|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For what its worth I don't believe the intention in allowing retraining was to end up with a system where some classes can retrain and others can't. I can see some have an issue with this so lets come up with something simple to add to the PFS FAQ /clarifications or even
The retraining rules are available to all characters and classes in the campaign. Class features that give a choice between options (such as rogue talents) or a choice between class features (such as the wizards Arcane Bond and Arcane Familiar) may be retrained using the class feature retraining option.
The hybrid classes presented in the Advanced Class Guide have synergy with their parent classes and any class both their hybrids share a synergy with
Unless clarified in a further rules source or update new classes do not have synergy with any other class.
While I agree with the section on the Hybrid Classes, I feel that it unfairly penalizes a lot of classes just because of when they were released.
I'm pretty sure that retraining is allowed, but because of the lack of synergy, those classes will be expensive to rtrain into.
|
While I agree with the section on the Hybrid Classes, I feel that it unfairly penalizes a lot of classes just because of when they were released.
I see your point and I did toy with the idea of suggesting the psychic classes should be synergistic with each other and also going through all the classes that have disguise as a class skill and give them synergy with vigilante. But in the end I wanted to both keep it simple and not second guess which way the developers will go
|
I understand that, but if I catch it, it doesn't fly.Not me, however, that crap won't fly at my table, play something else, here I have a copy of all the pregens for you.You'd need spelunking levels of character audit to even notice it, and even then would only spot them because they were being honest and trying to play by the rules, pay the price for retraining, and wrote it down rather than the undetectable new character sheet, new abilities here i come" method.
I have a big problem with this stance.
Table variation is one thing. GMs using a player's Chronicle Sheets as a battle ground is another.
As a GM, you don't have the authority to rewrite or undo another GM's decision. If you did, that GM would have equal authority to rewrite everything you just did. The result becomes a frustrated player caught in the middle.
Auditing is meant for players and their characters, not their previous GMs.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ultimate Campaign isn't malicious or all that vague, it's just obviously outdated by the arrival of new classes. That's perfectly natural and no reason to point accusing fingers or try sophisticated text analysis. All we need is an update.
A new printing of Ultimate Campaign would be a good place to revise those rules so they're not as tied to a specific list of classes - what with trying to keep text from drifting to other pages and ruining the layout, that's just not a very future-proof strategy. It would be much better to lay down principles for adjudicating retraining - clear rules that determine when two classes have synergy, and what sort of class feature choices can be retrained.
Rather than calling out features per class, say rather that the same rules apply to any class feature where you need to pick something from a list of options (domains, combat style feats, orders, arcana, trick, talent, rage power). Likewise use one general rule for multi-layered choices (changing a combat style entails changing several feats).
However, we don't know when a new printing of Ultimate Campaign will come. In the meantime, I think PFS should lay out rules for new classes. Let's use conservative but reasonable rules based on the old ones, to tide us over until a new printing arrives.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ultimate Campaign isn't malicious or all that vague, it's just obviously outdated by the arrival of new classes. That's perfectly natural and no reason to point accusing fingers or try sophisticated text analysis. All we need is an update.
A new printing of Ultimate Campaign would be a good place to revise those rules so they're not as tied to a specific list of classes - what with trying to keep text from drifting to other pages and ruining the layout, that's just not a very future-proof strategy. It would be much better to lay down principles for adjudicating retraining - clear rules that determine when two classes have synergy, and what sort of class feature choices can be retrained.
Rather than calling out features per class, say rather that the same rules apply to any class feature where you need to pick something from a list of options (domains, combat style feats, orders, arcana, trick, talent, rage power). Likewise use one general rule for multi-layered choices (changing a combat style entails changing several feats).
However, we don't know when a new printing of Ultimate Campaign will come. In the meantime, I think PFS should lay out rules for new classes. Let's use conservative but reasonable rules based on the old ones, to tide us over until a new printing arrives.
