Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Norfolk
|
I have a table planned that has 6 signed up players and 2 waitlisted. One of the signed up players has played it before and wants to burn a GM credit to replay. Can I still tell him not to play so the other players have a chance to play it for the first time?
Also, when do GM stars reset?
|
|
GM stars only reset if you have an Expanded Narrative boon for the current season, so whenever you acquire the boon for a given season and fulfill the GMing requirements on it.
I'd suggest telling the player who wants to replay about the situation and asking if he'd step down willingly. Most people are pretty understanding about these sorts of situations.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Norfolk
|
I'm thinking he won't. His exact wording was "Are you going to make me burn a GM star to play tonight?"
But do the stars reset at the end of the year? He hasn't run a game at all this year, and he does not attend Cons so I am pretty sure he doesn't have the narrative boon.
|
|
With three stars, you have three replay opportunities. The opportunities do not expire, but once used, they do not automatically refresh. When you gain another star, you add one more replay opportunity. The Expanded Narrative boon allows you to refresh your replay opportunities up to your current number of GM stars
|
|
Well would have to turn away someone. If the player/GM isn't backing down to let someone who hasn't played it before give it a shot, then he's being a jerk (refraining from using more colourful language that would express actual feelings on the matter). See if he's willing to GM the game so you can split up the players, if he hasn't GM'd it before, he could apply the chronicle with the character he would have played it with; if he has GM'd it before, he can still use his GM star replay.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Page 20 of Guild Guide:
If you have already played a scenario and wish to
replay to help make a table legal, you must inform the
GM that you have already played the scenario. Some
GMs may not be comfortable running an adventure
for players who have foreknowledge of what is to come.
If your GM is not comfortable with you replaying a
scenario, the GM has the right to deny players the
opportunity to replay a scenario for any reason. All
GMs are encouraged to be as flexible as possible when
replay is the only option that allows them to seat the
minimum legal number of players at a game table.
|
|
This can certainly be a hard situation to deal with. The point of PFS is to allow players to well, play. But, we also have a responsibility to the three tenets with Cooperation being the most important IMHO. As has been said, first ask the player if they are willing to step away from the table so the other player can have some fun as well. If that does not work, consider adding another table of the event. If you can find one more person to GM, that makes a table of four players and a table of three (plus a pregen "ghost") and everyone is happy. If not, the final straw might be to inform said player they are being removed from the table for the sake of the local community. Another possibility would be if there are other players who are not in attendance that can play said scenario for credit, schedule it again at the next available event so the waist-listed player and those not in attendance can play. If you go the way of kicking the replayer, I would share that information with the local community including the Venture-Captain and perhaps the RVC. If the community knows what is happening and why, it can go a long way towards keeping bad feelings to a minimum and helps prevent people from hearing one side of the story and painting you out as a tyrannical organizer.
As Protoman quoted, its up to the GM, and by extension the organizer to allow/deny replay. Of course you also have to temper that with an understanding of the attitudes involved. Technically speaking someone burning GM stars to reply are just as legal a player as one who never played. I tend to use these types of situations to evaluate the temperament of my players and who is selfish and who wants to support the community. That can be very useful information moving forward with organizational activities.
|
I'm thinking he won't. His exact wording was "Are you going to make me burn a GM star to play tonight?"
I don't understand this comment. Is he asking if you will let him play without using his star replay? Or is he expressing his eagerness to play in a humorous way?
Anyway, have you asked if he would be willing to GM a second table? It's not much prep time but if he's already played it he should have a general idea of how it runs.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You clearly have a signup mechanism for a reason, why should this person be penalized or targeted when they've followed all of the relevant rules and just want to have fun like anyone else?
