Honestly, the longer I play and the older I get... the more I think the old tried and true "roll 3d6 for each stat in front of everybody" method is best. Although 4d6 and discard the lowest is fine, too.
It results in unusually powerful characters infrequently, stops stat min/maxing (which can ruin a party, especially when everyone is INT 8), it's fair, and it encourages clever design of a character around what you have to work with, rather than making a designer character for power.
Random stats promote RP, IMO.
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Dude, get off your high horse. People can roleplay just as effectively when smashing the game to pieces as they can when gimping themselves. I've seen both happen with the same person. Don't drag us back to the ages of fallling rock just because you don't like the power level. Hell my roleplaying level is among the same between my game breaking Herald Caller and my puny Rake+Scout rogue. If the s~&* you were spouting was true, then the rogue would make me some god at roleplaying while the Herald Caller would make me some cardboard cutout.
Ugh, you make me ashamed to be a fellow stat roller. There are so many times where the roll is way too good, too bad, or doesn't have something that fits the character that there are times where I wish I could use point buy to speed the process up. Don't get me started on how many 4's, 5's, and 6's I've seen ruin an otherwise great roll, and not just for me. Gods, I can't imagine the old days with 3d6 straight down. Okay you're character has...6, 11, 8, 8, 9, 14. Congratulations you can make a half-decent bard or sorcerer or oracle and not much else.
Random stats don't promote RP. Good characters promote RP. Good worlds promote RP. Good GMs promote RP. You use stats as part of roleplaying sure, but good RPing and good optimization are not mutually exclusive.
You know what, I'm gonna say it again to make sure it gets drilled into your head, good RPing and good optimization are not mutually exclusive.
Dude, get off your high horse. People can roleplay just as effectively when smashing the game to pieces as they can when gimping themselves. I've seen both happen with the same person. Don't drag us back to the ages of fallling rock just because you don't like the power level. Hell my roleplaying level is among the same between my game breaking Herald Caller and my puny Rake+Scout rogue. If the s*&$ you were spouting was true, then the rogue would make me some god at roleplaying while the Herald Caller would make me some cardboard cutout.
Ugh, you make me ashamed to be a fellow stat roller. There are so many times where the roll is way too good, too bad, or doesn't have something that fits the character that there are times where I wish I could use point buy to speed the process up. Don't get me started on how many 4's, 5's, and 6's I've seen ruin an otherwise great roll, and not just for me. Gods, I can't imagine the old days with 3d6 straight down. Okay you're character has...6, 11, 8, 8, 9, 14. Congratulations you can make a half-decent bard or sorcerer or oracle and not much else.
Random stats don't promote RP. Good characters promote RP. Good worlds promote RP. Good GMs promote RP. You use stats as part of roleplaying sure, but good RPing and good optimization are not mutually exclusive.
You know what, I'm gonna say it again to make sure it gets drilled into your head, good RPing and good optimization are not mutually exclusive.
If I misunderstand you correctly. You're saying that stats are inversely correlated to RP potential. That having random rolls Increases greatly your ability to role play, and that point buys are limiting your role play because you are limited on how high a stat can go. Did I sufficiently completely miss your point? :D
The min/max mindset tends to turn the focus away from RP is what I was implying. I stand by that assertion. From what I've seen, generally when people become too obsessed with the meta, a higher focus on fighting exclusively, or just pulling off crazy things is the result. Every time? Of course not. I'm speaking generally.
Yes, ofc you can have good RP and insane stats.
Also, I disagree that varied or lesser stats necessarily constitutes "gimping oneself". Exception being a caster you intend to take to 9th level spells... obviously you kind of need that stat high in that case.
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Gods, I can't imagine the old days with 3d6 straight down. Okay you're character has...6, 11, 8, 8, 9, 14. Congratulations you can make a half-decent bard or sorcerer or oracle and not much else.
I will say - from what I've read (I started playing in 3.5) stats didn't mean as much in earlier editions as they do now as a % of character power. So having mediocre stats wasn't as detrimental to their power level besides disallowing some classes which you didn't qualify for.
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The min/max mindset tends to turn the focus away from RP is what I was implying. I stand by that assertion. From what I've seen, generally when people become too obsessed with the meta, a higher focus on fighting exclusively, or just pulling off crazy things is the result. Every time? Of course not. I'm speaking generally.