A more future-proof strategy is to follow the Stamina rules: every book that releases new content should review any old rules that they'd otherwise be left out of and address those issues. Thus, it would be the onus of Occult Adventures to house the retraining rules for occult classes and Ultimate Intrigue for the vigilante.
|
Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
|
Hopping off Lau's idea: future printings of the retraining rules could give keywords to classes, and indicate which keywords have retrain synergy. Future printings could just give those keywords and they'd automatically slot themselves in. Looking at the retraining rules, there's the following, mostly ordered by combat role):
- Martials (all the full-BAB classes)
- Deity-bound classes (Clerics, Paladins, Inquisitors, possibly Rangers and Oracles)
- Casting stats (most, not all, classes seem to have synergy with other classes with the same casting stat. For instance, Cleric with Druid and Inquisitor, Witch with Alchemist, Oracle with Bard)
- Tricksters (Monk, Rogue, Alchemist, Bard)
- Half-BAB classes
These seem to encapsulate most of the retraining synergies. The only oddities are Summoners not really fitting anywhere, and not all classes falling in every category: Fighters are synergistic with Rogues, Monks (though perhaps not with Unchained) Magi, though a Rogue not necessarily with a Magus (but with Monk), and Barbarian not with Paladin, for instance. Perhaps another category with intended party role: Fighters, Rogues, Monks, and Magi are all definitely people who like to deal damage and stand in melee, so "front row characters" for that category, and "Buffer/Debuffer" for the Summoner, for instance.
There are some hiccups, admittedly, but those could be fixed by tweaking the retraining synergies, or specifically stating them as exceptions. With these rules, Occult classes are pretty easy to slot in:
Kineticist: Trickster, though I do admit this class is so weird I don't see a lot of synergies.
Medium: Casting Stat, Trickster
Mesmerist: Casting Stat, Buffer/Debuffer, Trickster
Occultist: Casting Stat, Trickster
Psychic: Casting Stat, Half-BAB, Trickster
Spiritualist: Casting Stat, (something else, probably)
Also, the "Occult" tag for all of them.
Pretty much all of these are Tricksters, because I feel there's a lot of "gotcha!" moments in each class, and I qualify weird abilities in there as well: Kineticist with its talents, Mesmerist with its stare abilities, and so on.
Like I said, it isn't 100% perfect, but I think it's reasonable.
|
|
I understand that, but if I catch it, it doesn't fly.Not me, however, that crap won't fly at my table, play something else, here I have a copy of all the pregens for you.You'd need spelunking levels of character audit to even notice it, and even then would only spot them because they were being honest and trying to play by the rules, pay the price for retraining, and wrote it down rather than the undetectable new character sheet, new abilities here i come" method.I have a big problem with this stance.
Table variation is one thing. GMs using a player's Chronicle Sheets as a battle ground is another.
As a GM, you don't have the authority to rewrite or undo another GM's decision. If you did, that GM would have equal authority to rewrite everything you just did. The result becomes a frustrated player caught in the middle.
Auditing is meant for players and their characters, not their previous GMs.
I do have the right to audit their characters, and ask them to fix it if its against the rules. If another GM allowed a retrain that is in a grey area I feel I'm within my right to not allow that character to play (the player can play, but must play a legal character).
|
|
Technically you need to own the book in order to use the retraining rules.That's my point. I've run into too many people who use retraining in PFS who haven't paid for a book they will 'only use 6 pages of.'
Trust me the discussion of owning the book/pdf to use it is a completely different discussion, best left to another thread.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do have the right to audit their characters, and ask them to fix it if its against the rules. If another GM allowed a retrain that is in a grey area I feel I'm within my right to not allow that character to play (the player can play, but must play a legal character).I understand that, but if I catch it, it doesn't fly.Not me, however, that crap won't fly at my table, play something else, here I have a copy of all the pregens for you.You'd need spelunking levels of character audit to even notice it, and even then would only spot them because they were being honest and trying to play by the rules, pay the price for retraining, and wrote it down rather than the undetectable new character sheet, new abilities here i come" method.I have a big problem with this stance.
Table variation is one thing. GMs using a player's Chronicle Sheets as a battle ground is another.
As a GM, you don't have the authority to rewrite or undo another GM's decision. If you did, that GM would have equal authority to rewrite everything you just did. The result becomes a frustrated player caught in the middle.
Auditing is meant for players and their characters, not their previous GMs.
This just sounds like a "Not at my table!" argument.
What makes you think you have the right to tell the player of a legal character that they can't sit at your table?
That falls under my definition of "Don't be a jerk".
