Heyaaaa...
So if I have a character who can replace a listed skill on a check with another skill (varril, stealthy Ekkie and the like) does it change what type of check it is?
Eg if varril uses his fancy power on a strength check to enable him to use his divine skill, does it change that strength check to a divine check? I'm asking mainly for the sake of playing blessings on that check
It's a strength check (because nothing changes that) with the divine trait, as well as whatever skill his divine skill is based on (because the skills you use are added as traits to the check). So both of the sorts of blessings you might expect to work will work.
This is actually controversial and not clear.
I think Irgy is right, based on this post from Vic about WotR Kyra, who is similar. When Varrill uses his Divine skill(Wisdom+3) instead of his Strength skill for a Strength check, it is a Divine, Wisdom, Strength check.
I believe that Irgy and elcoderdude are correct here based on the linked post by Vic. The type of check is not changing, just what skill is being used on it.
Thanks, guys!
But...
WotR Kyra does not say Instead. She is not doing any kind of replacing, she is just using a specific skill/roll to defeat the bane (be that bane defeated via combat or dex or whatever).
We have always played that if a power let you use X skill instead of Y, then you were only making an X check.
I mean, hey, Arcane Robes are strong enough. :)
I'm really not seeing the distinction.
WotR Kyra is making a Dexterity check to defeat a demon.
Her power says she can use her Divine skill for this.
Vic says this is still a Dexterity check.
Why is it a Dexterity check? Not because she is using her Dexterity skill. But because the check to defeat is Dexterity.
Varrill is making a Dexterity check to defeat a Satyr.
His power says he can use his Divine skill instead of his Dexterity skill.
You're saying this is not a Dexterity check.
Why is it not a Dexterity check? The check to defeat is still Dexterity.
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This thread seems to agree with the idea that if you use X skill instead of Y, it is still a Y check
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tr1d?Rules-Question-about-Varril-from-the
I have been playing under the impression that if encounter a monster that lists combat, I don't use a weapon, and I use Varril's power, I am now making a noncombat divine check INSTEAD of a combat check (thus enabling blessing of Shelyn to add 2 dice). Am I incorrect here?
You are incorrect, it is still a Combat check (that particular instance DOES have official clarification from Vic here). The type of check doesn't change, just what skill you are using for it. Also ignore all of my posts on that thread, most of them are wrong ;)
I think iceman is correct. The difference between Varrill and WotR Kyra is that Kyra doesn't say "instead of". She gets to use her Divine skill as the skill to defeat the bane. Varrill uses Divine instead of the listed skill. Since it is "instead of" it is no longer the listed skill.
When Varrill uses it on a check that isn't combat, the listed skill is the skill in the check to defeat box. For example, if he uses his power against a Satyr, he's using Divine instead of Dexterity. That means it is a Divine check and no longer a Dexterity check.
When Varrill uses his power on a combat check, the listed skill is strength or melee (or whatever skill a card he played to determine the skill set). So, if he uses the skill when not playing a card to determine the skill, he uses Divine instead of Strength (for example). Thus, he is making a Combat Divine check but not a Combat Strength check. (See the post by Vic skizzerz linked above.)
When Kyra uses her power, she is basically determining the skill skill for the check as being her Divine skill. If she is making a Dexterity check to defeat a Demon and uses her power, she basically acts as if her card said "Dexterity: Divine + 0". Thus, she is making a Divine Dexterity Check.
That is how I understand it at least.
Hmm.
You're saying Varril using Divine instead of Dexterity changes the check's target itself -- Satyr's check to defeat is now Divine 9 instead of Dexterity 9.
Could be. Another way to look at it is the check remains Dexterity 9, but Varril is using a different skill.
The change is what Varril is using, not in the check to defeat. This is why the power refers to "your Divine skill".
Varril's power is:
When you attempt a check, you may Discard (_ or Recharge) a card to use your Divine skill instead of any listed skill.
It is not
When you attempt a check, you may Discard (_ or Recharge) a card to use Divine as the listed skill.
Again, I would agree with Hawkmoon if Varril's power was
When you attempt a check, you may Discard (_ or Recharge) a card to use Divine instead of any listed skill.
As written, I don't think the power changes the skill of the check.
