I probably missed some, which is a little frustrating for players jumping in later, but makes the veteran players feel like their actions actually matter. A new retirement arc needs to celebrate the PCs' accomplishments, and be, in-part, driven by their past successes.
4. Despite being about the Society, Eyes still took PCs all across Golarion, and even to another planet. This epic scope went a long way towards making the arc feel like a celebration of the PCs' accomplishments, rather than just another high-level mission. A new retirement arc needs to have an epic scope, without losing a tight focus on the Society and their troubles.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I don't quite follow. Are you saying that it cannot be considered canon in future scenarios due to possible spoilers? Because that happens quite often already.There are specific NPCs who essentially disappear from the campaign in order to maintain secrecy about the events of EotT and, while literal years have passed since those events, there are several outstanding questions that have a great deal of importance to the Society as a whole. While it did address a big part of the Shadow Lodge story arc, I would say that the ramifications of EotT simply aren't apparent outside a pile of proteges and characters who have some new titles. The end result is that the story of EotT simply doesn't matter to the campaign.
In my mind, that's a problem and the only way to address is adequately is to remove the secrecy associated with it so we can explore those stories.
I think the problem lies in the fact that I think they wrote themselves in a corner with this story arc. I'm not sure if the story was planned from the get-go or that it was a spur of the moment thing, but due to the very nature of the story, you can't do any followups about it. I'd love to see an arc/scenario where you explore the fallout of Eyes, but that essentially spoils the entire arc for players who haven't played Eyes yet. And part of the charm is finding out about the b%%~@&* plot for the first time. A followup to Eyes would mean all the people who haven't played Eyes essentially can't play that scenario, which is bad for business.
Compare that to, say, the Season 7 story arc. I have several issues with it, but at least they did the storytelling right. Sort of. A lot of scenarios rely on the knowledge of what happened during Siege of Serpents, and while it is a fairly spoiler-ish bit of knowledge, Siege of Serpents doesn't pivot around it, thus making it easy to reference or summarise in other scenarios. For in-game effects, it doesn't really matter if you know the story of Eyes before you've played it, but it does diminish its narrative power tremendously. I'd love to see certain NPCs return, but apart from a certain red-headed individual, I think most of them are unavailable. Maybe even the redhead. Basically, in the fallout of Eyes, all the NPCs involved aren't available anymore for regular duty. It's not necessarily secrecy, it's just a narrative necessity.I'd love a followup on that storyline in a new scenario, but for newer players who haven't played those scenarios, it'll just be meaningless and confusing. A friend likes to use the term "unknown unknowns": if you're going to reference something, make it so that people who have no knowledge of the referred aren't confronted with what they don't know. Compare it to School of Spirits or Darkest Abduction, for instance. Both feature "returns" of some kind. SoS has an NPC, and DA has a map that's used in their previous adventures. But the story doesn't focus on it, it just treats it as a fact that players may or may not know. J. doesn't exclaim "thanks for saving me six years ago! You're my heroes!" No, she stays aloof or shows respect, but doesn't rub it in. Any followup to Eyes will have to deal with what happened during Eyes and you can't not spoil it or the meaning will get lost.
I'll be playing the new arc soon and I hope the devs have realised this as well. It's not a big issue if they haven't, but I think it'd be cool if these pivotal moments in the Society's history get a little more attention.
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In much the same way Aram Zey's death was not kept secret?
I haven't had the opportunity to play terribly much of S7, but my interpretation is yes. The events of Captive in Crystal are a great example of addressing the critical issue of Aram Zey's murder.
1. What the heck happened to the monkey?
2. Assuming nothing good in #1, who "disappeared" from canon or otherwise ascended? Has that not been resolved?
3. What's up with Osprey and Eliza? The latter is rather interesting now that several people have brought her up in the "Badmouthing our bosses" thread.
4. From a continuity perspective, what was the campaign result of the final encounter in part 4? i.e. was the target protected?
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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In much the same way Aram Zey's death was not kept secret?I haven't had the opportunity to play terribly much of S7, but my interpretation is yes. The events of Captive in Crystal are a great example of addressing the critical issue of Aram Zey's murder.
** spoiler omitted **
2. I'm not sure what you're asking.
3. Osprey still roams around, and I think Eliza stepped in to perform Decemvirate duties, maybe even became one.
4. There wasn't a system yet where people could report on in-game actions. The preferred (and maybe canon?) option is that Shemis survived, but I don't know that for sure.
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** spoiler omitted **In much the same way Aram Zey's death was not kept secret?I haven't had the opportunity to play terribly much of S7, but my interpretation is yes. The events of Captive in Crystal are a great example of addressing the critical issue of Aram Zey's murder.
** spoiler omitted **
2. Why aren't we calling them the (some integer between 5 and 7)? How was that problem resolved?
3. And they appear in few or no scenarios because of Eyes.
4. Reporting shouldn't be necessary to determine the canon events, especially with 5 years worth of content having occurred since the release of the final scenario.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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1. Ah, I knew the name sounded familiar. Can't remember her importance, though. She's one of the NPCs you were supposed to rescue, right?