Ugh - you remind me of a guy I met at a con last week. He was a poorly built rogue who used a single weapon, and he got offended when I asked if he used a buckler or another weapon in his offhand. "I'm no twink."
He also stormed off halfway through the module (putting us down to 3 players) because he misheard something the GM said due to the general noise of the room after making several disparaging comments about how terrible the GM was. (The GM was fine.)
Yep. Having a weak character sure made him great at RP! (I'm not talking about you - I'm just speaking generally.)
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Pathfinder draws 2 kinds of people
Theorycrafters/war gamers
role players.
No these two skills aren't exclusive. But I would imagine that one group has a lot less representation on the boards. Also, pathfinder is like REALLY good for the Theory/war gamers, while role players can do just as well if not better using other simpler systems. I know some people that really have no interest in the roleplay side of things. They make their characters, do the skill checks, and fight the things. The story is only a filler from one check/combat to the next. Having random stats doesn't make a war gamer suddenly a role player.
So yes, while you'll maybe see a correlation between war gamers and lack of role playing it's not that the war gamers are doing it wrong, and are only theorycrafing because they control their stats, they just aren't drawn to this game for the role play potential.
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Pathfinder draws 2 kinds of people
Theorycrafters/war gamers
role players.No these two skills aren't exclusive.
Every statement falls into two categories, absolute or correct. I'm not saying these two are mutually exclusive, but it is unlikely that they cross.
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I've decided that I'm not going to worry about how high player stats become; I will work on being able to build encounters that can take it, moving to higher CRs if necessary.
When it comes down to deciding stats; I've seen a lot of recommendation for a 20 point buy. I actually saw in a different thread someone talk about rolling 2d6+6 for stats, and I'm thinking of giving that a try. I was worried about stats being over-powered, but I still want my players to have decent stats to work with.
Thank you everyone for the advice and opinions; a lot of it was really helpful to me, and I'm amazed I sparked such a conversation about this.
Just a heads up, the CR system tends to be a little weak, don't be surprised when your party breezes through CR appropriate encounters. Good luck!
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Just a heads up, the CR system tends to be a little weak, don't be surprised when your party breezes through CR appropriate encounters. Good luck!
On this I actually agree with the guy. You should always compare the monsters to the party and run calculations yourself before throwing them at the party.
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Honestly, the longer I play and the older I get... the more I think the old tried and true "roll 3d6 for each stat in front of everybody" method is best. Although 4d6 and discard the lowest is fine, too.
It results in unusually powerful characters infrequently, stops stat min/maxing (which can ruin a party, especially when everyone is INT 8), it's fair, and it encourages clever design of a character around what you have to work with, rather than making a designer character for power.
Random stats promote RP, IMO.
Rolling does nothing to stop min-mixing. That myth needs to be taken out back and shot. It stops a player deliberately choosing how much he can sacrifce in one stat to be good at another, but nothing stops him from putting the best stats where he needs them, while putting the less useful stats in an area that does not hurt as much. Nothing also stops him from putting the best combination of choices(class, magic items, feats, etc) together
Wait, what. How are you all getting 30PB with 4d6 drop lowest?
As far as I'm aware, it's roughly equivalent to 18.7 point buy.
4d6 drop lowest reroll all 1's is around 20.7.
2d6+6 is around 25.7.
4d6 drop lowest generates an average stat of 13-14. I went with the 14, which is 5 points in the point buy. Six stats times 5 points each gives 30. It is probably more accurate to say (3X5)+(3X3)= 24 points, but the math was easier the first way.
4d6, reroll 1's, drop lowest generates an average stat of 14-15.
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Honestly, the longer I play and the older I get... the more I think the old tried and true "roll 3d6 for each stat in front of everybody" method is best. Although 4d6 and discard the lowest is fine, too.
It results in unusually powerful characters infrequently, stops stat min/maxing (which can ruin a party, especially when everyone is INT 8), it's fair, and it encourages clever design of a character around what you have to work with, rather than making a designer character for power.
Random stats promote RP, IMO.
I am going to have to call BS on this.
The roll in order method is much like Warhammer FRP where you roll you starting class too. If you want to play a wizard this campaign but rolled a 7 for Int I guess it just sucks to be you. Why not roll for alignment too? Maybe gender? Why not race too> Since the dice are making all of your decisions instead of you, this is just another form of roll-play instead of the role-play that you claim it is advocating.