I'm with Hawkmoon. I look at it like Varril's power effectively adds Divine to the list of check options on the card. So if a card lists the checks to acquire/defeat as Dexterity/Acrobatics/Constitution/Fortitude, etc., Varril's power says he can use Divine instead of any of those. Thus, he isn't actually attempting the check listed on the card.
There really isn't any difference between Varril or WotR Kyra. The "instead of" in Varril's power is to make the sentence work grammatically; in Kyra's the "instead of" is instead implied by the rulebook so doesn't need to be directly stated.
Some cards may allow you to replace the required skill for a check with a different one. As part of this action, you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that defines the skill you are going to use.
When you use WotR Kyra's power, or you play a Weapon or a Spell on a check that defines what skill you're using, you are replacing the original skill with the one defined by that card or power. Just like Varril is replacing the original skill with Divine. It isn't a wonky new power that breaks the mold -- it's the exact same thing we've been doing ever since Rise of the Runelords when we play things to determine what skill we're using.
Keep in mind that Varril says that you "use your Divine skill instead of any listed skill." e.g. that it's a power that defines which skill you're using (just like Kyra, or a weapon or spell).
Compare Varrill to the Mattock or Arcane Robes. In both those cases, I treat it as the check no longer is the listed one and is instead the one defined by the card I played. In fact, the word instead basically has to mean it is no longer the thing it would have been.
Kyra is really the weird strange one. That kind of power that, that determines the skill for a check without replacing it, is something we'd not seen prior to Kyra other than on combat defining cards.
We have a fundamental disagreement. I think we need an official voice to decide this.
The disagreement is: do these powers and cards change the skill the character is using, or do they change the definition of the check itself?
I'm with Hawk... Because no one can beat the non human AI of this game
Seriously I'm with Hawk because the basic is read what the card exactly says and any word counts (like the word never or the word skill vs dice...). So until Faqed or proven guilty by Mike or Vic, I would IMHO follow that "instead" is a "strong" word like "never" is for example. If it says "instead" then forget everything that was written. If it does not, then you add something new to whatever was written.
Now that would be the case in a standard translation in French. In original native old Elvish, you tell me... :-)
Frencois, if every word counts, why does Varril's power say "your"? It doesn't make sense to replace the definition of the check with Varril's skill.
Maybe because a skill (as the opposite of a check) is always link to a specific character. As a skill, usually Divine is define by another basic skill (wisdom+X, charisma+X), so you have to name who you are talking about to define precisely the skill.
Hence you must say whose skill you are talking about, even if no swapping of skills is involved.
No impact on the instead issue IMHO.
Compare Varrill to the Mattock or Arcane Robes. In both those cases, I treat it as the check no longer is the listed one and is instead the one defined by the card I played. In fact, the word instead basically has to mean it is no longer the thing it would have been.
Kyra is really the weird strange one. That kind of power that, that determines the skill for a check without replacing it, is something we'd not seen prior to Kyra other than on combat defining cards.
I looked at Mattock and Arcane Robes, and yes, they work the same as Varril. They also work the same as WotR Kyra, Weapons, and Attack spells. They all are powers that determine which skill you use on a check (hence the wording "use your X skill"). Per the rulebook quote above, the power that determines which skill you're using replaces whatever skill was originally listed in all cases (even if the power never explicitly says that on the card), and per Vic's post even though you replaced what skill you're using the type of check remains the same.
For Varril to change the type of check itself, I would imagine the power would need to look like "When you would attempt any check, you may discard (☐ or recharge) a card to instead attempt a Divine check with the same difficulty as that check."
Maybe because a skill (as the opposite of a check) is always link to a specific character. As a skill, usually Divine is define by another basic skill (wisdom+X, charisma+X), so you have to name who you are talking about to define precisely the skill.
Hence you must say whose skill you are talking about, even if no swapping of skills is involved.
No impact on the instead issue IMHO.
?
"Divine" defines the skill. It doesn't matter what it's based on.
"Divine" defines the skill. It doesn't matter what it's based on.
Yes...but...
But if I'm am not the one attempting a Divine check, and I have a blessing that adds 2 dice to a Wisdom check. Whether it will add one or two dice depends on who attemps the check, because if that other character has Divine=Wisdom+X or Divine=Charisma+X (for example) it will change everything.
