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It's actually one of my favorited links =)
But I don't have the one on gluing together Alchemical items.
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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It's actually one of my favorited links =)
That is a lovely link, Nefreet.
Thanks for sharing that Compton post.
Hmm
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If we get to add any rules we want, can I add that Humans gain a fly speed 250' (perfect) at level 2?
GMs are expected to use good judgement in making rulings. Does allowing humans to gain a fly speed seem appropriate in your own good judgement? I assume not. Does allowing Occult classes to participate in the retraining rules in a similar manner as other classes seem appropriate in your own good judgement? I assume not as well, but in my judgement it is. Thus, I will run it as such, and you will run it as such.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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It does not apply.
This is not a character option missing a key piece of information.
This is a supplement with its own rules.
It has a list of what you can do.
That list has been expanded already to include the ACG classes.
We have yet to see an expansion for the Occult classes or the Vigilante.
~
If we get to add any rules we want, can I add that Humans gain a fly speed 250' (perfect) at level 2?
Careful you don't slip on that slope.
You keep comparing retraining class features - which is allowed for almost every class feature for the classes discussed - to entirely outlandish things. It doesn't make for a very convincing argument.
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If it is not one of the class features specifically allowed to? Yes.
I disagree. A character should not be locked out of a legal option because their class was added after the option was published. The ACG classes are not, and I don't believe the OA classes should be either. Until the campaign staff can give official guidance, I expect my GMs to exercise good judgement when a player with an OA classed character asks them what to do about retraining.
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If it is not one of the class features specifically allowed to? Yes.I disagree. A character should not be locked out of a legal option because their class was added after the option was published. The ACG classes are not, and I don't believe the OA classes should be either. Until the campaign staff can give official guidance, I expect my GMs to exercise good judgement when a player with an OA classed character asks them what to do about retraining.
Whether you belive that should or shouldn't be is not the point. The point is they are. The viewpoint that they are is supported by a blog post being made to include ACG classes.
Retrain a level without synergy if you want to as that is allow by the rules. Any other retraining however is NOT supported by the current rules.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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How the occult classes (and vigilante, for that matter) synergize or do not synergize is a good question and one that I've noted for us to look into and clarify in the near future.
I've seen only a few suggestions of what such a list of synergies would look like—most notably having the occult classes all synergize with one another. I'm amenable to hearing what thoughts folks have regarding how we move forward on this issue; hyperbolic analogies are not terribly conducive to that process.
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Did we ever get a statement about retraining hybrid class features?
I remember seeing the blog about the class synergies, but I do no recall whether anything was ever said about retraining specific new class features.
Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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How the occult classes (and vigilante, for that matter) synergize or do not synergize is a good question and one that I've noted for us to look into and clarify in the near future.
I've seen only a few suggestions of what such a list of synergies would look like—most notably having the occult classes all synergize with one another. I'm amenable to hearing what thoughts folks have regarding how we move forward on this issue; hyperbolic analogies are not terribly conducive to that process.
John,
Thanks for responding to this thread.
Here is what I have and what I have been given for some suggestions on the synergies of the OA classes. As previously mentioned upthread, I feel the OA classes should have synergy with themselves. A suggestion I received from a local player was that the Kineticist and other OA claees that are not casters, should have synergy with the melee classes. The OA classes with some type of casting component, should be synergistic with the standard casters.
The Vigilante, is going to be a tricky one especially when involving the various archetypes as they make them compatible with any class.
Hope this helps.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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How the occult classes (and vigilante, for that matter) synergize or do not synergize is a good question and one that I've noted for us to look into and clarify in the near future.
I've seen only a few suggestions of what such a list of synergies would look like—most notably having the occult classes all synergize with one another. I'm amenable to hearing what thoughts folks have regarding how we move forward on this issue; hyperbolic analogies are not terribly conducive to that process.
John,
Thanks for responding to this thread.
Here is what I have and what I have been given for some suggestions on the synergies of the OA classes. As previously mentioned upthread, I feel the OA classes should have synergy with themselves. A suggestion I received from a local player was that the Kineticist and other OA claees that are not casters, should have synergy with the melee classes. The OA classes with some type of casting component, should be synergistic with the standard casters.
The Vigilante, is going to be a tricky one especially when involving the various archetypes as they make them compatible with any class.
Hope this helps.