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do have the right to audit their characters, and ask them to fix it if its against the rules. If another GM allowed a retrain that is in a grey area I feel I'm within my right to not allow that character to play (the player can play, but must play a legal character).I understand that, but if I catch it, it doesn't fly.Not me, however, that crap won't fly at my table, play something else, here I have a copy of all the pregens for you.You'd need spelunking levels of character audit to even notice it, and even then would only spot them because they were being honest and trying to play by the rules, pay the price for retraining, and wrote it down rather than the undetectable new character sheet, new abilities here i come" method.I have a big problem with this stance.
Table variation is one thing. GMs using a player's Chronicle Sheets as a battle ground is another.
As a GM, you don't have the authority to rewrite or undo another GM's decision. If you did, that GM would have equal authority to rewrite everything you just did. The result becomes a frustrated player caught in the middle.
Auditing is meant for players and their characters, not their previous GMs.
This just sounds like a "Not at my table!" argument.
What makes you think you have the right to tell the player of a legal character that they can't sit at your table?
That falls under my definition of "Don't be a jerk".
What makes you think a player of a illegal character has the right to tell the GM that they can sit at your table?
That falls under my definition of "Don't be a jerk".
See it goes both ways.
When I sit down to GM, I am agreeing to enforce the rules of PFS. Currently, I read those rules to not allow retraining that is not specifically called out in Ultimate Campaign. Without a clarification from PFS, under my interpretation of the rules I can't allow an illegally retrained character to play.
I understand you disagree with me. Nothing your have said so far has persuaded me. I think the best thing would be for us to disagree
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Aren't most lists in sourcebooks exclusive? Like the list of familiars for Winter Witches, and that one ring that grants a set of four languages.
I'd like to see an ammedment to the Campaign Clarification Document allowing for the retraining of ACG and Occult characters, but I don't think that the rules as they are now currently allow for it.
|
|
Most is not all. The retraining rules (all 4 pages of them) are very generic it does not list what classes can be retrained merely those that have synergy with each other. In exactly the same way it doesn't even bother to list which archetypes can be retrained. I can understand the reasoning behind class features that are not listed being excluded. But excluding the classes themselves? Since when are new classes not classes?
There is no list classes for which retraining is an option so previous rulings where such lists exist do not have the same circumstances behind them so drawing the same conclusions may be erroneous.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
|
As I see it, the current state of RAW is that there's no synergy unless otherwise stated, but any class can be retrained if you're ready to pay for no-synergy retraining.
For class features, sadly, there's an exhaustive list of features that can be retrained ("Class features you can retrain are as follows"); if you had a feature in one of the mentioned classes that wasn't on the list, you wouldn't be able to retrain it either.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Regardless of how another GM allowed a player to retrain their character, it's a legal character when they sit down at your table.
Unless you're saying that you've seen Fighters retrain into Witch Hexes, or something.
In that case, we're in agreement. The character is illegal.
But if you simply disagree with how another GM ruled on something during a previous session, you should not be able to tell that player they can't play at your table.
It's a legal character.
|
|
If I ruled during one of my sessions that a character could jump 15' in the air, using Acrobatics, and make a melee attack against a flying opponent (something not currently supported by the rules), would you subsequently tell that player three weeks later that they couldn't play at your table?
Is that an "illegal character", by your standard?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Then tell them they can't use retraining.Technically you need to own the book in order to use the retraining rules.That's my point. I've run into too many people who use retraining in PFS who haven't paid for a book they will 'only use 6 pages of.'
Don't think I haven't. "But my local GM/con GM/other store/mommy said I could." Retraining is next to infernal healing in my hierarchy of pet peeves when it comes to the own-the-book rule.
But that is not the point of this thread, I merely meant to say that while I don't have the book and don't use retrain, I don't have a horse in this race. Except as a GM I have to.
To the OP I would gladly sign a petition for the occult classes retraining synergy.
|
|
Regardless of how another GM allowed a player to retrain their character, it's a legal character when they sit down at your table.
Unless you're saying that you've seen Fighters retrain into Witch Hexes, or something.
In that case, we're in agreement. The character is illegal.
But if you simply disagree with how another GM ruled on something during a previous session, you should not be able to tell that player they can't play at your table.