So saying that Varril replaces the skill by HIS Divine (and not anyone's Divine) is actually needed to has the blessing work. It's a stretch, but let's say the party has many blessing doubling dice in Charisma and someone else than Varril has Divine=Charisma+3.
If Varril's power was spelled "a card to use A Divine skill instead of any listed skill", then you could say it could use someone else's skill (and benefits from those blessings).
I know I'm cutting hairs but this is where I see the difference with a check:
"Divine" fully defines a check
"Divine" doesn't totally define a skill unless you say whose skill you are talking about
I'm not 100% confident in what I'm saying, but not more in what you are...
I think Frencois secretly agrees with skizzerz and me...
Some cards may allow you to replace the required skill for a check with a different one. As part of this action, you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that defines the skill you are going to use.
My copy of the downloaded WotR Rulebook says something different.
Some cards allow you to use a particular skill for a specific type of check, or to use one skill instead of another. (These cards generally say things like “For your combat check, use your Strength or Melee skill,” or “Use your Strength skill instead of your Diplomacy skill.”) You may play only 1 such card or use only 1 such power to determine which skill you’re using.
What you've quoted is actually what it says in S&S. I imagine the change was to clarify WotR Kyra and also Combat checks, which both don't actually replace a skill.
I think that difference is the thing I'm getting at. There are two ways to play cards to determine which skill you're using. You can use a card that lets you use a particular skill for a specific type of check, or you can use a card that lets you uses one skill instead of another.
WotR Kyra and CD Varril are the difference between those two things.
Use a particular skill for a specific type of check
"For your combat check..." cards.
WotR Kyra
Use one skill instead of another
Mattock
Arcane Robes
CD Varril
What I quoted was from the physical rulebook, I didn't realize they stealth edited that section in the pdf version without posting a related FAQ or some sort of errata document highlighting the change.
The crux of the issue is that, to me, it is never defined if the type of check is fixed or not. In my opinion, it is; the skills you are using and any skills referenced by that skill are added as traits to the check, but that is silent about whether or not the original skill listed on the card is still the check type. With the rules currently as written (even in their updated form), it is always either one way or the other way. Nothing about any of those powers makes a difference in that regard. For WotR Kyra, she's using her Divine skill (and therefore her Wisdom skill) on a Dexterity check, and according to Vic's post that is still a Dexterity check. There is nothing in the rulebook that indicates we add the Dexterity trait to that check, so the only possible conclusion from that post (assuming it is correct) is that the check type never changes. Varril similarly uses his Divine skill on some other type of check (let's call it a Dexterity check too for sake of example). He does not use his Dexterity skill on the check, but then again neither does Kyra. Given the exact same setup (both are using their Divine skill, neither are using their Dexterity skill, and the check is originally a Dexterity check), I cannot see how Varril works one way and Kyra works the other. Either both checks are still Dexterity checks or neither check is a Dexterity check. The "instead" replaces the skill used, both the power as well as the rulebook remain completely silent about what "type" a check is beyond the skill used.
If Vic's post about WotR Kyra didn't exist, I'd be agreeing with you (I'd also be saying that Kyra using her Divine skill on a Dexterity check makes it no longer a Dexterity check), due to lack of any rules that say the original skill (the one that isn't being used) is added as a trait to the check. However, that post does exist, and therefore implies that the original skill is still part of a check even if you aren't using it. A power played during the "Determine Which Skill You're Using" step does nothing to change the original thing you picked, in my opinion a brand new check would be needed for that. I cannot see a way for both options to coexist solely within "Determine Which Skill You're Using" powers.
If I can throw another skill replacement card into the ring for discussion, don't forget about Eidolomancer Balazar, with "While you are displaying a cohort that has the Eidolon trait, you may use your Strength skill instead of your Constitution or Fortitude skill on your checks". Which of course demands the followup question: when he uses the above power, can he also use the followup power: "When a character plays a blessing on your Strength check, you may add 1d12 instead
of the normal die."
Looking at specific examples really helps me.
For your check to defeat a bane that has the Demon or Undead trait, you may recharge a spell (□ or blessing) to use your Divine skill + 1d8 and add the Attack, Divine, and Magic traits.
When you attempt any check, you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to use your Divine skill instead of the any listed skill.