Fair? How exactly is it fair when one person rolls awesome and another rolls like crap? The one with good rolls is going to dominate and the one with crap rolls is going to struggle to be adequate. Sounds like at most one of those people is going to be having fun. That is not any definition of fair for any game I want to play.
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Honestly, the longer I play and the older I get... the more I think the old tried and true "roll 3d6 for each stat in front of everybody" method is best. Although 4d6 and discard the lowest is fine, too.
It results in unusually powerful characters infrequently, stops stat min/maxing (which can ruin a party, especially when everyone is INT 8), it's fair, and it encourages clever design of a character around what you have to work with, rather than making a designer character for power.
Random stats promote RP, IMO.
Actually - the lack of fairness is the greatest problem. You can still have that one person who starts with a 17 or 18 and tosses it into intelligence and plays a game busting wizard but you can also have someone who has nothing better than a 14 and has to figure out where to put a 5.
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3d6 or 4d6 is fun if everyone is into it and you're open to a random gamble on who's playing what. Point-buy usually leads to a more functional party, though.
Random stats work better in systems designed for one-shots. I've never had an issue rolling stats in Call of Cthulhu, but I've only done one-shots in that system.
Actually - the lack of fairness is the greatest problem. You can still have that one person who starts with a 17 or 18 and tosses it into intelligence and plays a game busting wizard but you can also have someone who has nothing better than a 14 and has to figure out where to put a 5.Honestly, the longer I play and the older I get... the more I think the old tried and true "roll 3d6 for each stat in front of everybody" method is best. Although 4d6 and discard the lowest is fine, too.
It results in unusually powerful characters infrequently, stops stat min/maxing (which can ruin a party, especially when everyone is INT 8), it's fair, and it encourages clever design of a character around what you have to work with, rather than making a designer character for power.
Random stats promote RP, IMO.
You're confusing fairness with equality. It's a common mistake, don't feel bad :D
Just saw Gm1990's posts after writing this - his is a much better response and nails what I was getting at, exactly.
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3d6 or 4d6 is fun if everyone is into it and you're open to a random gamble on who's playing what. Point-buy usually leads to a more functional party, though.Random stats work better in systems designed for one-shots. I've never had an issue rolling stats in Call of Cthulhu, but I've only done one-shots in that system.
It's Call of Cthulhu. If you're not losing an investigator every other session, your keeper is being way too lenient. :)
Still, I take your meaning.
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I agree with Chess Pwn, 20 point buy, core races (maybe others, but definitely the core ones can keep stats sane), and I recommend Automatic Bonus Progression, Unchained pg 156. This eliminates the need for all these stat boosting items (the items are not in the game with this system) because it gives the PCs the bonus from those items automatically. This is good because modules and Challenge Ratings assume that your PCs have the items which characters are supposed to have (roughly) at whatever level they are (Core Rulebook, Table 12-4, pg 399, Character Wealth by Level).Auto Bonus Prog prevents situations where a PC just saves up all their money and buys the best +6 stat thing way earlier than the challenges faced anticipate. Which could be good or bad, but the Auto Bonus Prog is fair to all the PCs. Any stat above 25 (with or without Auto Bonus) just seems a bit extreme for characters under 14th level to me.
One thing to keep in mind is that the GM has control over what's available to buy. Don't want the players saving up for a +6 stat item by level 4, then it's not available in the area. Maybe the only one for sale in the city was just bought by another adventurer. Or maybe the old wizard who was capable of making them died in his sleep. Either way, it's not for sale.
If it's a player trying to craft said +6 stat item at low levels, well let them try. There's a good chance they are pushing their luck. It might end up a cursed item. In fact, I just recently saw a greedy wizard who tried making THE best amulet of natural armor as soon as he got craft wondrous items. He'd saved up to do this. Aaand, he blew the crafting check so badly he ended up making a scarab of death. Self correcting problem. Remember that the DC to craft something goes up by 5 for every requirement you don't meet. This includes spells needed, level needed, and so forth. As such it's not safe trying to make things too far beyond your current caster level.
I've decided that I'm not going to worry about how high player stats become; I will work on being able to build encounters that can take it, moving to higher CRs if necessary.
