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I don't know how to answer your first question without being given an example.
Eidolons do not automatically get IUS, most often they get Natural Attacks.
For the Evolutions it helps if you link the full and correct text.
The eidolon's body becomes shadowy and more indistinct. This shadow form grants the eidolon constant concealment (20% miss chance), and its melee attacks affect incorporeal creatures as if it had the ghost touch weapon property. The eidolon's melee attacks deal only half damage to corporeal creatures.
In any condition of illumination other than bright light, the eidolon disappears into the shadows, giving it concealment (20% miss chance). If it has the shadow form evolution, it instead gains total concealment (50% miss chance). The eidolon can suspend or resume this ability as a free action.
For Shadow Blend I don't think the intent was to also turn off the Shadow Form, just knock the concealment down to 20% incase an Ally needs to to touch them.
You are looking for a TON of benefits for free here.
So answers:
No, you don't get improved unarmed strikes automatically. You have to spend a feat like everyone else. Natural attacks and unarmed attacks are completely different systems.
No, you don't get a free, automatic merchant service. That is way too good of a benefit for a class feature that already dominates. You want to look at the occultist with that one ability where they can get minor outsiders to act as their errand boys. Anyway, the plane is just a demiplane type deal where the eidolon is stored if I remember right.
Werewolves are bipeds, and since I presume where this is going- can't get pounce. Quadrupeds can get pounce, but their forelegs can't work as hands. You would need the arms evolution, and then you would basically end up with a Wolf centaur thing.
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could it be read as the eidolon can turn on and off the whole shadow ability at will?I don't know how to answer your first question without being given an example.
Eidolons do not automatically get IUS, most often they get Natural Attacks.
For the Evolutions it helps if you link the full and correct text.
The eidolon's body becomes shadowy and more indistinct. This shadow form grants the eidolon constant concealment (20% miss chance), and its melee attacks affect incorporeal creatures as if it had the ghost touch weapon property. The eidolon's melee attacks deal only half damage to corporeal creatures.
In any condition of illumination other than bright light, the eidolon disappears into the shadows, giving it concealment (20% miss chance). If it has the shadow form evolution, it instead gains total concealment (50% miss chance). The eidolon can suspend or resume this ability as a free action.For Shadow Blend I don't think the intent was to also turn off the Shadow Form, just knock the concealment down to 20% incase an Ally needs to to touch them.
No, which is what I just said.
so is there an equivalent that my eidolon can pick up so he can take dragon style?
So answers:No, you don't get improved unarmed strikes automatically. You have to spend a feat like everyone else. Natural attacks and unarmed attacks are completely different systems.
Again- spend a feat on improved unarmed strike.
Anything can make a unarmed strike, if it felt like it. But those unarmed strikes are nonlethal, and draw an AoO. Improved unarmed strike is a feat that removes both of those disadvantages. Thus why it is called 'improved' unarmed strike.
So you just need to spend feats.
are you saying that every time my dm has an animalor creature attack me with its natural attack i get an AoO?
and every time i almost died that i shouldn't have because claws and teeth are nonlethal?..... >.> i hope you know i am asking about its use for an eidolon which uses natural attacks (i think *claws and teeth*) not the humanoid summoner with soft squishy fists.
ENTIRELY different systems. I mean come on- that would make animals useless.
No, when we talk about unarmed strike, we are talking about punches and kicks and such. Body parts that are hardly designed to do damage originally, unlike a mouth full of fangs. The nonlethal and AoO is for when the fighter gets disarmed, and decides to just take a swing at the guy- obviously, that isn't going to go too well unless he is trained to fight without weapons (ie- Improved unarmed strike).
So, run down of the systems
Unarmed strikes
- punches, kicks, headbutts, etc.
- gets iteratives like a normal weapon; can do TWF
- can benefit from spells meant for natural attacks, and maybe for regular weapons (forget the specifics there for nonmonks)
- if you don't have improved unarmed strike, they are nonlethal and draw AoOs
Natural attacks
- bites, claws, horns, etc.
- DO NOT GET ITERATIVES. But in turn, most natural attacks hit at full BAB and do full str/power attack damage, and you can use as many natural weapons you possess (as long as you keep too the rule that each limb can only be used for 1 kind of attack in a round). Eidolons are the poster children of this with bite/claw/claw/claw/claw/claw/claw/claw when you get multiple arms with evos. No need to hassle with TWF and such- you just look for ways to get more attacks
- only affected by spells meant for natural weapons (excluding stuff that just affects attacks in general, like bardic performances).
- there are rules for primary/secondary natural attacks. Largely, unless you are mixing actual weapons or unarmed strikes into your routine, you will generally have all your natural attacks be primary (bites, claws, gore, talons). So don't worry about it too much.
alright, in several outdated guides i could find they suggest that a pouncing or charging eidolon should take dragon style which calls for Improved Unarmed Strike which is a humanoid feat.