First, let's take them both and pretend they are making a Combat check to defeat a bane that has the Demon trait.
For your Combat check to defeat a bane that has the Demon or Undead trait, you may recharge a spell (□ or blessing) to use your Divine skill + 1d8 and add the Attack, Divine, and Magic traits.
That reads just like the typical combat determining weapon or spell card. It is pretty straight forward. It doesn't stop being a Combat check and it never was Strength or Melee or anything else. Just like a skill determining weapon, this is covered by "using a particular skill for a specific type of check."
When you attemptanya Combat check, you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to use your Divine skill instead of the any listed skill.
That is covered by the FAQ Vic suggested. Varril is replacing whatever skill he would have other wise been using for Combat. Let's pretend he didn't play a weapon or spell, so it would have been Strength (or maybe Melee, his choice). But it is no longer Strength and is now Divine instead.
Let's take both of them and pretend they are making an Acrobatics check to defeat a barrier with the Demon trait. So, we'll add in Acrobatics.
For your Acrobatics check to defeat a bane that has the Demon or Undead trait, you may recharge a spell (□ or blessing) to use your Divine skill + 1d8 and add the Attack, Divine, and Magic traits.
This is covered still covered as "using a particular skill for a specific type of check" in the rulebook. There is no replacing going on. For this Acrobatics check to defeat a bane with the Demon trait, Kyra is going to use her Divine skill + 1d8. Just like a Combat check remains a combat check, this remains an Acrobatics check. And just like a Combat check with Longsword becomes a Strength (or Melee) check based on your skill, this becomes a Divine check based on the skill.
When you attemptanyan Acrobatics check, you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to use your Divine skill instead of the any listed skill.
This is covered as using one skill instead of another. Because it is "instead of" it is no longer an Acrobatics check and is now a Divine check.
That is why I see it the way I do. WotR Kyra is really unique. She gets to do something that you typically only see done with Combat checks. But the difference between her and a weapon is that she gets to do it because the specific type of check is "against a bane with the Demon trait" instead of the specific type "combat".
If I can throw another skill replacement card into the ring for discussion, don't forget about Eidolomancer Balazar, with "While you are displaying a cohort that has the Eidolon trait, you may use your Strength skill instead of your Constitution or Fortitude skill on your checks". Which of course demands the followup question: when he uses the above power, can he also use the followup power: "When a character plays a blessing on your Strength check, you may add 1d12 instead
of the normal die."
This is a "Use one skill instead of another" situation. It is no longer Constitution or Fortitude and is now a Strength check, in ever sense of what being a Strength check means. So yeah, the second power applies and he can get d12s.
This is covered as using one skill instead of another. Because it is "instead of" it is no longer an Acrobatics check and is now a Divine check.
This is where we disagree, and at this point I don't think it's possible to convince one way or the other given the complete lack of rules about it. I see Varril and the similar powers as replacing the skill used on the check, and not the check itself, because the power tells me that I replace the skill used. There is no definition of what "type" a check is beyond the skill used, except that such a thing is implied due to Vic's post about WotR Kyra. Either I don't use a skill and it isn't a trait on the check, or I don't use a skill but because it was the check I chose it's still a trait on the check -- these powers do not impact that in any way, shape, or form in my opinion. For me, the reason Varril says "instead of" and WotR Kyra does not is because it is needed to make the power make sense grammatically; Varril saying "When you attempt any check, you may discard a card to use your Divine skill." just sounds like a sentence fragment rather than a complete sentence, and for someone who isn't intimately familiar with the rulebook they may misread it and try to double up on dice (e.g. if it's a Dexterity check they may roll both their Dexterity dice as well as their Divine dice). The "instead of" wording clears both of those things up -- the sentence now flows much better and there is no confusion for someone who hasn't completely memorized the rulebook.
(And @First World Bard, in the way I interpret things, yes you still get to use the other power. The check type wouldn't change so it's still a Constitution or Fortitude check, but it's now also a Strength check since you're using your Strength skill and any skills you use are added as traits to the check)
Hmmm... I think I can understand what you are saying. An Acrobatics type check calls for the use of the Acrobatics skill. If you don't use your Acrobatics skill, that doesn't mean it isn't an Acrobatics type.
