My First druid. Please help.


Advice

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ChaosTicket, if you want archery druid check out the Nature Fang archetype.
Have you checked out the druid guides?
The newest is by Prometheus and it includes a nice section on builds, including an archery build. Check it out here.


ChaosTicket wrote:

Ok we are playing very different games in play sessions if any you are asking why someone would use attacks, weapons and armor.

Some of the comments sound like youve never fought early battles against enemies armed with bows, reach weapons, and alchemist's fire.

Spells are just short of useless in the early game as you can only use them a finite number of times per ingame day, which is about one session.

Clearly you have a very different impression of the game, but I don't think a low level druid should just use spells. He has an animal companion, hopefully in barding with which he can contribute better then most martial characters at early levels. His own weapon attacks aren't important, his Tigers claws and bite are important.

That and most of my druids have spell focus conjuration and augment summoning as their first 2 feats. Summoned animals with summon natures ally can contribute for most of an encounter after a few levels with just 1 spells. A druid will have at least a couple of these at 1st level, and can easly do 2-3 an encounter by 4th or 5th level (assuming 3-4 encounters per day). But even where he needs to concerve resources at low levels, you still have a friggan tiger, or a bear, or a wolf buddy doing your fighting for you. Which makes your own weapon proficiency far less important.

A cleric needs to be a descent warrior because they have only so many spells early on. A druid comes with an extra good warrior free of charge, and can focus on building for the future. They don't need bows or reach weapons because they can sick their bear on the monster from across the field while maybe casting one spell for the encounter.

I think the issue here is you have failed to realize how an animal companion (if the right one is chosen) and the ability to spontaneously summon animals to fight for you extend the limited spell resources of a low level druid. They do. A lot. Personally mixing it up with a spear or whatever is unimportant not because we think low level casters can cast spells all day, but because the druid has other tools to cover that issue that isn't a sharp bit of metal or a pointy stick.


ChaosTicket wrote:

I dont think this is going anywhere by this point. You just dont think dying at early levels is possible, so I get suggestions to suicide a low AC Druid and animal.

Early on every character is a warrior just because having high AC, ranged and melee attacks are very important.

A Composite Longbow is more accurate, more powerful, and much lighter weight for ammunition than a Sling. Some people are only skimming this thread and somehow they get "I want to make a Druid specializing in archey Feats".

Out of all of this, someone mentioning Entangle is probably the most useful advice. I would have to warn other people in my group like that Samurai that always wants to charge, but it would be very useful.

Ok, I'll just do it because you seem unhappy when we ask questions that make sense

15 point build, usually used in most APs, though many consider 20 the standard, I went with the less powerful one to make a point

STR 14 + 2 Floating Human Bonus
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 7

Starting Gold Average = 70 GP

Hide Armor +4 AC 15GP
Heavy Wooden Shield +2 AC 7GP

Right now you AC is 10+4+2+1= 17 AC

You can have your sling loaded, draw it, attack for 1d4+3, then drop it, and on the next turn draw your Scimitar and attack for 1d6+3.
You can also use Short Spear, 1 handed, can be used with shield, damage 1d6+3 with 20 range, more than enough to throw 1-2 before engaging in melee.

17 AC at early level is more than enough. Yes, you don't have 22, but that's what you can afford right now.

You can potentially use to improve AC:

Ice Armor > functions like breastplate +6 AC, suddenly you have 19 AC, though it's kinda weak, and you have to track its HP, can be annoying. Read the spell.

Shillelagh > for your club instead of your scimitar if you need a bit more of base damage.

You're not a Fighter, that damage you're dealing is more than enough as a Druid. You have spells to enhance your armor, heal, battlefield control with Obscuring Mist.
You can even summon, though it's highly not recommended because they last 1 round.

15+7=22 GP and you still have 48 to buy weapons, ammunition.

Encumbrance? You have 16 STR, honestly, it shouldn't matter at all. You're already moving 20 ft (if human) because you're using Medium Armor. You can carry a lot without incurring in penalties.

It's all about the spells and how you move. As someone said, Entangle and kill them from afar.
Are bows important? They're nice to have, but wasting a feat or locking yourself into a race for something that you're gonna use a couple of levels, it's not worth it.