When it comes down to deciding stats; I've seen a lot of recommendation for a 20 point buy. I actually saw in a different thread someone talk about rolling 2d6+6 for stats, and I'm thinking of giving that a try. I was worried about stats being over-powered, but I still want my players to have decent stats to work with.
Thank you everyone for the advice and opinions; a lot of it was really helpful to me, and I'm amazed I sparked such a conversation about this.
Since you said you were new, let me tell you something it took me a LONG time to figure out as a gamer. The GM has unlimited resources. It doesn't matter how powerful the characters are, the GM has as much power as he or she decides to have. Your job as the GM is to set the difficulty level. With a little practice, you can set it anywhere you and your players like.
There are people who've been playing 30 years that haven't figured this out. So I think it's good you decided not to worry about it. You're way ahead of the GM curve!
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Actually - the lack of fairness is the greatest problem. You can still have that one person who starts with a 17 or 18 and tosses it into intelligence and plays a game busting wizard but you can also have someone who has nothing better than a 14 and has to figure out where to put a 5.Honestly, the longer I play and the older I get... the more I think the old tried and true "roll 3d6 for each stat in front of everybody" method is best. Although 4d6 and discard the lowest is fine, too.
It results in unusually powerful characters infrequently, stops stat min/maxing (which can ruin a party, especially when everyone is INT 8), it's fair, and it encourages clever design of a character around what you have to work with, rather than making a designer character for power.
Random stats promote RP, IMO.
You're confusing fairness with equality. It's a common mistake, don't feel bad :D
Just saw Gm1990's posts after writing this - his is a much better response and nails what I was getting at, exactly.
I've long favored 3d6 down the line for stats. But then I started with 2nd edition AD&D. I find it creates more organic characters. Sure you get the occasional powerhouse or 98 pound weakling. But on average it makes for interesting characters. Some of the characters I've enjoyed the most were made using this method. And often they weren't particularly powerful. In fact, a few times I've played characters who others in the group thought were "gimped" and contributed just fine.
I also feel it promotes roleplaying more. When looking at a stat block of 12,11,13,6,16,10 you start to think about what sort of life those attributes shaped. You start developing a personality. In this case maybe it's a man who's slow and methodical, many consider him to be an idiot. And yet he shows wisdom beyond what people expect. While not book smart, he is world wise. And this lets him bring his insights gained over slow and patient observation to the problems at hand.
But that's just me.
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3d6 or 4d6 is fun if everyone is into it and you're open to a random gamble on who's playing what. Point-buy usually leads to a more functional party, though.Random stats work better in systems designed for one-shots. I've never had an issue rolling stats in Call of Cthulhu, but I've only done one-shots in that system.It's Call of Cthulhu. If you're not losing an investigator every other session, your keeper is being way too lenient. :)
Still, I take your meaning.
That was kind of my point. I don't think I've ever survived a one-shot and kept my sanity.
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That was kind of my point. I don't think I've ever survived a one-shot and kept my sanity.3d6 or 4d6 is fun if everyone is into it and you're open to a random gamble on who's playing what. Point-buy usually leads to a more functional party, though.Random stats work better in systems designed for one-shots. I've never had an issue rolling stats in Call of Cthulhu, but I've only done one-shots in that system.It's Call of Cthulhu. If you're not losing an investigator every other session, your keeper is being way too lenient. :)
Still, I take your meaning.
Uhm, you don't survive a one-shot. It kills you, or in CoC drives you insane just by looking at the eldrich horror, but the point remains. You don't survive one-shots. If you're surviving it, it's no longer a one-shot.
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Uhm, you don't survive a one-shot. It kills you, or in CoC drives you insane just by looking at the eldrich horror, but the point remains. You don't survive one-shots. If you're surviving it, it's no longer a one-shot.
Why? I've had fellow players survive one-shots of CoC. It's just sort of assumed that the character goes on with their life with their memories which no one believes and the occasional horrific nightmare.
No game should be broken with ability scores from a 20 point buy-in.
Breakage can only occur if the DM/GM allows it to happen by giving too many non-standard bonuses.
I've long favored 3d6 down the line for stats. But then I started with 2nd edition AD&D. I find it creates more organic characters. Sure you get the occasional powerhouse or 98 pound weakling. But on average it makes for interesting characters. Some of the characters I've enjoyed the most were made using this method. And often they weren't particularly powerful. In fact, a few times I've played characters who others in the group thought were "gimped" and contributed just fine.
