I wanted to create an archer who would be fun and effective to play at all levels. I looked at Ranger and Fighter, Zen Archer and Paladin, even Inquisitor, and the final result I managed to come up with was a hodgepodge of classes... two levels of Urban Barbarian gets me the Dex boost and Reckless Abandon, seven levels of Weaponmaster gets me the weapon training and bonus feats I need while those last three levels seem to be best served by sprinkling in a little spell-casting class, Wizard or Sorcerer - those classes open up the use of wands for things like Gravity Bow, Shield or Fox's Cunning as well as provide additional benefits like boosts to Will saves and Arcane Bond or Bloodline abilities. Ideally I'd like to take two levels of Urban Barbarian and then go straight Zen Archer after that, but unfortunately due to ridiculous alignment requirements, that's not an option.
The question becomes what levels to take when, and what options (such as archetypes) that I may not have considered. This is what I'm thinking right now...
1st - Barbarian 1
2nd - Barbarian 2
3rd - Fighter 1
4th - Fighter 2
5th - Fighter 3
6th - Fighter 4
7th - Wizard/Sorcerer 1
8th - Fighter 5
9th - Fighter 6
10th - Fighter 7
11th - ?
12th - ?
I'm not sure whether to go Wizard or Sorcerer and what to do with those last two levels - any thoughts?
Honestly just buy the wands you want to use and given them to casters to use on you. As an archer even one round of buffing past level 4 or so is a lot is potential shots lost and ONE level of caster is a waste.
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How about going 1 level of urban bloodrager. No alignment restriction, gives you the ability to activate a number of useful wands (no gravity bow, but I've always found it overrated), and then multiclass into zen archer? It still gets you your +2 to dex mod, or strength if you prefer, plus level 1 gets you a bloodline power, as opposed to the level 2 for a rage power.
I don't know alot of multi-class ideas to help make an Archer. Most class features require you to stick to one class or else the duration and/or effect with become too weak to be useful.
Urban barbarian's Controlled Rage can useful, but only a handful of rounds per day unless you stick to it.
Divine Caster's can use Tier 1 Divine Favor for a 1-4 attack and damage boost though you only have a few uses before level 5-10. I think this would be better than the Urban Barbarian.
Classes with bonus feats are pretty much necessary if you want to get an Archer setup quickly.
Hmm, if I was using Multi-class to make an Archer I would pick up a Warrior class with bonus feats to start off, and then put some caster levels in. The caster spells would give alot of buffs and options especially useful once you get the key archery feats.
Its not a multi-class but the warpriest could do pretty good in theory.
Primal Hunter, maybe?
From my experience in pathfinder society, there are no really wrong ways to make an archer, but the two most effective that I saw through 12th level are as follows:
1st:
1-6 Zen Archer- You get all the feats for archers, plus fun toys like ki for extra arrows, perfect strike, point blank master at level 3 (no more provoking) and improved precise shot at level 6. You have amazing saves and will have extra feats for fun options.
7-9 Weapon master fighter- This is the most effective damage option, with gloves of dueling you pick up +3 hit/damage and also get even more feats.
10-12 - Whichever you prefer, though sticking with Zen archer for another 2 levels gets you another shot with your flurry and Aoo with your bows for the final level.
This first option is what I would pick if I wanted to be hands down, best archer around, have high saves, AC, and feats to spare.
2nd:
Beastmaster/Infiltrator Ranger 12
You take boon companion at 5th level, and throughout your PFS career you will be an amazing archer with a full powered animal companion. I recommend big cat. You can shoot pheremone arrows giving your AC +2 hit/damage. You don't get Improved Precise Shot early, but take Deadeye Bowman Trait (works as IPS pretty much 90% of the time). Favored Enemy: Human will come into play in most scenarios, giving you scaling +2/+4/+6 to hit and damage. Once you get instant enemy it gets even easier.
The Infiltrator Archetype lets you pick up different buffs as you need them depending on your FE. I recommend Human/Evil Outsider/Undead. You can pick up Iron Will, Darkvision and a host of other options.
This option is slightly behind the Zen Archer in pure archery before Favored Enemy, but the animal companion bridges that gap and than some. I would give this one more combat potential (in damage and battle control) It has worse saves and AC than the Zen Archer though.
Pathfinder society, for the most part, stops at 12. Improved precise shots requires 11 BAB. So for the the entirety of your career your going to have cover problems (+4 to AC).
It's not stylish but one of the best things about Rangers and Zen Archer monks is that they get Improved Precise Shot at level 6. Zen Archer's also get Point Blank Master at 3rd.
I'm not sure about barbarian. It looks like your taking it solely for the dex boosting rage but your going to have...what? 5 + con bonus rounds of rage? Is that enough to get you through a day?