Plus to use a bow effectively you need DEX, which will hurt your Wildshape form.

EDIT= I didn't even talk about the Animal Companion, that's another +2 to Hit while flaking, another meatshield, possible Trip for free if Wolf.
If you take Domain (some people argue it's better at high levels) you get even more spells and diverse ones.


Letric nailed it. The reason I asked what you wanted to do later in the game is that you can gear your initial character towards that. The above build is perfect if you want to get into melee combat as a tiger later on. If, instead, you want to turn into a bat, vanish into the darkness, and rain bolts of lightning down on your opponents at level 5+, having a higher wisdom and Dex will benefit you more.

Example build:
Dwarf 15 point buy
STR 10
DEX 14
CON 12 + 2
INT 10
WIS 16 + 2
CHA 8 - 2

AC 18 with hide armor and a wooden shield

Now, at level 1 you can entangle twice a day with a DC 15 save, and your bear gets 3 attacks per round even before he gets big at level 4. At level 3 you start summoning aggressive thunderclouds or flaming spheres twice a day in addition to your entangles, and at level 5 you can now cast in bat form and rain called lightning down on your foes.

And that's just a blaster build with early entangle. If you want to go heavily into battlefield control, spell focus transmutation makes your entangles, sickening entanglements, obsidian flows, etc., that much more potent.


If i use a Druid, he/she will spend 90% of the time using a Sling because 2 spells out of 25 average round a day means a great deal of attack actions. I keep bringing this up because you are so dismissive of any of the early druid flaws I mention. Itll take months to get to level 5 for me.

I asked a more experienced player within my local group. He gave me some advice and helped me work things out.

Instead of thinking about the Druids flaws, focus on the animal companion as my player character. So Im looking up different animal companions like the Deinonychus.

By the way Ive heard there are ways to give any pet the Pounc ability, is that true? Also is the cost of magical enhancements on animal barding multiplied, or only the default price?


ChaosTicket wrote:
focus on the animal companion as my player character. So Im looking up different animal companions like the Deinonychus.

Yes. They carry you through low levels. I recommend bear because they scale well into high levels.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Just the base armor cost is multiplied, not the magical enhancement price.

At low levels, do you want to support your animal companion with ranged weapons, melee weapons, or spells?

One thing to note is your 5th level feat slot will almost guaranteed be Natural Spell, since it allows you to combine two of the main attributes of druids: spellcasting and wildshaping.

Essentially, your druid career will have two parts: Pre-Natural Spell and Post-Natural Spell. Ideally, your feat choices for both parts of your druid's career will mesh well together, but often, they focus on different aspects of being a druid. Pre-Natural Spell is often combat-oriented, and Post-Natural is often focused on spellcasting and/or wildshape optimization.

Are there any races that have racial proficiency with a reach weapon? If so, and you like that race, you might want to consider taking Combat Reflexes at 1st level and Power Attack at 3rd level.

Alternatively, if you want to use a ranged weapon, elves make good druids. Proficiency in longbow and shortbow is great, and you will probably have the highest Perception class in the party (high Wisdom combined with +2 racial bonus + Perception as a class skill). I've had fun combing Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and produce flame.

Taking Spell Focus conjuration and Augment Summoning at 1st and 3rd level isn't a bad build either.


ChaosTicket wrote:
If i use a Druid, he/she will spend 90% of the time using a Sling because 2 spells out of 25 average round a day means a great deal of attack actions.

25 rounds of combat a day? Non stop using RANGED weapons? What kind of game are you playing?

Usually combats don't last more than 10 rounds, and that's a really difficult one.
I don't get your obsession with ranged weapons. Ranged weapons are most of the time a bad choice if you don't have the feats.
You need at least Precise Shot Feat if you're gonna consistently use Ranged weapons, otherwise you'll have a permanent -4 to hit. Unless there are no melee guys on your party, in which case after 2 rounds you'll have a melee guy next to you and you can't use ranged weapons anymore, unless Attacks of Opportunity.