The Kineticist really shouldn't have synergy with anything. Mind you I like the class but its the type of thing where I can't really figure out any synergies. As for the others you start running into the same problems with the Vigilante in that in some cases the archetypes run vast. For example the Occultist works really well with Fighter, Brawler, Inquisitor, Cleric, and Im sure even more than even I wrote down.
EDIT:Right I forgot Vigilante gets Occultist mechanics so throw that onto the list.
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Psychic classes fall into two main camps Kineticist, mesmerist and psychic forming one group and medium occultist and spiritualist forming the other
Vigilante is somehow everything and nothing at the same time. The mental discipline of being two people in one does suggest Rogue, Ninja, monk, mesmerist, psychic and spiritualist maybe?
As for class feature I will revise my previous request to enable retraining of any class feature after second level (to take into account those classes such as oracle and witch that class feature retraining does not allow a fundamental shift of almost class defining features taken at first level)
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For vigilante, I was thinking: fighter, rogue, unchained rogue, ranger, slayer, and investigator.
Vigilante might need a few more for the spellcasting archetypes - perhaps whichever class their spell progression or spell list is based on.
As far as Occult classes, outside of themselves:
Kineticist - sorcerer
Medium - shaman, oracle, or witch.
Mesmerist - cries out for bard.
Occultist - arcanist, magus
Psychic - arcanist, sorcerer, oracle
Spiritualist - summoner/unchained summoner
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Can we also get some class feature retraining for the unchained classes?
For example, Unchained monks can't retrain ki powers because they aren't available as a choice in UC. This is due to the core monk getting set powers at certain levels, so there was nothing to be retrained for core monks.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Specifically allowed.
Since it is not specifically allowed, though almost all other classes are specifically allowed, it is creating a house rule.
We don't, as PFS GMs, have the right to make house rules.
~
If we do have the right to make house rules, then why can't I have mine since you want yours so much?
John Compton saying PFS GMs can make house rules, but are not required to.
Where to from Here?: I wouldn't bet on gluing flasks together dealing extra damage in the organized play setting, as you'll likely have at least a handful of different GMs over the character's career who rule in different ways on this strange circumstance. Maybe you don't care about that rules consistency and are happy to say, "[GM], my alchemist has glued five alchemist's fires together, so he pulls it out, lobs it, and hopes for the best. I've had GMs let me deal extra damage, and others have increased the splash radius. I'm not too concerned about the details, so however you want to rule this goes is fine by me." Just recognize that there is no established rule for gluing flasks together, and the GM is not obligated to provide your character any benefit for your efforts.
Were I the GM, I'd probably find a fun way for you to cause a little more pain and more than a little extra collateral damage to reward your gold expenditure—at least the first time or if you used it sparingly. I'm sure there are plenty of others who would be willing to facilitate your mayhem so long as you don't expect immense returns on this particular practice.
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Personally, I think the Vigilante should get synergy with the fighter and the rogue, but that's about it. No other class has archetypes or other limited abilities (like minor/major magic) affect synergies. Take the cleric for example. A cleric can rage and gain rage powers, can inspire courage, can gain bonus feats including fighter only feats, can gain an animal companion at level -3, and it can also cast spells usually limited to arcane casters through domains. Really the only classes from the core rulebook they can't emulate in some way are the rogue and the monk. I would never say that they should synergize with most of the CRB classes though.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I don't think archetypes should affect synergy because it'll create a LOT more work maintaining that down the road as new archetypes for every class get published.
I'm going to work on a detailed proposal for retraining in PFS later today.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Personally, I think the Vigilante should get synergy with the fighter and the rogue, but that's about it. No other class has archetypes or other limited abilities (like minor/major magic) affect synergies. Take the cleric for example. A cleric can rage and gain rage powers, can inspire courage, can gain bonus feats including fighter only feats, can gain an animal companion at level -3, and it can also cast spells usually limited to arcane casters through domains. Really the only classes from the core rulebook they can't emulate in some way are the rogue and the monk. I would never say that they should synergize with most of the CRB classes though.
Emulate is not the same as copy wholesale. Admittedly, the Vigilante as a class doesn't emulate well at all class abilities. In fact the only class the consistently gains the ability to copy other classes is weirdly the Inquisitor. This as a phenomenon also happened more after Ultimate Campaign too so I wouldn't cite that as a source of authority on that either.