At what level do you want your build to come "online"? 2 Barbarian levels first means that if we pick Human we get point blank and precise shot at first and then nothing until level 3.
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EDIT: Removed Warrior Spirit, as it isn't PFS legal. Added Gloves of Dueling and a Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone to the build.
EDITED AGAIN: I was missing a Fighter Bonus Feat at 3rd level/Fighter Level 1. Moved Weapon Focus (Longbow) there and added Iron Will.
EDITED one last time: Added Freebooter Archetype to Ranger to get more versatility than Favored Enemy grants.
EDITED I lied. Last time this time: Swapped Martial Focus in for Toughness at level 5. It's only an extra +1 to damage, but with as many arrows as you'll be getting eventually, it'll add up.
I haven't played a lot of archers, but I think that you're going to want to stick to full-BAB classes. Dipping Wizard or Sorcerer isn't going to do enough for you to offset the loss of BAB and bonus feats.
If you must dip a class with some spell access, Ranger would be my recommendation. They get Gravity Bow and Cat's Grace. No Shield, but as a ranged character, getting Shield up in combat isn't really a priority.
The Bloodrager suggestion was also a good one, if you're looking to pick up a raging class. It would give you the option of Zen Archer, and Zen Archer is the one 3/4 BAB class I'd make an exception for.
I'm not a fan of dipping two classes, though, for the delay that it puts in Weapon Training and accumulating Fighter levels to qualify for things like Weapon Specialization.
What I like about a Ranger dip is that, taken at the right level, it means you don't lose out on any bonus feats. Archers are very feat heavy, so that's an important thing to consider.
So something like this could work:
Human Freebooter Ranger 2 / Weapon Master Fighter 10
1 Ranger 1) Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2 Ranger 2) Rapid Shot
3 Fighter 1) Weapon Focus (Longbow), Iron Will
4 Fighter 2) Deadly Aim
5 Fighter 3) Weapon Training (Bows), Martial Focus (Bows)
6 Fighter 4) Manyshot
7 Fighter 5) Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
8 Fighter 6) Improved Critical (Longbow)
9 Fighter 7) Clustered Shots, Advanced Weapon Training: Weapon Mastery: Burrowing Shot
10 Fighter 8) Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)
11 Fighter 9) Improved Precise Shot
12 Fighter 10) Critical Focus
The level 3 feat could be a few different things. Iron Will, Toughness, etc.
So you'll have Freebooter's Bane and access to Gravity Bow (through a wand) from level 1. Then you start on Fighter levels, and here's why...
Weapon training at level 5 (Level 3 fighter), when a normal Fighter would have gotten it.
Weapon Specialization at 6 or 7 (I think Manyshot probably works out to more damage, so I put it first).
Advanced Weapon Training at level 9 - Burrowing Shot for a nice debuff to go with your attacks.
Assuming time to activate Gravity Bow before the fight, and activating Freebooter's Bane on round 1, you'll be getting these bonuses on top of your full-BAB and any stat bonuses:
To-hit:
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 Weapon Training
+1 Greater Weapon Focus
+1 Enhancement fron Warrior Spirit
+1 Freebooter's Bane
-2 Rapid Shot
-4 Deadly Aim
+1 Point-Blank Shot (situational)
+2 normal enhancement
+5 (at least) DEX
+2 Gloves of Dueling
+1 Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone
+12 BAB
---
+22 (+24 against favored enemy) Crit on 19-20
Damage:
2D6 base w/ Gravity Bow
+2 Weapon Specialization
+2 Weapon Training
+1 Martial Focus
+1 Freebooter's Bane
+8 Deadly Aim
+1 Point-Blank Shot
+2 Normal Enhancement
+4 (at least) STR
+2 Gloves of Dueling
---
2D6+23
Attack sequence: +22 (Two arrows)/+22/+17/+12
Or without Deadly Aim: +26 (Two arrows)/+26/+21/+16
This makes a potential round 1: Move Action Freebooter's Bane, Swift Action retrieve Wand of Gravity Bow from Spring-loaded Wrist Sheath, Standard Action activate wand, Free Action drop wand and ready bow.
As pointed out above savage technologist is by far the best archer barbarian as it boosts both STR and DEX while not Penalizing AC and also still boosting WIL.
Another very cool trick not mentioned above which works well for Archery Barbarians is the Scent Rage power combined with Pheromone Arrows from Elves of Gollarion.
Another requirement for any PFS archer is the Deadeye Bowman trait which is a rather cheap and handy replacement for improved precise shot.
If you want to combine Monk and Barb a trait (Adopted: Enlightened Warrior) can solve that for you...