First come-first serve is a mechanism most of us use for signups, but it is not always the most fair way to manage tables. It is the reason why Paizo goes to a lottery system for PaizoCon. Not everyone can be sitting by their computer the minute an event goes live and by the time they can get there it could be booked solid. So this is where local organizers have to balance the needs of the entire community. Its not unreasonable to ask someone who is on replay to vacate their seat for someone who has never played it before. Or it could be. Too much depends on the dynamic of the players involved and community attitudes. There is no "right" answer to this because none of us know the players involved like the OP does. All we can do is make suggestions that may help, but we should stop short of making definitive statements regarding what is right/wrong.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Norfolk
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Luckily fair minds prevailed and he *kindly* stepped aside with an offer to play a scenario he definitely hasn't played in our next months scheduling :)
You guys are awesome. Thanks a bunch. It was a difficult call and I appreciate everyones feedback.
|
|
I don't think the 'replay a scenario' rule quoted from p.20 really applies in this case. That's for people replaying for no credit. The whole point of the star replays was to reward GMs for helping out, to just kick one when he wants to sit at the other side of the table and properly followed the sign-up procedures is not, in my opinion, appropriate. It doesn't sound like it in this case, but a lot of GMs I know rarely get to play, and often drop a game they were to play in so that they can run a table that wouldn't otherwise go off. I can't imagine telling one of them "Nah, it doesn't matter that you are the one who is legitimately scheduled to play, nor that you rarely get to play because you're too busy helping us, you've played this one already and someone else hasn't, so too bad!". It sucks to turn away people, and sometimes you can prevent it, but sometimes you can't. You clearly have a signup mechanism for a reason, why should this person be penalized or targeted when they've followed all of the relevant rules and just want to have fun like anyone else?
The "Some GMs may not be comfortable running an adventure for players who have foreknowledge of what is to come" part is still applicable whether it's played with a GM Star replay or not. Plus the whole thing is more of a courtesy thing and the text in the Guild Guide provide a rules backing in case the situation ever gets ugly and a hard decision needs to get made.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Norfolk
|
No, our standing policy is that if you have played and we can fire a legal table without them then the GM has discretion over whether he will allow a player to replay. But I had never had a player pull the star before. I wasn't sure if there was a standard protocol in situations like this.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
|
A replay is a replay, the reasoning for disallowing it is the same:
"Some GMs may not be comfortable running an adventure for players who have foreknowledge of what is to come."
The thing is, the foreknowledge isn't the actual reason for discomfort here. It sounds like the discomfort is actually that he wants to replay a scenario while someone else is waiting to play it for the first time. Using a rule intended for a different issue to deny the replayer doesn't sound entirely fair to me.
---
I'm still unclear on how this came to happen in the first place. Did you schedule a table, he signed on, and only later did you actually pick a scenario? Or did you pick a scenario, and he signed on and was ready to spend a GM star to play it?
GM stars are fairly precious. It's something you tend to spend only on specific scenarios you really want to replay, not just "I wanna play but there's nothing else on".
Or in the case that this player had already claimed a seat at the table before the scenario was chosen - why select a scenario that one of the signed-up players has already played?
We ran into planning difficulties too, until one of our people came up with the wonderful session tracker as a way to quickly select scenarios that a group of people can all still play.
|
I don't think the 'replay a scenario' rule quoted from p.20 really applies in this case. That's for people replaying for no credit. The whole point of the star replays was to reward GMs for helping out, to just kick one when he wants to sit at the other side of the table and properly followed the sign-up procedures is not, in my opinion, appropriate. It doesn't sound like it in this case, but a lot of GMs I know rarely get to play, and often drop a game they were to play in so that they can run a table that wouldn't otherwise go off. I can't imagine telling one of them "Nah, it doesn't matter that you are the one who is legitimately scheduled to play, nor that you rarely get to play because you're too busy helping us, you've played this one already and someone else hasn't, so too bad!". It sucks to turn away people, and sometimes you can prevent it, but sometimes you can't. You clearly have a signup mechanism for a reason, why should this person be penalized or targeted when they've followed all of the relevant rules and just want to have fun like anyone else?
The rule is for all forms of replay, and for if a GM or someone who has already prepped the scenario is playing with info.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is making another table not an option?