I can only say my gut tells me it works the way I think it works. I feel like the Mattock is really saying "Recharge this card to attempt a Strength or Melee instead of the normal check to defeat a barrier with the Lock or Obstacle trait."
And Varril would sort of be "When you attempt any check, you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to attempt a Divine check instead of the listed check." Of course, that would cause problems for a Combat check that you played a Weapon to determine the skill and even Combat checks where you didn't, so it would need to be more than that.
Hmmm....
Okay, so in my Balazar case where I'm using Str for a Con/Fort check, there is disagreement on getting two dice from a Blessing of Sarenrae, but agreement on getting two dice from a blessing of Torog. I guess I should hold onto those in the future, then. :)
I deleted a big long post I made because I understand what Skizzerz is saying better now. I still don't agree, but what I had said was largely because I didn't fully understand the argument he was making.
Hmmm... I think I can understand what you are saying. An Acrobatics type check calls for the use of the Acrobatics skill. If you don't use your Acrobatics skill, that doesn't mean it isn't an Acrobatics type.
I can only say my gut tells me it works the way I think it works. I feel like the Mattock is really saying "Recharge this card to attempt a Strength or Melee instead of the normal check to defeat a barrier with the Lock or Obstacle trait."
And Varril would sort of be "When you attempt any check, you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to attempt a Divine check instead of the listed check." Of course, that would cause problems for a Combat check that you played a Weapon to determine the skill and even Combat checks where you didn't, so it would need to be more than that.
Hmmm....
I understand what you're saying too, except I can't find a way to make that make sense in light of the WotR Kyra post. Really, by the rules as written, I think you're correct. But the rules as written would mean Vic's post about WotR Kyra is wrong, and I assume that Vic posted that after consulting with Mike and co, so it reflects their intent of the power even if the rules as written don't necessarily support that intent (e.g. there is no indication that Dexterity is added as a trait on the check if Kyra isn't using her Dexterity skill at all). Combat is called out specifically in the rulebook to highlight it is still a combat check regardless of what skill you end up using, but non-combat checks are not called out in that manner, and there is no indication in the rulebook that combat is or is not a special case in that regard.
Given the "cards don't do what they don't say" rule, I personally treat the rulebook in the same regard, so the fact that combat is called out specifically means to me that combat is an exception to the general rule, and non-combat checks don't get extra traits based on what skill was originally chosen if that skill is no longer being used (because the rulebook doesn't say that they do). However, that reading contradicts Vic's post in the WotR Kyra thread, so I have since revised my stance that the original skill chosen matters in all cases even if that skill isn't being used. That leads directly to my above argument, which is that determining which skill you're using has no impact on the overall/original type of check. The power would need to tell you to attempt a different type of check instead.
I've been offline. I thank skizzerz for ably explaining the position I agree with.
It seems it boils down to:
(1) Is the original skill listed for the check added as a trait to the check?
(2) If so, do replacement powers like Varril's and Arcane Robes etc change this trait or not?
I think Vic's post indicates the answer to (1) is Yes, and my reading of the replacement powers is that they change the skill the character is using, not the definition of the check.
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Can we get official clarification on the OP's original question?
To whit: If Varril uses his power to use his Divine skill instead of Strength on a Strength check (for example), is it still a Strength check (for the purposes of blessings, etc)?
This is a fundamental question about Varril's power, and the community has deadlocked.
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As I'm beginning a Varril run through SotR, I guess this as good a time as any to attempt some threadcromancy.
(bump)
Not sure the weekend threadcromancy was seen.
Vic? Mike? Can we please have a ruling?
This answer is central to playing this character.
Heyaaaa...
So if I have a character who can replace a listed skill on a check with another skill (varril, stealthy Ekkie and the like) does it change what type of check it is?
Eg if varril uses his fancy power on a strength check to enable him to use his divine skill, does it change that strength check to a divine check? I'm asking mainly for the sake of playing blessings on that check
Yes, it changes what type of check it is. Varril isn't using his fancy power on a STRENGTH check, as the type of check is never determined until a specific skill is applied (only exception I can think of is combat vs. non-combat checks are predetermined).
We're asking for an official answer.
The community has debated the question extensively, and opposite positions both have merit.
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Seconding this request.
I'm certain Varril is being played both ways at this point, and which way you play him depends on the judgment of your group. I'd really like to see a ruling.