Some really fantastic advice here, including a number of new options I had not been aware of... I'm going to look into them and post a sample build here. Thanks to all who replied.
How about Warpriest (Arsenal Chaplain)? They get to swift action any personal spells (such as Divine Favor). Add the Fate's Favored Trait and Divine Favor gives you an additional +1 to hit and Damage. They also get bonus feats to help you down those Feat chains. Arsenal Chaplain also get Weapon Training as a Fighter. Using a Samsaran with the Mystic Past life enables you to add those lovely Ranger spells to our spell list - and guess what? You can use Fervour to swift cast them too.
Only disadvantage is the 3/4 BAB progression losing you iterative attacks at higher levels.
Alternatively Zen Archer is a good choice; with automatic Bonus feats not requiring prerequisites, you can skip the boring Feats and go straight for the good ones, and you don't need to invest heavily in Dex to get them either. Boosting your Wis gives you Wis-based Attacks, bonuses to AC and bonus to Will saves (not to mention perception) and crucially a decent ki pool (which can be used to further enhance your attacks or defences as needed). Flurry is based off Full BaB and comes with free built-in Rapid shot.
Adding in Urban Barabarian to Zen Archer is a mistake, ZA does need to use Dex for his attacks and is better off using Wis (it powers his Ki pool, which gives him some sweet bonuses), so the Urban Barbarians Rage bonuses are mostly wasted. Might work with Ranger or Fighter, though.
Paladin archers are also good, being able to use smite evil on a bow gives it some serious bonuses, though they drop to okayish against non-evil creatures.
Rangers Favored Enemy is also situationally powerful, though once you get access to instant enemy becomes more so.
Ultimately it depends on whether you want consistent damage or spike damage; each build will give you a different mix of these 2 types with Fighter being purely consistent damage and others providing varying amounts of spike damage.
One thing I forgot to add is Sohei Monk; They get Flurry with Bows and Weapon Training as a Fighter, but (unless it's been FAQ'd or errataed) they have not been barred from using Rapid shot with flurry, meaning that RAW they can get 2 extra attacks/round. You might want to check with your GM if he'll allow that.
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archer build
That's a pretty good build, but Burrowing Shot isn't a PFS legal option. You can easily replace it with one of the advanced weapon training options though.
Also @Gavmania, a lot of good advice here, but being PFS, I doubt the player has a Samsaran boon, or would use it on an archery build. And no checking with the GM, It's all based on rule books, campaign clarifications and FAQs.
About the Urban Barbarian/Zen Archer. Well, I actually like the urban bloodrager better, but urban barbarian will let you get by with a mediocre Dex until you get Wis to damage. After that you can retrain out of the barbarian levels, or just take the strength bonus for +2 to damage. Will also let you gain strength if you get stuck in melee before you get point blank master as well.
Another strong option is inquisitor. The main reason being Bane which is incredibly strong on a bow.
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Ah, shoot. I saw Warrior Spirit was illegal and replaced it with Burrowing Shot. I never even checked to make sure Burrowing Shot was legal. I'd probably replace it with Trained Initiative for a +4 (with the Gloves of Dueling) to Initiative. Basically free Improved Initiative as long as you're carrying a bow. Either that or Fighter's Tactics, if there's a Teamwork feat worth fitting into the build (Coordinated Shot, maybe).
Putting that together last night inspired me to actually try this out, so this will be my -15 for PFS. (Through 11th level for normal PFS play).
Human (Ulfen) Freebooter Ranger 2/Weapon Master Fighter 9
Neutral Good
Worshipper of Erastil
Liberty's Edge Faction
STR: 16 DEX: 19 (15+2 Human +1 4th +1 8th) CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 7
Fort: +11 REF: +10 WILL: +6
HP: 101
BAB: +11
1 Ranger 1) Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2 Ranger 2) Rapid Shot
3 Fighter 1) Weapon Focus (Longbow), Iron Will
4 Fighter 2) Deadly Aim
5 Fighter 3) Weapon Training (Bows), Martial Focus (Bows)
6 Fighter 4) Manyshot
7 Fighter 5) Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
8 Fighter 6) Improved Critical (Longbow)
9 Fighter 7) Clustered Shots, Advanced Weapon Training: Trained Initiative
10 Fighter 8) Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)
11 Fighter 9) Improved Precise Shot
Traits: Chillblight Emissary (DR 1/Cold Iron) (Might swap for Indomitable Faith, I just hate duplicating traits over and over on characters), Deadeye Bowman
Skills (41 Ranks): Max Perception. Remaining points spread between Stealth and Survival, with an odd point here or there in a Knowledge Skill or Linguistics to be able to make a roll/get extra languages.