I also feel it promotes roleplaying more. When looking at a stat block of 12,11,13,6,16,10 you start to think about what sort of life those attributes shaped. You start developing a personality. In this case maybe it's a man who's slow and methodical, many consider him to be an idiot. And yet he shows wisdom beyond what people expect. While not book smart, he is world wise. And this lets him bring his insights gained over slow and patient...
Maybe it's a second edition thing. That's where I started, too.
Maybe it's a second edition thing. That's where I started, too.I've long favored 3d6 down the line for stats. But then I started with 2nd edition AD&D. I find it creates more organic characters. Sure you get the occasional powerhouse or 98 pound weakling. But on average it makes for interesting characters. Some of the characters I've enjoyed the most were made using this method. And often they weren't particularly powerful. In fact, a few times I've played characters who others in the group thought were "gimped" and contributed just fine.
I also feel it promotes roleplaying more. When looking at a stat block of 12,11,13,6,16,10 you start to think about what sort of life those attributes shaped. You start developing a personality. In this case maybe it's a man who's slow and methodical, many consider him to be an idiot. And yet he shows wisdom beyond what people expect. While not book smart, he is world wise. And this lets him bring his insights gained over slow and patient...
Sorry. I started with 2nd edition as well, and I disliked 3d6 in order after the first game I ran. Second game was 3d6 arrange, and 3rd was 4d6 drop lowest arrange. :P
Do your players want to be mastered?
It is you or them, remember it is always a battle of atrition and they are out for your blood! Right?
I hate to bring more math into this, but I couldn't let this go.
Its the casino model. Casino's are a thing because the house -ALWAYS- wins more than it loses - meaning gamblers -always- lose more than they win. Your safe "game" in a casino is putting 20's in the change-maker and hearing 100 quarters pile into the tray.
I'd play that machine all day. Or until someone noticed me giggling in mad delight and just before I would be invited to leave the premises.
That said, I honestly am not a huge fan of the '3d6 down the line' method. I have no problems with arranging who plays what with my gaming group -- say, the guy who always tanks in other games he's in wants to be a sorcerer, or someone else wants to be the Word of God guy. (Although this tends to result in me tanking away most of the time.) And if you're wanting to try your hand at being Barbie the Barbarian after years of putting on the rogue rouge, it's hard to start your career in barbarism with STR 12 DEX 9 CON 10 as I just did.
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Sorry. I started with 2nd edition as well, and I disliked 3d6 in order after the first game I ran. Second game was 3d6 arrange, and 3rd was 4d6 drop lowest arrange. :PI've long favored 3d6 down the line for stats. But then I started with 2nd edition AD&D. I find it creates more organic characters...Maybe it's a second edition thing. That's where I started, too.
I think it's about how you develop your character concept and how much control over that concept you like to have.
If you enjoy using random elements to get your creative juices flowing, and aren't set on any particular kind of character, rolling stats in order is great!
However if you start a game with even a basic concept already drawn up, rolling stats in order can be a pain -
Qaianna's barbarian being an example. The more detailed the concept the less likely the random stats will cooperate. Like if I want to play a big beefy guy (high Str) who trips over his words (low Cha) and has always been stereotyped as the "dumb brute" but is actually pretty smart (decent Int) - that's three potential points of failure.
Sorry. I started with 2nd edition as well, and I disliked 3d6 in order after the first game I ran. Second game was 3d6 arrange, and 3rd was 4d6 drop lowest arrange. :PI've long favored 3d6 down the line for stats. But then I started with 2nd edition AD&D. I find it creates more organic characters...Maybe it's a second edition thing. That's where I started, too.I think it's about how you develop your character concept and how much control over that concept you like to have.
If you enjoy using random elements to get your creative juices flowing, and aren't set on any particular kind of character, rolling stats in order is great!
However if you start a game with even a basic concept already drawn up, rolling stats in order can be a pain -
Qaianna's barbarian being an example. The more detailed the concept the less likely the random stats will cooperate. Like if I want to play a big beefy guy (high Str) who trips over his words (low Cha) and has always been stereotyped as the "dumb brute" but is actually pretty smart (decent Int) - that's three potential points of failure.
I'm all about giving my players options. Even though I use a high stat generation method, if a player wanted to use lower stats, that's fine too.
Oddly none ever have, for some reason...