If I can offer a suggestion...
There seems to be two options:
A: All of the different cards and wordings all work the same way, which is:
1. Choose which of the listed skills you are either using or replacing for the check. That choice determines the (base) difficulty of the check. That skill is added as a trait and never removed because that's the overall approach that you're using to resolve the situation that the card represents.
2. Use at most one power which determines which skill you are actually using for the check. That power (or the act of choosing the default approach by not activating such a power) determines the specific technique you are using. That skill, and any skills which it in turn depends on, are added to the check
3+. (the rest of the steps of the check as normal)
B: Some cards work that way, and some cards different ways, and the difference between the two is a subtle property of the specific wording used, which people are probably going to have to look up in the FAQ to make sure it hasn't changed. The benefit of which is some kind of allegedly important flavour distinction?
As a player, I can only go with reading the words, guessing the intent, and deciding for myself how to play it. But if I was someone with the power to simply declare which way things are, I sure know which of the two I would choose.
Excuse me, but I don't understand why this situation is so complicated and why we have to wait a year to get an answer that is already in the manual. Lets see...
When you attempt any check, you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to use your Divine skill instead of any listed skill
Ok, so Varril can use his power when he attempts a check. Here is "Attempting a check" chapter from MM rulebook:
Attempting a check requires several actions that are explained below. Each player may not play more than 1 card of each type or use any 1 power more than once during each check, other than powers that can be used each time something particular happens.
Determine Which Skill You’re Using.
Cards that require a check specify the skill or skills you can use to attempt the check. Each check to defeat or acquire a card lists one or more skills; you may choose any of the listed skills for your check. For example, if a check lists Dexterity, Disable, Strength, and Melee, you may use any one of those skills to attempt your check. Even if your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check, but your die is a d4.
Some cards allow you to use a particular skill for a specific type of check, or to use one skill instead of another. (These cards generally say things like “For your combat check, use your Strength or Melee skill,” or “Use your Strength skill instead of your Diplomacy skill.”)You may play only 1 such card or use only 1 such power to determine which skill you’re using.
A few cards that can be used on checks don’t use any of your skills; they instead specify the exact dice you need to roll or the result of your die roll.
So, when attempting a check Varril just uses his power in "Determine Which Skill You’re Using" step and his check is now Wisdom, Divine check instead of any listed check.So, it's not Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Knowledge, Fortitude or any other check. Furthermore, if Varril uses this power to acquire weapon with listed Strength in check to acquire I wouldn't even add strength trait to this check. I quote Rulebook once again:
The skill you’re using for the check, and any skill referenced by that skill, are added as traits to the check. For example, if your character has the skill Melee: Strength +2, and you are using your Melee skill, both the Strength and the Melee traits are added to the check. When you’re playing a card to determine the skill you’re using, that card’s traits are also added to the check; for example, revealing the weapon Heavy Pick for your combat check adds the Pick, Melee, Piercing, and Basic traits to the check. (This isn’t the same as giving you a skill; for example, playing the spell Immolate adds the Arcane trait to your check, but it does not give you the Arcane skill.) If a power adds an additional skill or die to a check, that skill or die is not added as a trait to the check. For example, a card that adds your Strength die to your combat check does not add the Strength trait to your check.
So, there is no way we should add a trait to a check if it doesn't fulfill any of above conditions.
I hope game designers just use Occam's razor and go to only conclusion that is simple and consistent with rulebook itself.
That's not an unreasonable approach, and it aligns with the position of what I'll call the "Hawkmoon school" in this thread.
However:
1) You're quoting an edition of the rulebook that wasn't published until after this thread began, for one thing. (Not sure if those passages changed, though.)
2) More importantly: your logic means the listed skill for a check is not added to the check as a trait. When I attempt a check whose difficulty is Wisdom, it is not a Wisdom check, unless I use my Wisdom skill. This is counter-intuitive.
The rules may never state explicitly that the listed skill is automatically added to the check as a trait, but most of us, including (in my understanding) the game designers, have always played that it is.
If in fact it is not, clarification would be helpful. But I think that may have significant repercussions you and I haven't considered.
3) I could say your argument means nothing is ever a combat check. But maybe we could agree Combat is different. That should be explicitly stated, if it isn't already.