I'll figure out equipment later, but aside from what I mentioned in the earlier post, I'd try for a Cloak of Resistance as high as I can afford, probably a Mithral Agile Breastplate +2, Darkwood Buckler +1 or +2, Lenses of Detection, and an Adaptive Darkwood Composite Longbow +2, Belt of Physical Might +2 STR/+2DEX, Ioun Stone for +2 CON.
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Try Occulist with Transmutation implements. You get access to cast Gravity Bow and gain the ability to bane your weapon a few times a day.
That's where I was heading when I tried to recommend the Warrior Spirit Advanced Weapon Training, which works very similarly to the Occultist ability (actually a little better than a dip, because it lets you add your Weapon Training bonus again as an Enhancement Bonus/combination of Special Abilities). But, for apparently good reason, it's not PFS legal.
I did the Occultist dip on my Magus, and it's worked out pretty well. I can add things like Bane and Ghost Touch that I can't normally add through Magus. It's arguably a better version of Bane at 1st level than the Inquisitor gets all the way up until they get Greater Bane. 1+Int Mod minutes of Bane starting as soon as you can afford a +1 Weapon compared to a number of rounds equal to the Inquisitor's level starting at 5th level. The downside is the Occultist ability takes a standard to activate and a second use if you need to change up mid combat, while the Inquisitor can swap as a swift every round if needed. On the plus side, from Occultist you get an essentially free always on +2 Enhancement bonus to 1 stat (provided you have at least a +3 Int mod and can put 4 Mental Focus points in your Transmutation Implement).
EDIT: One other advantage of the Occultist ability is that it's weapon touched, not necessarily your weapon. So you can put it on someone else's. Ghost Touch on the Barbarian's greatsword before you put it on your bow. Let them become the target.
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So here is what I'm thinking... take 6 levels of Zen Archer and 4 levels of Weapon Master and 2 levels of Freebooter there at the end... that should get me where I want to go, and I can do it as a Dwarf which opens up some nice options. Let me know what you think about feat arrangements.
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Dwarven 6th level Zen Archer/4th level Weapon Master/ 2nd level Freebooter
(Rockstepper, Sky Sentinel)
Attributes:
STR - 14
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 18
CHA - 5
Traits:
Glory of Old
Reactionary
Feats:
1st (F1) - Steel Soul, (F) Point Blank Shot
2nd (M1) - (M) Perfect Strike, (M) Improved Unarmed Strike, (M) Precise Shot
3rd (M2) - Improved Initiative, (M) Weapon Focus: Longbow, (M) Rapid Shot
4th (M3) - (M) Point Blank Master, (M) Zen Archery*, (M) Fast Movement*
5th (M4) - Deadly Aim
6th (M5)
7th (M6) - Toughness, (M) Weapon Specialization: Longbow, (M) Improved Precise Shot
8th (F2) - (F) Manyshot
9th (F3) - Clustered Shots, (F) Weapon Training*
10th (F4) - (F) Improved Critical: Bow
11th (R1) - Advanced Weapon Training: Trained Initiative
12th (R2) - (R) Quickdraw
I get Precise Shot at 2nd and Improved Precise Shot at 7th level, get very strong saves all throughout, a ridiculous Initiative and enough skill ranks to keep me useful outside of combat. Figure I'll max out Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth... dip into a few Knowledge skills and some Survival, Escape Artist and Acrobatics along the way. Is there anything listed above that's not PFS legal?
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Looks pretty good. i like that it gets you to Improved Precise Shot by 7th.
I'm not sure about taking the two Ranger levels at the end. The reason I had them up front was so that the build would have Gravity Bow from the very beginning. Here, I think you'll be better off just sticking with Fighter. It will matter if you end up playing the character through Eyes of the Ten or the new Seeker scenarios. When you hit 13th level, if you've stayed Fighter instead of Ranger, then you'll get your second Weapon Training, adding a +1/+1 to the Bow and a +1 to initiative and getting you another Advanced Weapon Training if you want it.
So at 13th you could take Advanced Weapon Training: Fighter Tactics and Coordinated Shot. Or Advanced Weapon Training: Defensive Weapon Training to get a +2 shield bonus when you wield a bow.
At 14th you could take Greater Weapon Focus.
Basically, though, by the time you hit 11th level, taking the time to activate Gravity Bow won't be as worth it, as the extra 2.5 average damage per attack isn't as impressive as it is at low levels.
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Also, since you're going Zen Archer, make sure you add Qinggong Monk onto that. You can swap out the mostly useless Slow Fall at 4th level to pick up Barkskin as a Ki-power. And I'd suggest swapping High Jump at 5th for Feather Step, though that's less useful for an Archer than a melee monk. Don't be fooled by the feats listed in the Qinggong options. You have to spend Ki to use them, so that makes them near useless (like Quickdraw for 1 Ki per use. No thanks.)
you can't with a flurry.