Last time he had a situation like this, my spouse Ironmaned it and ran two tables of 4 simultaneously.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
Best solution would be another GM to run two tables, but to be honest replay with a 7 person table is hardly ideal. Fortunately the player saw reason ^^
Regarding replay, I have seen a couple of players make very questionable choices when it comes to replaying a scenario... to be honest, not a great feeling for the GM.
|
|
I don't think the 'replay a scenario' rule quoted from p.20 really applies in this case. That's for people replaying for no credit. The whole point of the star replays was to reward GMs for helping out, to just kick one when he wants to sit at the other side of the table and properly followed the sign-up procedures is not, in my opinion, appropriate. It doesn't sound like it in this case, but a lot of GMs I know rarely get to play, and often drop a game they were to play in so that they can run a table that wouldn't otherwise go off. I can't imagine telling one of them "Nah, it doesn't matter that you are the one who is legitimately scheduled to play, nor that you rarely get to play because you're too busy helping us, you've played this one already and someone else hasn't, so too bad!". It sucks to turn away people, and sometimes you can prevent it, but sometimes you can't. You clearly have a signup mechanism for a reason, why should this person be penalized or targeted when they've followed all of the relevant rules and just want to have fun like anyone else?The "Some GMs may not be comfortable running an adventure for players who have foreknowledge of what is to come" part is still applicable whether it's played with a GM Star replay or not. Plus the whole thing is more of a courtesy thing and the text in the Guild Guide provide a rules backing in case the situation ever gets ugly and a hard decision needs to get made.
Protoman is 100% correct on this one. Stars or no stars, the choice to allow a player to replay a scenario is the GM's alone.
|
I don't know what kind of diplomacy Shannon managed to use, but if a player gave me that kind of entitled attitude without any sympathy of other players, I'd consider that a jerk move, and would tell them they aren't welcome to play at my table.
No player should feel like they can force a GM into a difficult position like that.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've come across the situation multiple times where I know a player has already played a scenario (especially for Core/Normal mode crossover stuff). I nicely ask them if they're okay with being waitlisted to allow players who haven't played the scenario to come ahead of them. I don't think I've ever had anyone say "No". But, if if they insisted they wanted to play, then I'd probably let them with the advice to let the mystery of the scenario remain for the other players to discover. If I were to discover a player that broke the mystery (deliberately or otherwise) then I would likely not allow them to join any future table (which is easy for online games, but a bit more difficult for physical tables).
|
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Devil's Advocate Time. Am I alone in thinking that the guy who signed up early to play and loved this adventure enough that he was willing to burn a star to replay it is not a jerk?
Isn't that what stars are for? To allow GMs to have a few precious replays? I know that I'm saving my first GM star replay to be able to do Overflow Archives with my ditzy undine, Nixie. I'm really looking forward to it. I would hate to be thought of as a jerk if I RSVPed for a table, told the manager in advance that I'm burning a replay, and then got turned away.
The fact that this guy chose not to play after Shannon talked with him showed that he was not a jerk after all.
I am a heavy duty GM locally. I frequently give up my chance to play a scenario through first so that others can, or give up my opportunity to play because they need another GM to take pressure off the waitlist. I've done this so often that I think if I told my local Venture Agent that I wanted to burn a star to replay an adventure that I loved, he'd make it happen for me.
It's good to have policies in place, but we should remember that with every new scenario, someone has to GM it first so that others can play. If they then want to play it at a later time, that's one of the accomodations that we should be willing to make if we can.
Hmm
|
|
The conversation is not about somebody that GMed first and now wants to play. It's about somebody that played first and now wants to take up the seat (with a replay) from a newer player who has not yet had the opportunity to play.
Regardless, I'd support a decision to let the replayer go home 100% of the time. I'm glad to hear that this situation resolved itself on its own without having to have that conversation.
|
I'm thinking he won't. His exact wording was "Are you going to make me burn a GM star to play tonight
Though this situation resolved itself, it is not quite as Nosig and Hmm remember... Per Shannon, it seems he was surprised he needed to burn a replay to play it.