Not particularly. When dealing with intelligent creatures (ie- not animal companions), you can generally take whatever feat you qualify for (with the obvious logical addendum that it should be physically able to do the feat- ie- no snakes taking great sword proficiency).
Unarmed strikes can be performed with the hands, or with the feet, headbutt, booty bump, etc. So you could certainly go all kungfu panda with unarmed strikes.
I am not sure how well you would like taking dragon style though. The central problem is that you need feral combat training in order to apply unarmed strike feats to natural attacks. The next problem is that it only applies to a single kind of natural attack, and you can only take the feat once.
So, if you are not going with a spider thing with dozens of arms/claws (which goes a LONG way from the werewolf you wanted), then you are likely only going to see it used on one or two attacks, typically. It is a strategy that works best when you minmax and don't care about what the end result looks like.
There is the other problem that you need to take four different feats in order to get this running, which means you are devoting all your feats until level 9 (level 11, if you grab power attack, so that you can be at least basic at melee). And until that point, you see no benefit from these feats. At all. Your natural attacks are far better for you than unarmed strikes (which need TWF to compete, which would take more feats), and everything else rests upon unarmed strikes until you get feral combat training.
Natural attacks do not use TWF. There is no reason to take this feat on most eidolons.
A creature with natural attacks can make one attack for each primary natural attack, without penalty, on a full attack. Natural attacks labeled as secondary take a -5 to hit penalty and apply only 1/2 the strength bonus to damage.
IUS does have a use on eidolons. If you plan on using the Grab evolution, IUS is a prereq for Improved Grapple. Mostly useful for constrict builds.
Natural attacks do not use TWF. There is no reason to take this feat on most eidolons.
A creature with natural attacks can make one attack for each primary natural attack, without penalty, on a full attack. Natural attacks labeled as secondary take a -5 to hit penalty and apply only 1/2 the strength bonus to damage.
IUS does have a use on eidolons. If you plan on using the Grab evolution, IUS is a prereq for Improved Grapple. Mostly useful for constrict builds.
IUS is still a poor choice for constrict builds; Dirty Fighting meets the pre-req while providing an actual benefit.
IUS is still a poor choice for constrict builds; Dirty Fighting meets the pre-req while providing an actual benefit.Natural attacks do not use TWF. There is no reason to take this feat on most eidolons.
A creature with natural attacks can make one attack for each primary natural attack, without penalty, on a full attack. Natural attacks labeled as secondary take a -5 to hit penalty and apply only 1/2 the strength bonus to damage.
IUS does have a use on eidolons. If you plan on using the Grab evolution, IUS is a prereq for Improved Grapple. Mostly useful for constrict builds.
Grab attacks don't provoke, they do gain the +2 benefit from Improved Grapple, which requires IUS.
Improved Grapple is, in turn, a prereq for other feats a constricting eidolon may find useful. Kraken Style, for example.
Here's the laydown.
Everything can make unarmed strikes.
If your eidolon had bite and 2 claws. bab 1 and str 18.
Your full attack is
Bite +5 for 1d6+4, claw +5 for 1d6+4 and claw +5 for 1d6+4
if you wanted to use your unarmed strikes that provoke and deal non-lethal your full attack would be.
unarmed strike +5 for 1d3+4, bite +0 for 1d6+2, claw +0 for 1d6+2 and claw +0 for 1d6+2.
it would be this since you're using a "weapon" and this makes all your natural attack become secondary.
Now lets move up to 6 BAB, still 18 str, but also with IUS feat
Your full attack is
Bite +10 for 1d6+4, claw +10 for 1d6+4 and claw +10 for 1d6+4
OR
unarmed strike +10 for 1d3+4, unarmed strike +5 for 1d3+4, bite +5 for 1d6+2, claw +5 for 1d6+2 and claw +5 for 1d6+2.
If you took TWF then it could be
Bite +10 for 1d6+4, claw +10 for 1d6+4 and claw +10 for 1d6+4
OR
unarmed strike +8 for 1d3+4, unarmed strike +8 for 1d3+2, unarmed strike +3 for 1d3+4, bite +5 for 1d6+2, claw +5 for 1d6+2 and claw +5 for 1d6+2.
When it's sent back it drops whatever it had.
Just wondering, is this RAW for the APG summoner now? Cause back in the day i remember this wasnt said and i used to just send everything back with it.
I wonder if they made a FAQ for APG with this or something.
PS: And i do mean APG XD, i pretend they never launched any other kind of "core" summoner outside the first one.
If your eidolon can stand on two feet and can walk on two feet but has to run on all four limbs, what is it biped or quadruped a mix of the two?