2. First of all, it was all supposed to be a secret. Only the party playing Eyes and certain NPCs know of what happened to the Ten. Suddenly calling them the Septate only draws more attention to it. It's resolved by appointing new people to the job. I think Eliza is one of them, and some others.
4. The whole idea is that your actions shape the future of the Society, and the campaign coordinators write around that. That's why you get certain "sequels," or how certain events get referenced in later adventures. There's a choice you make in Beacon Below that determined who gave the mission briefing in Ancients' Anguish, for example. As far as I know, there haven't been mind-shattering consequences yet, but I see they're trying to make it an organic thing. I'm sure the campaign coordinators have a "canon" ending, but in theory what the players did should overwrite that (if it had been possible to report).
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** spoiler omitted **
1. I don't remember much about that scenario other than it making me dislike Osprey.
3. Haven't done Abducted and I don't recall actually interacting with Osprey other than his name in a book for Siege.1. She's slowly being turned into a monkey and is in the room with the lich.
2. That's exactly the point: who filled the slots? What's going on there?
4. Yes, and that's why I want to retire EotT and build out the surrounding stories.
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I think the problem lies in the fact that I think they wrote themselves in a corner with this story arc. I'm not sure if the story was planned from the get-go or that it was a spur of the moment thing, but due to the very nature of the story, you can't do any followups about it. I'd love to see an arc/scenario where you explore the fallout of Eyes, but that essentially spoils the entire arc for players who haven't played Eyes yet. And part of the charm is finding out about the b@$%+&~ plot for the first time. A followup to Eyes would mean all the people who haven't played Eyes essentially can't play that scenario, which is bad for business.
Compare that to, say, the Season 7 story arc. I have several issues with it, but at least they did the storytelling right. Sort of. A lot of scenarios rely on the knowledge of what happened during Siege of Serpents, and while it is a fairly spoiler-ish bit of knowledge, Siege of Serpents doesn't pivot around it, thus making it easy to reference or summarise in other scenarios. For in-game effects, it doesn't really matter if you know the...
I don't know about not being able to do followups. When I ran it the biggest complaint my table had was that the leader of the plot wasn't necessarily gifted enough in the brains department. Maybe make a 13-15 story arc where you find out the they were put up to the plot by the Aspis, or since season 8 is about the planes, some outer planar threat.
If it were done well, I can easily see several different arcs that could be built from the various threads left unresolved....perhaps multiple 13-15 post retirement arcs
1) How can you free the medusa?
2) Whatever happened to our favorite undead gorilla cleric?
3) How can we safe our half-monkey cursed female?
4) Who really was the master mind of the Plot, poor ole Adril just doesn't seem smart enough to pull this off?
5) How to help the raven spirit become free?
6) How were the ranks of the ten replaced?
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1. It was the entire reason you were on the mission.
3. Yes, that was what I was referring to. It's not much, but I hope it reflects plans to have them return in the future.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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2. The very nature of the Decemvirate makes it pretty hard to talk about them, as they're supposed to be secret. Telling you "this guy is now a member of the Decemvirate" kinda defeats the purpose of having a secret organisation.
4. It has its problems, but I see no reason why that's grounds for retirement. Maybe they can rework it, but in essence it's a fine series. Maybe even the best of its time.
As for secret members of the Decemvirate, a friend of mine is fond of saying "statistically, it's likely that one member is simply two Gnomes in an overcoat, standing on top of each other." And that's exactly the point: they could be anyone. I still suspect Drendle Dreng of being involved somehow, and that his "I'm an old senile man" is simply an act. Over the years you see flashes of insight in him, especially School of Spirits. I don't trust that guy.
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I literally just finished playing it and, while it had interesting character development options, it is incredibly dated and its continued legality has reduced options to tell very important stories. I would very much like to see it retired at the end of Season 8 so we could explore those stories in Season 9.
I wonder how you would feel on this issue if it retired and you hadn't played it yet.
That very reason is the reason I support keeping it in play. It's a pretty good reason.
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I find First Steps works just fine by omitting the faction-specific parts of the NPC dialogue. I'd love to see the series restored as an option.
Way agreed. It's so sad to see newer PFS players not experience it.
I am hoping to run a character through this by the end of the year, so I hope it's not retired.
Speaking of which, exactly how many XP do you have to have to start the scenario, if you don't mind me hitting a tangent here?
Thanks, you two. That's what I thought. Wanted to confirm!
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Ihave heard the same rumors from online players,even some players locally. But I myself don't believe they would retire it, due to so little amount of seeker content as is.
Being a fairly new player, I don't have a correct leveled character to tackle the 4 part series. And I wish to do so with a special race boon character. If I can't in time, I would still love to gm it once.