Doesn't that make Zen Archer rather lame?
Especially considering you need to slug through until level 4 with a 14 DEX before your to hit becomes semi decent?
One last thing... someone who knows Zen Archer better can tell you for sure, but I don't think you can use Rapid Shot and Many Shot with a Flurry with a Bow, despite them appearing on the bonus feat list.
No, Flurry and Rapid Shot can't be used together. My plan is to take advantage of Flurry until I get to 8th and select Manyshot, then I'll switch over to that w/Rapid Shot. I took Rapid Shot when I did because its a pre-req for Manyshot, I get it for free and there's really no better place to take it in the build.
I'm definitely planning on going Quinggong and doing exactly what you said.
I honestly don't expect to get to play the character beyond 11th level... though I might switch from Trained Initiative for Defensive Training.
Freebooter's Bane is better than nothing at that point, I think. Another level of Fighter at 11 won't get me anything, and there will be a nice saving throw boost from the Ranger dip.
No. Those feats are essentially being replaced by flurry and this the zen archer spares you those feats.Doesn't that make Zen Archer rather lame?
Especially considering you need to slug through until level 4 with a 14 DEX before your to hit becomes semi decent?
In comparison to fighter who gains 4 bonus feats instead of 5 in 6 levels you are loosing 2 points of BAB which equates to 10 percent increased accuracy. Add in extra bonuses from weapon training 2 and that's a significant improvement. Pretty sure that the build outlined above is far from autohitting a CR appropriate opponent when taking penalties from DA and RS.
Improved Precise Shot the fighter doesn't get but there still is the deadeye bowman trait...
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Don't know if the reply ahead was actually meant for Wiggz, but assuming it is, I'm in agreement. Taking rapid shot and manyshot to get more attacks (or arrows at least) at your highest BAB may seem like a good idea, but it's not really that great. You only have pseudo full bab with the zen archer, so when you're not using flurry, your BAB drops, which also might affect the damage from deadly aim. I just did a quick build comparison between the two at level eight when you get manyshot with the proposed build. The manyshot build did 36.25 DPR against level appropriate enemies, while ignoring rapid shot and many shot, and just using flurry of blows it did 40.25 damage. An increase or decrease in AC doesn't really change the comparison either. Pretty much at no point is manyshot the better option, especially considering you've invested 2 feats into it.
In comparison to fighter who gains 4 bonus feats instead of 5 in 6 levels you are loosing 2 points of BAB which equates to 10 percent increased accuracy. Add in extra bonuses from weapon training 2 and that's a significant improvement. Pretty sure that the build outlined above is far from autohitting a CR appropriate opponent when taking penalties from DA and RS.Improved Precise Shot the fighter doesn't get but there still is the deadeye bowman trait...
Except, when using flurry you don't lose those 2 BAB, and when not full attacking (which isn't often) rolling twice and taking the better option (perfect strike) beats out +2 to hit on almost any calculation. Not to mention you can use that perfect strike on full attacks as well, and use ki to get extra attacks. Oh and your will save goes up as your to hit goes up, and bark skin for extra AC. Don't get me wrong, I think the fighter makes an amazing archer, I just think the 3 level dip gets the best things the fighter offers, and is easy to take after zen 6.
I personally wouldn't take fighter as the first level, just because zen really takes level 3 to get going. If it was me, I would play one of my many concepts till level 2, use the free rebuild before playing at level 2 to go Zen 2, than play 3 scenarios or a module to insta level 3 and be in the fun zone.
Except, when using flurry you don't lose those 2 BAB, and when not full attacking (which isn't often) rolling twice and taking the better option (perfect strike) beats out +2 to hit on almost any calculation.
I was basically arguing that once you switch out of Flurry mode you aren't gaining anything from being a Zen Archer, neither the full BAB to hit nor the extra attack from Ki-Pool. Perfect Strike being so limited in uses per day is hard to factor into DPR calculations. To the best of my knowledge it can be equated to a an increase of roughly 20% to hit on one attack per round 6 times a day.
If we step away from the pure DPR math sure the Zen Archer has it all. Then again there isn't that much of a difference in whether your main stat is WIS or DEX.
But for DPR that loss of 2 points of BAB and lack of any static to hit and damage modifiers makes Zen Archer without Flurry look very unsexy in my book when you compare it to a Fighter or a Barbarian, Paladin or even an Inquisitor or Warpriest who get large static bonuses. If Deighton's math is on point and all your doing at level 8 is 40 DPR then that isn't convincing.
If you really want Zen Archer in the mix, an Idyllkin (Agathion blood) Aasimar has a race trait allowing them to be Neutrally aligned monks.