I have once because I wanted to dump wisdom on a character.
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I hate to bring more math into this, but I couldn't let this go.
Its the casino model. Casino's are a thing because the house -ALWAYS- wins more than it loses - meaning gamblers -always- lose more than they win. Your safe "game" in a casino is putting 20's in the change-maker and hearing 100 quarters pile into the tray.I'd play that machine all day. Or until someone noticed me giggling in mad delight and just before I would be invited to leave the premises.
That said, I honestly am not a huge fan of the '3d6 down the line' method. I have no problems with arranging who plays what with my gaming group -- say, the guy who always tanks in other games he's in wants to be a sorcerer, or someone else wants to be the Word of God guy. (Although this tends to result in me tanking away most of the time.) And if you're wanting to try your hand at being Barbie the Barbarian after years of putting on the rogue rouge, it's hard to start your career in barbarism with STR 12 DEX 9 CON 10 as I just did.
This happens regularly with 3d6 down the line. But honestly, I never saw an issue with it. Back in 2nd edition, the only truly justified reroll was if you got 8 or less in every attribute. And that's only cause you didn't qualify for any class. I played many a thief with 9 dex, fighter with 9 str, and wizard with 9 Int cause those were my best stats.
With classes no longer being gated by having attributes of X number or better (seriously, paladins and rangers were HARD to roll up) IMO it's even less an issue. Okay, granted, having a sucky con is a bad thing. Or having a dex of 4 would be problematic at times. An issue which point buy nicely sidesteps due to limiting you to 7 at the lowest (5 with a racial penalty). But then, how many will take con or dex as their dump stat?
Then again, even with 4d6 drop the lowest arrange to taste... I've still gotten characters with horrible stats. You know, the dreaded quadruple 1's.
On the other hand, the past few years I've truly come to love point buy character creation. The fact that is that if you didn't get the exact character you wanted with point buy... you didn't try hard enough. And this appeals to me. Especially in the superhero genre or when in an anime based game. Since I GM via play-by-post a lot, point buy in pathfinder is nice too. It lets me ensure people aren't lying about their dice rolls, yet also avoid the often crappy dice roller the site I'm using has. Seriously, play-by-post dice rollers tend to roll REALLY low for attributes for some reason. Probably due to everyone having it roll all of them at once.
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I think it's about how you develop your character concept and how much control over that concept you like to have.
If you enjoy using random elements to get your creative juices flowing, and aren't set on any particular kind of character, rolling stats in order is great!
However if you start a game with even a basic concept already drawn up, rolling stats in order can be a pain...
Except that you can still use random elements with point buys, like rolling d6s to determine your primary stat, possibly your secondary and tertiary stats, even a dump stat, then build a character accordingly. You can even randomly roll a die to see what stat array you might use. So someone can still randomly make a character in point buy, but someone who knows what they want to make has no choice but to abide by the dice with roll 3d6. Meaning that both players can get what they want with one option, but only one players gets what they want with the other.
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*quote chain abreviated*I'm all about giving my players options. Even though I use a high stat generation method, if a player wanted to use lower stats, that's fine too.
Oddly none ever have, for some reason...
You'd be shocked by me then. I've baffled gamemasters many a time when I go with 3d6 down the line, instead of their 4d6 drop the lowest (reroll 1's and 2's) arrange to taste setup. But again, it may be due to my starting out with 2nd edition and thus being use to games on the lower end of the power curve. Heck, I avoided 3rd edition for a long time cause I thought it made the players too powerful too quickly.
I don't think power levels really make much difference on encouraging or discouraging roleplay. I have noticed that extremes in either direction attract those valuing tactics over roleplay. Either can be completely clever and obnoxious. The minimalists were usually the most prideful. The Balloonists in Traveller were the worst. The Ubers at least weren't usually snide about it. I have enjoyed the gamut. I have been bored to tears by the gamut as well. I do not adhere to the tenets of the Cult of Optimalization, so my ideas may be suspect.
IF you want some good randomness for your players.
as the GM make up a stat array that all players will use.
Have them roll to see which number goes to which stat.
Now you have the randomness of not knowing your stats beforehand, not being able to customize them, and still have the safety that you wont be left behind because of poor rolls.