I have some examples but i don't know how to make links. How do you make clickable links?Does an eidolon count as having improved unarmed strike? Its a prerequisite for dragon style.
I think of some more questions.
1. It is what it is as defined by base form. If you add two more legs to a biped, it's still a biped base form.
2. No it does not. Improved Unarmed Strike is a specific feat. Creatures with natural weapons, like eidolons don't have the improved unarked strike feat. They have natural weapons... the two are not the same. You can however spend an eidlon's feat slot on it. Note that such expenditures are permanent short of retraining.
what feats would you guys suggest for a biped eidolon and for a quadruped eidolon.
does anyone know where i can find a summoner/eidolon guide that has been made in the last year and therefore up to date? i have read like 6 all before 2014.
I tend to go with a cornugon smash (when you power attack, you can get a free action intimidation attempt) followed up hurtful (can use a swift action to do an attack against an enemies... well, basically one you intimidate).
Combined, it does nice debuffing and who doesn't love an extra attack in return for an action you aren't using. It is a favorite of all martials, since it lets you get two attacks in even when you are not full attacking. It also has the advantage of having simple parts tht each benefit you at each step along the way (power attack for damage, cornugon smash for debuff, hurtful for extra attack).
Honestly, you probably get more from cornugon+hurtful than dragon style outside of precise minmaxing (since you are comparing 1/2 str on a type of natural attack vs. whole str+powerattack+natural attack damage+enhancement bonus+whatever buffs).
The cornugon+hurtful combo is also a cornerstone of a build where you go with a single natural weapon, but use a bunch of methods to get it to hit a bunch of times (hurtful, haste, eidolon's multiattack). Which is its own kind of nice flavor (although that tends to be more hulk SMASH with slam attacks or a big old bite, rather than the style from werewolves).
EDIT- as a final note- POWER ATTACK IS NOT A TRAP FOR NATURAL ATTACKS. No matter what you think of it in general, the primary advantage of nautral attacks is that all of the good ones hit at full BAB every time. So you don't have to worry about accuracy as much like you would with iteratives. So it is well worth the relatively small chance in order to grab large amounts of damage.
All the old guides should still be quite good for the APG summoner.
One of my GMs has a campaign ruling that ALL eidolons are creations of the Summoner's Id (or is it Ego) manifesting in the world. Summon Monster works on the same line. Nature' ally can only get you the local terrain list. Apparently, someone kept summoning polar bears...
All the old guides should still be quite good for the APG summoner.
That is true.
Eidolons don't really have too many 'unique' abilities. It is mostly general monster defenses and abilities. Little to make an entire build around like you would see with sneak attack (where you would aim for flanking and feints). In fact, it sometimes removes the need for certain feats (such as the trip ability).
So any feats appropriate for a bruiser, with maybe some skill stuff (since they can just a +8 in a skill- more than enough to justify some skill monkey-ness... while being an actual monkey).
That and the eidolon hasn't changed at all. I'm not aware of new evolutions for the eidolon in new books
so who takes Resilient Eidolon the summoner or the eidolon?
It says 'your eidolon', which implies that the eidiolon is a second party to this. Ergo, summoner. Also, the game doesn't care if the eidolon falls asleep- it only matters that the summoner fell asleep.
cool thanks. i think that it is worth one of my feat slots.
fair enough. Summoners often get targeted based off of the logic that they are squishier weak points for the eidolon, they are spell casters, and even if the eidolon is killed they can just start sending out their standard action summon spells.
So you are more than justified in making sure that the party doesn't lose two members when you are knocked out.
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Werewolves are bipeds, and since I presume where this is going- can't get pounce. Quadrupeds can get pounce, but their forelegs can't work as hands. You would need the arms evolution, and then you would basically end up with a Wolf centaur thing.
A flexible GM might allow you to have a quadrupedal eidolon with the arms evolution and say that instead of gaining a new set of arms the eidolon gains the option to also use its front legs as arms.
The only benefit to doing so is flavour. There is no mechanical benefit compared to a wolf centaur thing, and in fact it is mechanically disadvantageous since for example you wouldn't have another set of limbs to put claws on.
You probably want Power Attack on your eidolon instead of Eldritch Claws. Once you give him a +1 amulet of Mighty Fists, all of his natural attacks will count as magic.
There is no reason to strength dump a summoner. A 14 starting Charisma is more than sufficient. Depending on your play style, you could go with a 16 starting strength and a long spear or go sword & board with a mithral breastplate and a mithral buckler. With Arcane Strike and a few buffs (which you already be taking) the summoner can contribute in melee without being an obvious target.
Hell, you could make the summoner a full on AC build. As is so frequently pointed in the AC build threads; if nobody can hit you, npc's will go find someone else to attack.