It's a legal character.
As I gm'd a session today, I had a character using a sword that he didn't have the fame to buy. Previous GM's allowed him to buy and use the sword in previous adventures. When I caught that he was using an item that was illegal for him to buy, but another gm allowed him to, should I allow him to use an obviously illegal purchase during the adventure?
I see the above situation to be analogous to the retraining issues. Must I allow the character to use the illegal purchase?
If your answer is no, then I shouldn't allow a character that in my ruling has been illegally trained use the benifirlts of the retraining.
BTW my ruling today that he could use a lesser version of his weapon (removing the keen enchantment) during the rest of the scenario.
|
|
If I ruled during one of my sessions that a character could jump 15' in the air, using Acrobatics, and make a melee attack against a flying opponent (something not currently supported by the rules), would you subsequently tell that player three weeks later that they couldn't play at your table?
Is that an "illegal character", by your standard?
That is a different situation. You are arguing an in game decision versus a downtime decision.
They are not comparable.
|
|
As I gm'd a session today, I had a character using a sword that he didn't have the fame to buy. Previous GM's allowed him to buy and use the sword in previous adventures. When I caught that he was using an item that was illegal for him to buy, but another gm allowed him to, should I allow him to use an obviously illegal purchase during the adventure?
Did he play a bunch of modules, murderhobo his way to level 7, or just put every dime into the sword?
|
|
If I ruled during one of my sessions that a character could jump 15' in the air, using Acrobatics, and make a melee attack against a flying opponent (something not currently supported by the rules), would you subsequently tell that player three weeks later that they couldn't play at your table?
Is that an "illegal character", by your standard?
That is a different situation. You are arguing an in game decision versus a downtime decision.
They are not comparable.
I don't find your analogy comparable.
The character sitting down at your table with the sword was illegal.
A character that retrained a Kinetic Talent into another legal Talent two sessions ago is a legal character now.
|
|
If I ruled during one of my sessions that a character could jump 15' in the air, using Acrobatics, and make a melee attack against a flying opponent (something not currently supported by the rules), would you subsequently tell that player three weeks later that they couldn't play at your table?
Is that an "illegal character", by your standard?
That is a different situation. You are arguing an in game decision versus a downtime decision.
They are not comparable.
I don't find your analogy comparable.
The character sitting down at your table with the sword was illegal.
A character that retrained a Kinetic Talent into another legal Talent two sessions ago is a legal character now.
The bolded statement is an opinion, that is not yet supported one way or another by PFS rulings. My opinion is that the character was illegally retrained and yours is that he was legally retrained.
That is really the gist of it. You have no more standing for your ruling than I have for mine.
|
|
Did he play a bunch of modules, murderhobo his way to level 7, or just put every dime into the sword?
As I gm'd a session today, I had a character using a sword that he didn't have the fame to buy. Previous GM's allowed him to buy and use the sword in previous adventures. When I caught that he was using an item that was illegal for him to buy, but another gm allowed him to, should I allow him to use an obviously illegal purchase during the adventure?
He was 5th level, and put almost every dime into the sword.
|
|
Did the player get tripped up on the 'can't enhance a thing until you have fame for the total enhanced value thing' rule?
Because I've had to watch that myself, and I can't say that it isn't a bit confusing at times....
EDIT:
Back on track.
I'm relatively new to PFS GMing.
If someone wants to retrain AT my table, and they're retraining things from an Occult class, I have a DEFINITE need to know what the costs would be.
I have Ultimate Campaign, but I neither want to screw the player nor give them something they haven't the right to, either.
|
|
Did the player get tripped up on the 'can't enhance a thing until you have fame for the total enhanced value thing' rule?
Because I've had to watch that myself, and I can't say that it isn't a bit confusing at times....
EDIT:
Back on track.
I'm relatively new to PFS GMing.
If someone wants to retrain AT my table, and they're retraining things from an Occult class, I have a DEFINITE need to know what the costs would be.
I have Ultimate Campaign, but I neither want to screw the player nor give them something they haven't the right to, either.
He was using Hero Lab, and since it let him buy it, he thought it was ok.