Except, when using flurry you don't lose those 2 BAB, and when not full attacking (which isn't often) rolling twice and taking the better option (perfect strike) beats out +2 to hit on almost any calculation.I was basically arguing that once you switch out of Flurry mode you aren't gaining anything from being a Zen Archer, neither the full BAB to hit nor the extra attack from Ki-Pool. Perfect Strike being so limited in uses per day is hard to factor into DPR calculations. To the best of my knowledge it can be equated to a an increase of roughly 20% to hit on one attack per round 6 times a day.
If we step away from the pure DPR math sure the Zen Archer has it all. Then again there isn't that much of a difference in whether your main stat is WIS or DEX.
But for DPR that loss of 2 points of BAB and lack of any static to hit and damage modifiers makes Zen Archer without Flurry look very unsexy in my book when you compare it to a Fighter or a Barbarian, Paladin or even an Inquisitor or Warpriest who get large static bonuses. If Deighton's math is on point and all your doing at level 8 is 40 DPR then that isn't convincing.
Alex I do agree with you in theory, but not in practice. In theory, the monk would lose out on the extra attack and the BAB from flurry enough for it to matter. In practice, from what I have seen in pfs, Archers are rarely hindered from full attacking. Zen Archers even more so, since they have great AC, saves, and do not provoke in melee from level 3, they have no reason to move. Most of the time when I have grouped with a zen archer, they had AC rivaling any front liner (mage armor from wand, bark skin, wisdom bonus, dex. easily 24+ with no investment 28 with a ki point). It really is a bit unfair.
Alex I do agree with you in theory, but not in practice. In theory, the monk would lose out on the extra attack and the BAB from flurry enough for it to matter. In practice, from what I have seen in pfs, Archers are rarely hindered from full attacking. Zen Archers even more so, since they have great AC, saves, and do not provoke in melee from level 3, they have no reason to move. Most of the time when I have grouped with a zen archer, they had AC rivaling any front liner (mage armor from wand, bark skin, wisdom bonus, dex. easily 24+ with no investment 28 with a ki point). It really is a bit unfair.
Hmm not sure where I was arguing for not making full attacks as an archer... the point of debate is that you cannot use Manyshot and Rapid Shot with Flurry.
So either you take a normal full attack using Rapid Shot and Manyshot or you do a flurry of blows (actually arrows) which gives you bonus attacks and allows you to use Ki to get yet another extra attack.
Alex I do agree with you in theory, but not in practice. In theory, the monk would lose out on the extra attack and the BAB from flurry enough for it to matter. In practice, from what I have seen in pfs, Archers are rarely hindered from full attacking. Zen Archers even more so, since they have great AC, saves, and do not provoke in melee from level 3, they have no reason to move. Most of the time when I have grouped with a zen archer, they had AC rivaling any front liner (mage armor from wand, bark skin, wisdom bonus, dex. easily 24+ with no investment 28 with a ki point). It really is a bit unfair.Hmm not sure where I was arguing for not making full attacks as an archer... the point of debate is that you cannot use Manyshot and Rapid Shot with Flurry.
So either you take a normal full attack using Rapid Shot and Manyshot or you do a flurry of blows (actually arrows) which gives you bonus attacks and allows you to use Ki to get yet another extra attack.
Yes, I misunderstood where you were coming from, thanks for the clarification. I agree switching to many shot and rapid shot on a zen archer does not seem like a good idea at all.
Alex I do agree with you in theory, but not in practice. In theory, the monk would lose out on the extra attack and the BAB from flurry enough for it to matter. In practice, from what I have seen in pfs, Archers are rarely hindered from full attacking. Zen Archers even more so, since they have great AC, saves, and do not provoke in melee from level 3, they have no reason to move. Most of the time when I have grouped with a zen archer, they had AC rivaling any front liner (mage armor from wand, bark skin, wisdom bonus, dex. easily 24+ with no investment 28 with a ki point). It really is a bit unfair.Hmm not sure where I was arguing for not making full attacks as an archer... the point of debate is that you cannot use Manyshot and Rapid Shot with Flurry.
So either you take a normal full attack using Rapid Shot and Manyshot or you do a flurry of blows (actually arrows) which gives you bonus attacks and allows you to use Ki to get yet another extra attack.
Yes, I misunderstood where you were coming from, thanks for the clarification. I agree switching to many shot and rapid shot on a zen archer does not seem like a good idea at all.
edit: At early levels, if you don't know what to take with the monk bonus feat, Dodge or Deflect Arrows are fine choices. Although going Zen Archer from the beginning avoids that problem.