Best choice is as said before, use spears, slings or just wade into melee, you have the HP and AC to survive.
I don't get why so many rounds of combat, if you're playing some homebrew game with house rules, please let us know.
Most people assume that combat last 3-5 rounds and it's done. Also Wizards at low levels can 1 spell encounters (hello Sleep) and Fighters/Barbarian are doing pretty decent damage, we're talking a Barbarian doing 1d12+6 without rage.


I would recommend talking to your GM about what animal companions will naturally be available in your campaign, as not all scale equally. At first level, a boar is one of the most useful companions you can have, it has a huge natural armor bonus, is small, and has dex on top. Give it leather barding and you have AC of 20. Later on others tend to get better as they get multiple natural attacks. Deinonychus is great at 7 with 5 attacks and pounce.

For yourself, a shortspear is 1gp a piece, and is a short-range weapon with unlimited use, and solid damage. I would buy about 10 of them, as well as a sling and 10 bullets for if you need a long range. 1d4+2 isn't much to scoff at at first or second level, and at third level you get a lot more in the way of spells. 5/day can easily mean 5 encounters/day. If you have enough gold, I would load up on acid flasks. Cheaper than alch fire, less resisted, and doesn't hurt the environment much (forest fires are bad even if your class doesn't encourge protecting nature, as you are usually in the forest).

Also, creative use of orisons can be a good way to occupy time. Harass enemies with create water showers, use flare as a quick debuff you can spam. Buff up the fighter's one attack with guidance or his saves with resistance. Its not always a huge effect, but sometimes it is just enough to help turn the fight.

As for higher spells, good first level picks include entangle, faerie fire, and goodberry are decent picks. I recommend getting some scrolls of Faerie Fire, as well as an animal companion with scent for low levels. Invisible enemies are killers at low levels, and this is a nice AoE way to defeat them.

Scribe scroll might be a good first level feat, if you are allowed. Theme it as animal hide/thick leaves if flavor is a problem, but scrolls are dirt cheap and can save lives. Faerie Fire and Obscuring Mist are good picks for first, and healing ones are great for druids. If you get to higher levels, barkskin isn't a bad scroll, warp wood and lesser restoration are often better as scrolls, and the odd soften earth and stone/tree shape can help immensly.

If you ever get to high levels (ignore this part if you don't want higher level advice) here are some good

spell choices by level:
1) Entangle, Longstrider, Produce Flame, Expeditious Excavation, and Faerie Fire scale well enough to consider later. Eventually longstrider can be up constantly, and faerie fire will be nice to have v. High SR. Produce Flame is good for resource conservation once it lasts 3-5 minutes, as one will last a whole fight. Expeditious Excavation is really good because if successfully placed you can help combin flanking and higher ground with prone for an effective +7 for the melee against medium creatures. It also can provide concealment so can be used to help a rogue stealth.

2)Chill Metal, Barkskin, Heat Metal, and flaming sphere are good, and flame blade is a decent melee option. Chill Metal also makes a good scroll as it can be used for aquatic excavation. Heat Metal and Chill Metal will kill though, so be careful what you use them on (or prep resist energy)

3)Call Lightning, Greater Magic Fang, Aqueous Orb, Mad Monkeys, and Spike Growth are all pretty good, and daylight should be on hand every day, though buying oils of it should suffice (scrolls won't though, if you can read the scroll light is a better choice). Summon Nature's Ally also starts getting stronger as it lets you bring out hordes (stirge is especially nasty).

4)Air Walk, Spike Stones, Flame Strike, Summon IV, Dispel Magic, and Ice Storm are good, as is Echolocation. Especially that last one because you can put it on your bruiser companion while you are a bat for near immunity to invisibility.

That will cover most of a career. The picks are all good at the levels gained and later, so the first level options are most relevant to current concerns.


ChaosTicket wrote:

If i use a Druid, he/she will spend 90% of the time using a Sling because 2 spells out of 25 average round a day means a great deal of attack actions. I keep bringing this up because you are so dismissive of any of the early druid flaws I mention. Itll take months to get to level 5 for me.

I asked a more experienced player within my local group. He gave me some advice and helped me work things out.

Instead of thinking about the Druids flaws, focus on the animal companion as my player character. So Im looking up different animal companions like the Deinonychus.