Still, I personally would always step down for people who are not replaying, personally. As an organizer, I would suggest (or ask) that the player either step down, or even better, step up and GM for the game day. After all, if he has played it, he could prep and run it!
|
|
Still, I personally would always step down for people who are not replaying, personally. As an organizer, I would suggest (or ask) that the player either step down, or even better, step up and GM for the game day. After all, if he has played it, he could prep and run it!
Hopefully not 'cold', though.
We had two tables for 'Archives' at a local convention last year, and bless our GM (we had two full tables of *sign up* plus wait-listed folks) he stepped up because he'd played it before so at least had a better idea of what was going on.
Even with that play knowledge, though, there were some rough spots as we used decidedly creative methods to handle some things, and a couple of breaks were had.
EDIT: We had a GM call off for RL reasons, thus the extra table the coordinator had to figure out...
|
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
|
I'm thinking he won't. His exact wording was "Are you going to make me burn a GM star to play tonightThough this situation resolved itself, it is not quite as Nosig and Hmm remember... Per Shannon, it seems he was surprised he needed to burn a replay to play it.
Still, I personally would always step down for people who are not replaying, personally. As an organizer, I would suggest (or ask) that the player either step down, or even better, step up and GM for the game day. After all, if he has played it, he could prep and run it!
Jack that does make sense. Thanks for the explanation.
Hmm
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Norfolk
|
A replay is a replay, the reasoning for disallowing it is the same:
"Some GMs may not be comfortable running an adventure for players who have foreknowledge of what is to come."The thing is, the foreknowledge isn't the actual reason for discomfort here. It sounds like the discomfort is actually that he wants to replay a scenario while someone else is waiting to play it for the first time. Using a rule intended for a different issue to deny the replayer doesn't sound entirely fair to me.
---
I'm still unclear on how this came to happen in the first place. Did you schedule a table, he signed on, and only later did you actually pick a scenario? Or did you pick a scenario, and he signed on and was ready to spend a GM star to play it?
GM stars are fairly precious. It's something you tend to spend only on specific scenarios you really want to replay, not just "I wanna play but there's nothing else on".
Or in the case that this player had already claimed a seat at the table before the scenario was chosen - why select a scenario that one of the signed-up players has already played?
We ran into planning difficulties too, until one of our people came up with the wonderful session tracker as a way to quickly select scenarios that a group of people can all still play.
No, I schedule a month at a time. When I open the session it already has a scenario picked for it. I try to alternate between older and newer scenarios. He signed on knowing he had played it and thought to ask before showing up since I had 2 people waitlisted for the game.
This particular player is unable to make it to other game locations so he will sign up for everything at this one site. Oftentimes he won't remember that he's played a scenario until during or after the first combat.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Norfolk
|
They are real loosy goosey with the replay rules at that store. I try to remind them when I stop by, but hasn't stuck.
Brad - I can honestly say I am not loosey goosey with the replay rules. If you have played it and I don't NEED you at my table to fire I will ask you to leave. This particular situation had a GM star thrown in and a player who is not allowed to GM anymore which is why I couldn't split the tables.
|
The fact that the guide says, "If your GM is not comfortable with you replaying a scenario, the GM has the right to deny players the
opportunity to replay a scenario for any reason." and you can burn a star to replay a beloved scenario can cause strife no matter what at the rules goes both ways.
This is up to a VO / store organizer to set the policy and apply it with consistency but with a touch of diplomacy.
There isn't a perfect answer that you can apply across all venues. Shannon you did well to fix the issue I think but it does set up an a question that just needs to be explained / clarified across the stores in the area.
I am personally under the opinion the replay needs to go away completely in the campaign. I don't consider "CORE" as replay as the PC's can't cross streams for the most part but we need to be mindful of people who play both campaign actively.
I would have ask the replaying player to withdraw nicely and if needed not giving him the choice.
I would suggest talk with Joe and add the verbiage to the warhorn to clarify the issue in the future.
That is my 2-cents.