I didn't check the math, but it seemed to me that Manyshot + Rapid Shot would offer a better damage curve than Flurry of Blows, I didn't think to take into account Perfect Strike. If I'm better off with Flurry
I'm correct in believing that the BAB from other classes stacks with Flurry, right? How does it work with iteratives, though? Let's say a 6th level ZA and a 4th level Fighter, what would base Flurry look like? +4/+4/-1 from Monk and +4 from Fighter means +8/+8/+3, correct? And that's with 7 uses of Perfect Strike and his Ki pool. Meanwhile using Manyshot + Rapid Shot it would be +6(x2)/+6/+1?
With that in mind it definitely seems as though I can find better uses for those feats...
Definitely believe the Zen Archer levels offer more versatility and survivability than going straight Fighter.
1st (F1) - Steel Soul, (F) Point Blank Shot
2nd (M1) - (M) Perfect Strike, (M) Improved Unarmed Strike, (M) Precise Shot
3rd (M2) - Improved Initiative, (M) Weapon Focus: Longbow, (M) Deflect Arrows
4th (M3) - (M) Point Blank Master, (M) Zen Archery*, (M) Fast Movement*
5th (M4) - Deadly Aim
6th (M5)
7th (M6) - Toughness, (M) Weapon Specialization: Longbow, (M) Improved Precise Shot
8th (F2) - (F) Clustered Shots
9th (F3) - Quickdraw (F) Weapon Training*
10th (F4) - (F) Improved Critical: Bow
11th (R1) - Advanced Weapon Training: Trained Initiative
12th (R2) - (R) Dodge
I sure wish there was a way to get Evasion back...
Can anyone think of a better use for the 9th and 11th level feats?
Doesn't Advanced Weapon Training require fighter level 5? How can you get it when you are fighter level 4. Is there a combo here I am not seeing?
Doesn't Advanced Weapon Training require fighter level 5? How can you get it when you are fighter level 4. Is there a combo here I am not seeing?
From the feat list:
Special: Fighters that have the weapon master archetype can select this feat beginning at 4th level. The benefits of a weapon master's advanced weapon training options apply only to his selected weapon rather than all weapons in the same fighter weapon group, and he can't select the weapon specialist advanced weapon training option. A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn't count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels.
Can anyone think of a better use for the 9th and 11th level feats?
Also, I'm wondering if I wouldn't be better off taking those last two levels as Monk levels, to get me to the next Flurry iteration at 8th...
Yeah, as I mentioned a bunch of posts back, the extra flurry is pretty good. It is at lowest BAB, so not a total waste if you can find something else that fits the build better. But it is fun to be a machine gun. At Monk 8 with a Ki point, and boots of speed you fire 6 arrows.
As for better feats. The beauty here is you don't need any more combat feats, find something fun/flavorful. If you can find 3 feats that you don't need somewhere else, you could go Nature Soul > Animal Ally > Boon Companion. The choice of companion isn't amazing, but it could be a fun quirk. Or look at another feat chain that would be useful.
Being an Archer and having feats to spare...sounds pretty awesome :)
I'd look into some magic item masteries to add some spell like abilities!
I'm correct in believing that the BAB from other classes stacks with Flurry, right? How does it work with iteratives, though? Let's say a 6th level ZA and a 4th level Fighter, what would base Flurry look like? +4/+4/-1 from Monk and +4 from Fighter means +8/+8/+3, correct? And that's with 7 uses of Perfect Strike and his Ki pool. Meanwhile using Manyshot + Rapid Shot it would be +6(x2)/+6/+1?
Was this accurate?
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Alright, for those of you whom have been following this thread and/or offering a wealth of advice, this is what I've decided to go with. I'm not certain I could do much better, really.
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Dwarven 8th level Zen Archer & Quingong Monk/4th level Weaponmaster
alternate racial traits: Rock Stepper, Sky Sentinel, FCB = extra skill rank/Monk level
Attributes:
STR - 14
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 18 (+1 @ 4th & 8th)
CHA - 5 (+1 @ 12th)
Traits:
Deadeye Bowman
Reactionary
Feats:
1st (F1) - Steel Soul, (F) Toughness
2nd (M1) - (M) Perfect Strike, (M) Improved Unarmed Strike, (M) Precise Shot
3rd (M2) - Improved Initiative, (M) Weapon Focus: Longbow, (M) Point Blank Shot
4th (M3) - (M) Point Blank Master
5th (M4) - Deadly Aim
6th (M5)
7th (M6) - Extra Ki, (M) Weapon Specialization: Longbow, (M) Improved Precise Shot
8th (F2) - (F) Clustered Shots
9th (F3) - Extra Ki
10th (F4) - (F) Improved Critical: Bow
11th (M7) - Extra Ki
12th (M8)
Skills: (level ranks are taken at)
Perception (1-12)
Stealth (1-12)
Sense Motive (1-12)
Profession: Teacher (2)
Knowledge: Dungeoneering (2)
Knowledge: Religion (3)
Knowledge: History (2)
Acrobatics (4-7, 11-12, 4, 6, 12)
Escape Artist (4-7, 11-12, 5, 7, 11)
Climb (3)
Swim (3)
Between Deadeye Bowman, Precise Shot at 2nd and Improved Precise Shot at 7th, I should have to overcome fewer obstacles than most. AC and Initiative should be high, mobility will be excellent and saving throws through the roof. The extra feats will allow for things like Toughness and Extra Ki to be taken, the latter of which should give me broader versatility both offensively & defensively. With no armor, excellent movement, high stealth and perception as well as darkvision, he'll be able to serve as a superb scout... and while he lacks social skills, Sense Motive should prove useful in those situations. Between Weaponmaster and the Gloves, even my bow should be relatively safe from reprisals.