On the occult retraining, there is a disagreement on whether or not you can even do it, much less the costs.
|
|
If I ruled during one of my sessions that a character could jump 15' in the air, using Acrobatics, and make a melee attack against a flying opponent (something not currently supported by the rules), would you subsequently tell that player three weeks later that they couldn't play at your table?
Is that an "illegal character", by your standard?
That is a different situation. You are arguing an in game decision versus a downtime decision.
They are not comparable.
I don't find your analogy comparable.
The character sitting down at your table with the sword was illegal.
A character that retrained a Kinetic Talent into another legal Talent two sessions ago is a legal character now.
The bolded statement is an opinion, that is not yet supported one way or another by PFS rulings. My opinion is that the character was illegally retrained and yours is that he was legally retrained.
That is really the gist of it. You have no more standing for your ruling than I have for mine.
Then you're not understanding my position.
I guarantee you, 100%, audit in hand, written in blood, by whatever supernatural powers you may believe in, that the character is legal by the time they make it to your table. Break out the magnifying glass and the spell checker if you need to. There is absolutely nothing illegal about that character.
What you have is a disagreement with another GM about how they ran their table. If this player asked you to sign off on another retraining, tell them "No". You have that right and ability as the current table GM. But don't punish the player because you disagreed with someone else's decision at someone else's table.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A character who has purchased a high tier only item when playing low tier is not legal, even if signed off by a GM.
A level 4 character who played a 5-9 scenario is not legal, even when signed off by a GM.
A character who has purchased a cloak of charisma from a season 0 chronicle sheet is not legal, even if signed off by a GM.
A character who has gained 2xp and 1pp from playing The Confirmation is not legal, even if signed off by a GM.
A character with illegal retraining listed on their chronicle sheet is not legal, even if signed off by a GM.
---
Most of these have easy non-disruptive resolutions (all except the lvl 4 in the 5-9)
Revert the illegal change, refunding all costs.
|
|
A character with illegal retraining listed on their chronicle sheet is not legal, even if signed off by a GM.---
Revert the illegal change, refunding all costs.
Please define the retraining, then?
Personally, I'd *love* to not have to worry about it, but I don't want to be that 'one GM' that messes this up because there wasn't a firm ruling on it?
|
|
For class feature retraining it's easy:
"Class features you can retrain are as follows"
Anything on that list is a legal class feature to retrain.
(Note that some entries also call out other retraining options that are significant for the class in question, such as retraining feats for fighters, skill ranks for rogues, or spells known for sorcerers).
Antipaladin: Retrain one cruelty, or retrain your fiendish bond, replacing your bonded weapon for a fiendish servant or vice versa.
Barbarian: Retrain one rage power.
Bard: Retrain one type of Perform skill associated with your versatile performance class feature. See also retraining skill ranks and retraining spells known.
Cavalier: You can change your order; the rules for this are found here. See also retraining feats.
Cleric: Retrain one domain; the new domain must be one granted by your deity. Doing so replaces your list of domain spells and your domain granted powers. If you are a neutral cleric of a neutral deity, you can instead retrain whether you channel positive or negative energy, which also changes whether you spontaneously cast cure spells or inflict spells.
Druid: Retrain your nature's bond, replacing your domain with an animal companion or vice versa. You can instead retrain one domain; the new domain must be available to your class or archetype. Doing so replaces your list of domain spells and your domain granted powers.
Fighter: Retrain one fighter weapon group you chose for your weapon training class feature. See also retraining feats.
Gunslinger: Retrain one firearm type you selected for gun training, or retrain one deed you selected for true grit. See also retraining feats.
Inquisitor: Retrain one domain; the new domain must be one granted by your deity or ethos. Doing so replaces your domain granted powers. See also retraining feats and retraining spells known.
Magus: Retrain one magus arcana.
Monk: See retraining feats.
Ninja: Retrain one ninja trick or master trick.
Oracle: Retrain one revelation. You can instead retrain whether you add all cure spells or all inflict spells to your spell list. See also retraining spells known.
Paladin: Retrain one mercy, or retrain your divine bond, replacing your bonded weapon with a bonded mount or vice versa.
Ranger: Retrain one favored enemy. This takes 5 days for each +2 bonus you have against the favored enemy you are replacing.