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This may sound odd, but I'm actually a big fan of the Harrowing stat generation method from Wayfinder 5. My best friend and I use it exclusively for our home games, usually with a 16 card draw. We also add a rule where we allow a single, one-time swap of any two stats. We find it regularly produces viable characters, without all the risks of straight stat rolling, that forces you to really think about how best to use your stats, while still allowing for player choice.
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Except that you can still use random elements with point buys, like rolling d6s to determine your primary stat, possibly your secondary and tertiary stats, even a dump stat, then build a character accordingly. You can even randomly roll a die to see what stat array you might use. So someone can still randomly make a character in point buy, but someone who knows what they want to make has no choice but to abide by the dice with roll 3d6. Meaning that both players can get what they want with one option, but only one players gets what they want with the other.I think it's about how you develop your character concept and how much control over that concept you like to have.
If you enjoy using random elements to get your creative juices flowing, and aren't set on any particular kind of character, rolling stats in order is great!
However if you start a game with even a basic concept already drawn up, rolling stats in order can be a pain...
Sure, you can find ways to introduce optional randomness into character creation. But then you're really just accounting for the fact that some players really want to roll their stats in order and others really want point buy.
Gods, I can't imagine the old days with 3d6 straight down. Okay you're character has...6, 11, 8, 8, 9, 14. Congratulations you can make a half-decent bard or sorcerer or oracle and not much else.
Well, we just rolled our stats and then we picked the concept, not the other way around. All in all, making a character just wasn't anywhere as an important part of the game as it is now (to many). And the randomness forced you to try different classes - what can I play with these stats? I'm sure it sounds strange to the legions of entitled today, but limitations can be liberating.
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As Razcar said, it wasn't as bad as you might think. You rolled, and then looking at your rolls you decided what you're doing. And while it was unlikely you'd get a bunch of really great rolls, it was equally unlikely you'd get a bunch of really bad rolls. Although sometimes you did end up making a fighter simply because 9 strength was your best stat. Which just meant you the player had to pay more attention to contribute. 9's weren't bad, they just weren't exceptional. It was perfectly middle of the road. No bonuses, no penalties. So you're not Ragnar the Mountain Crusher. You're equally not Timmy, who's incapable of snapping a toothpick in half.
Well, no penalty unless you were a wizard (sorry, no sorcerer in 2nd edition). In which case you might be limited to level 1-3 spells. Yet again, that merely meant you had to be more creative with what you had.
2nd edition characters overall had less power. Then again so did the monsters. And there was less dependency on having high attributes (although they helped). Unless you were a martial type, it didn't matter if you have 14 con or 32 con. You still were only getting an extra +2 hit points per level.
The difference in damage output between a fighter with 9 strength and one with 18 strength felt huge at low levels, but by higher levels it wasn't that big of a deal. It's only 2 points of additional damage. Now, a fighter with 18/00 strength was more meaningful. That's +6 damage per melee attack. And you needed a 17 strength before you started getting a to-hit bonus (capped at +3 with 18/00 str)
Oh, and while there were ways to increase attributes after character creation, they were rare. They also had diminishing returns. Getting an attribute (especially Str) to 19 was difficult. Getting one to 20 or beyond, highly unlikely. "Wait," you say "What about just casting wish repeatedly to raise attributes?" That was a possibility. But not a good one. First of all, doing so would give you -3 str and debilitively weaken you for 2d4 days. Next, every time you cast Wish you aged five years.
How much of your character's natural life span did you have left by this point? After all, every time you cast Haste the recipient aged a year over the duration of the spell. And with each Wish costing five years of life, to reach an attribute of 20 might cost you 50 years or more of lifespan.
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20 point buy is the one right way to generate stats.I believe it's pronounced "BADWRONGFUN", sir.
@OP: I too would actually advice you to stick to some sort of point-buy as an early DM. Players often seem to like 20 or 25, any lower and some feel like ceritan classes do suffer (you could still use lower, talk to your players about it). But if you and your players would like to roll for stats, go ahead. Most rolling methods won't allow anything broken either (with the exception of cheaters or the few really lucky people)
I know one person who when rolling attributes rarely rolls less then 15 regardless of rolling method. It's really odd to watch. He'll use other dice, even reroll using your dice if you insist due to thinking he's cheating somehow. He legitimately rolls that high fairly often. One time when I suspected he'd fudged his rolls when making them at home (he had four 16's) I had him reroll attributes in front of me. He rolled five 18's. O.o