4) The most telling point against your argument, though, is Vic's post I refer to in my first post of this thread:
What I'm saying is that [WotR Kyra's] power is doing exactly the same thing that the phrase "for your combat check" does on weapons. It's not changing the type of check, but it is adding the skill you’re using for the check, and any skill referenced by that skill, as traits to the check. The text in the rulebook under "Determine Which Skill You’re Using" applies here.
So if it's a combat check, it's still a combat check—and it now also has the Divine, Wisdom, Attack, and Magic traits.
And if it's a Dexterity check, it's still a Dexterity check—and it now also has the Divine, Wisdom, Attack, and Magic traits.
1) You're quoting an edition of the rulebook that wasn't published until after this thread began, for one thing. (Not sure if those passages changed, though.)
I checked WoTR edition of rulebook I downloaded in May 2015, and here what it says:
Determine Which Skill You’re Using. Cards that require a check specify the skill or skills you can use to attempt the check. Each check to defeat or acquire a card lists one or more skills; you may choose any of the listed skills for your check. For example, if a check lists Dexterity, Disable, Strength, and Melee, you may use any one of those skills to attempt your check. Even if your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check, but your die is a d4.
Some cards allow you to use a particular skill for a specifc type of
check, or to use one skill instead of another. (These cards generally say things like “For your combat check, use your Strength or Melee skill,” or “Use your Strength skill instead of your Diplomacy skill.”) You may play only 1 such card or use only 1 such power to determine which skill you’re using. A few cards that can be used on checks don’t use any of your skills; they instead specify the exact dice you need to roll or the result of your die roll
I believe it's word-by-word exactly the same wording. I don't have rulebooks from previous boxes, but I don't believe there would be any significant changes.
2) More importantly: your logic means the listed skill for a check is not added to the check as a trait. When I attempt a check whose difficulty is Wisdom, it is not a Wisdom check, unless I use my Wisdom skill. This is counter-intuitive. automatically added to the check as a trait, but most of us, including (in my understanding) the game designers, have always played that it is.
Well, intuition is a very subjective thing and I believe many PACG players share your opinion. I just haven't found anywhere in the rulebook that during a check you should add any more traits than the ones you should add according to the second paragraph I quoted in my last post.
For me, for example, adding a trait that is not used is counter-intuitive. Here's an example: Varril encounters trap that requires Acrobatics as check to defeat. He chooses Divine instead. So, he closes his eyes, start chanting prayers and walks blindly into the trap and lets Shelyn to guide his feet to avoid any danger. Any form of physical fitness is omitted, so any items and spells that would boost his Acrobatics skill are useless, as the character has no control over his own body; his deity has.
4) The most telling point against your argument, though, is Vic's post I refer to in my first post of this thread:What I'm saying is that [WotR Kyra's] power is doing exactly the same thing that the phrase "for your combat check" does on weapons. It's not changing the type of check, but it is adding the skill you’re using for the check, and any skill referenced by that skill, as traits to the check. The text in the rulebook under "Determine Which Skill You’re Using" applies here.
So if it's a combat check, it's still a combat check—and it now also has the Divine, Wisdom, Attack, and Magic traits.
And if it's a Dexterity check, it's still a Dexterity check—and it now also has the Divine, Wisdom, Attack, and Magic traits.
I know, and I don't understand why Vic stated such ruling, when rulebook clearly states otherwise. It just added needless confusion. This ruling should be abolished. Or, rulebooks should be overwritten.
When I say counter-intuitive, I am not arguing from theme; I am thinking just about game mechanics. Most people are going to assume that when I attempt an Acrobatics check, Acrobatics is one of the traits of my check.
I think, like an argument from analogy, nearly any position can be defended by an argument from theme. In your example: if there is a blessing that adds 2 dice to an Acrobatics check, why wouldn't it pertain? Couldn't the two deities collude, with both Shelyn and this blessing's deity aiding Varril?
Also, I don't think the rulebook clearly states otherwise. We've already agreed many players have the opposite understanding (about a check's listed skill being a trait of the check).
Last point: there is an additional common way for a check to gain a trait. Some cards explicitly add a trait to a check (the item Amulet of Mighty Fists adds the Magic trait, for example). This isn't listed in the passage you cite, so we know that passage isn't comprehensive.