You can instead retrain your combat style. This replaces all your current combat style bonus feats. This training takes 5 days for every combat style feat you are replacing.
You can instead retrain one favored terrain. This training takes 5 days for each +2 bonus you have in the favored terrain you are replacing.
You can instead retrain your hunter's bond, replacing your companions bond with an animal companion or vice versa.
See also retraining feats.
Rogue: Retrain one rogue talent or advanced rogue talent.
Samurai: Retrain the weapon you chose for your weapon expertise class ability. You can change your samurai order; the rules for this are on page 18 of Ultimate Combat. See also retraining feats.
Sorcerer: Retrain your bloodline. Doing so replaces your bonus spells, bloodline arcana, bloodline feats, and bloodline powers. This training takes 5 days for every bonus feat, bloodline arcana, and bloodline power you lose from changing bloodlines. See also retraining feats and retraining spells known.
Summoner: Retrain one eidolon evolution. You can instead retrain your eidolon's base form, but if the eidolon has an evolution that requires its original base form, you must first retrain that evolution in exchange for one without that requirement. See also retraining spells known.
Witch: Retrain one hex, major hex, or grand hex.
Wizard: Retrain your arcane bond by replacing one bonded item with another, replacing your bonded item with a familiar, or replacing your familiar with a bonded item. See also retraining feats.
You can instead retrain your arcane school (including changing to or from a universalist). Doing so replaces your school's bonus spell slots and school powers. This training takes 5 days for every school power you lose from changing schools.
It doesn't say "Some of the Class features you can you can retrain are as follows"
Or, "The Class features you can retrain include the following"
Or, "An example of Class features you can you can retrain are as follows"
It says "Class features you can retrain are as follows"
and then includes an exhaustive list.
While it would be nice to be able to retrain other things such as Variant Channeling, or say any occult class features at all, I don't believe the rules support it, and no matter how much I think those things should be true ot doesn't change my reading of Ultimate Campaign.
---
This is also supported (indirectly) by the following statement from the Class Feature retrain section that calls out retraining of specific, non-listed class features, opening them up at the discretion of the GM.(Which in PFS means no unless otherwise noted by campaign staff)
This paragraph would be unnecessary if the retraining list was non-exhaustive.
If an archetype or variant class feature replaces the listed class feature, at the GM's discretion you may retrain that alternative class feature for an equivalent variant class feature. For example, Ultimate Magic presents rules for inquisitions, which inquisitors can select in place of a domain, and the inquisitor entry below allows you to retrain your chosen domain, so you are allowed to instead retrain an inquisition, swapping it for a domain or another inquisition.
--
|
|
A character with illegal retraining listed on their chronicle sheet is not legal, even if signed off by a GM.---
Revert the illegal change, refunding all costs.
Please define the retraining, then?
Personally, I'd *love* to not have to worry about it, but I don't want to be that 'one GM' that messes this up because there wasn't a firm ruling on it?
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. Are you asking what the illegal retraining would be? If so, I think the the majority of the people agree that the issue in this thread is with retraining class features from Occult Adventures. It seems like the most of the people are agreeing that it is not currently possible to retrain a class feature from an occult class. I'm just owtenot could you elaborate? It may be the sleep deprivation, but I guess i'm just not getting what you were trying to ask.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Then tell them they can't use retraining.Don't think I haven't.
Good
I had a character using a sword that he didn't have the fame to buy.
If you confuse "using a sword he doesn't have game to buy" with "retrained in a way you don't believe is possible" for the same issue, that's the problem.
One of the two scenarios involves an illegal character. The other involves a rules disagreement.
|
|
Then tell them they can't use retraining.Don't think I haven't.Good
I had a character using a sword that he didn't have the fame to buy.If you confuse "using a sword he doesn't have game to buy" with "retrained in a way you don't believe is possible" for the same issue, that's the problem.
One of the two scenarios involves an illegal character. The other involves a rules disagreement.
My argument is that both involve what I consider illegal actions by the player in downtime that was signed off on by the gm.
I don't agree with the interpretation that the character that retrains something that is not on the list in ultimate campaign is legal.
In the case of a gm allowing something beyond the rules, I feel as a gm I am obligated to correct that. Others obviously disagree with me in certain situations.
I'm OK with that.