Are Vows PFS legal? I ask because, RP-wise, I could see playing this guy as someone who immediately sees to the truth of things (Perception, Sense Motive) and has a bad habit of calling people out on lies or telling it like it is, with no sugar-coating whatsoever. I wouldn't get much out of it mechanically, (1 extra Ki point), but it would definitely suit the character concept.
Here's a snapshot of him at 10th level, defaulting to standard wealth by level:
STR - 14, DEX - 18, CON - 14, INT - 12, WIS - 24, CHA - 5
Movement 40’, Initiative +10
HP 88, AC 26 w/Barkskin (Flat-Footed 22, Touch 23)
Fort +13, Reflex +12, Will +15 (+2 vs. Poison, +4 vs. Spells & SLA’s)
Combat:
Attack: +19/+19/+14 (Point Blank Master, Perfect Strike 7/day)
+4 [BAB] +4/+4/-1 [Flurry] +7 [WIS] +1 [PBS] +1 [Focus] -3 [Deadly Aim] +2 [Bow] +3 [Weapon Training]
Damage: 1d8+16 (Clustered Shots, Crit 19+ x3)
1d8+2 [Bow] +2 [STR] +1 [PBS] +6 [Deadly Aim] +2 [Specialization] +3 [Weapon Training]
Ki Pool: 14
Ki Strike (magic), Free action – Quickdraw feat for 1 round. Swift action – expend 1 Ki point to make an additional attack with Flurry, increase speed by 20’, gain +4 dodge bonus to AC or increase range increment by 50’ for 1 round. Standard action – expend 1 Ki point to cast Barkskin (self only).
Gear: (61,000/62,000)
+2 Composite Darkwood Longbow (STR +2), Headband of Wisdom +4, Ring of Protection +1, Cloak of Resistance +2, Gloves of Dueling, Belt of Dexterity +4
Anybody see anything that looks odd or incorrect to them? Anything I'm overlooking?
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Vows are legal in PFS. I've run a monk with a Vow of Truth and Vow of Cleanliness in PFS. The Vow of Cleanliness mostly means that I need to carry a weapon for fighting Undead, since I can't use Unarmed Strike on them without breaking the Vow. For flavor, I found a way to cast Prestidigitation (Cloak of the Hedge Wizard).
The Vow of Truth has been trickier. I've run into a couple of situations where I just had to decide to stay quiet. And I look at the scenario blurbs and avoid anything that looks like it might involve lying (sneaking into an Aspis controlled town, for example).
The build looks good. I can't help but wonder if there's something better you can do with your 7th, 9th, and 11th level feats. A style chain or something. Or maybe Snap Shot, and Improved Snap Shot at 11th.
The build looks good. I can't help but wonder if there's something better you can do with your 7th, 9th, and 11th level feats. A style chain or something. Or maybe Snap Shot, and Improved Snap Shot at 11th.
I've looked at a handful of options - that one chief among them. Did Improved Snapshot get nerfed down to 10' instead of 15'? That makes a difference.
I will say I like the idea that I don't have to 'ration' those extra attacks the Ki points will grant me.
Vows are legal in PFS. I've run a monk with a Vow of Truth and Vow of Cleanliness in PFS. The Vow of Cleanliness mostly means that I need to carry a weapon for fighting Undead, since I can't use Unarmed Strike on them without breaking the Vow. For flavor, I found a way to cast Prestidigitation (Cloak of the Hedge Wizard).
The Vow of Truth has been trickier. I've run into a couple of situations where I just had to decide to stay quiet. And I look at the scenario blurbs and avoid anything that looks like it might involve lying (sneaking into an Aspis controlled town, for example).
Ah, just noticed that Zen Archers can't take Vows since they don't get the Still Mind class feature. Just as well - one less thing to worry about.