By the way Ive heard there are ways to give any pet the Pounc ability, is that true? Also is the cost of magical enhancements on animal barding multiplied, or only the default price?

I really dont get where you get the "90%" from, most games i have played and most APs i have read have more like 75% melee based encounters, and even those starting in ranged will become melee within the first turn as the charges and double moves pass.

If anything there is a dissonance between what you think/experienced of the game and what we have experienced in our games. The best line of defense is the means of attack in early levels and ranged options are limited so in most cases you rush in and force them to use their actions pulling out melee weapons.

Hell my first ever character in the game was a Archer-Druid, personally i found it dull as i could hardly hit anything due to enemies taking cover, allies in the line of fire, allies in melee before i discovered precise shot etc.

Liberty's Edge

I currently play a Treesinger Druid right now, with a very limited, specific Wildshape list, animal companion options, and at 13th level, I am both capable of turning my plant companion and my treeshaped self into very potent melee fighters with a few buffs, and still have enough spell power to heal the party and cast damaging things like plant growth on a Thorny Entanglement - that I cast previously in the round... It took me a Year to get this level. I've a nasty, lovely weapon, that I never really even use. I never actually used it very much at levels 1-5. Depending on what sort of campaign you are going to be playing in, you should really work out the minute details of what you can do With your Companion and Spell List, since you can change those whenever you rest as needed.

Also. Every class has flaws. That's part of the fun of playing them, nothing should ever be perfect, that gets so boring, so fast. But, if you want something more combat only, they are right, a Hunter plays like a Fighter with 1-6lvl spells, and an Animal Companion.

And no, as far as I've learned, you cannot give Pounce to Every animal companion. That'd be very strange for some of them, wouldn't work in the least. You want something with that, you need to think a Cat. Though a lot of people do wolves, tigers/cats, boars, and bears. You might have more fun outside that little box.

Grand Lodge

If you have a couple of minutes pass by and check some samples on this guide

Prometeus Guide to Druid.


A better thing Ive read Treatmonk's guide about Druids. Basic thing is whether I want to make a Brute or Caster druid. Im not going to sacrifice spellcasting, but a brute would use more combat feats like Power attack.

Im really trying hard to find a Domain that is practical. I dont find much point in a specific slot spells that cannot be altered. Cleric in particular has alot of domains that give wizard spells which can only be used in those single domain slots per turn.

Storm Druid doesnt seem like a terrible Archetype. It cant use an animal companion, but being able to replace prepared spells with more uses of domain spells might be nice IF I can find spells that arent just Druid spells. That kind of makes the Storm Druid is weaker Theologian. Theologian can use Wizard spells like Fireball.

The Goliath Druid is very brutish. Turning into a giant by level 6 is quite nice. I had to reread this as it DOESNT limit you to just giants, but you cant be a plant or elemental and the only animals are dinosaurs/megafauna. If there is a strong flying dinosaur, then no problem.


ChaosTicket wrote:

A better thing Ive read Treatmonk's guide about Druids. Basic thing is whether I want to make a Brute or Caster druid. Im not going to sacrifice spellcasting, but a brute would use more combat feats like Power attack.

Im really trying hard to find a Domain that is practical. I dont find much point in a specific slot spells that cannot be altered. Cleric in particular has alot of domains that give wizard spells which can only be used in those single domain slots per turn.

Storm Druid doesnt seem like a terrible Archetype. It cant use an animal companion, but being able to replace prepared spells with more uses of domain spells might be nice IF I can find spells that arent just Druid spells. That kind of makes the Storm Druid is weaker Theologian. Theologian can use Wizard spells like Fireball.

The Goliath Druid is very brutish. Turning into a giant by level 6 is quite nice. I had to reread this as it DOESNT limit you to just giants, but you cant be a plant or elemental and the only animals are dinosaurs/megafauna. If there is a strong flying dinosaur, then no problem.

Domains mostly exist as options if you don't like managing 2 turns for the price of one.

Goliath Druid is awesome and gets around not having a reach weapon (though taking an exotic reach weapon like fauchard could be fun). For dinosaur utility, pteradon/pteradactyl takes care of most out of combat situations, but I'm not sure about a good maneuverability dino. At low levels, a medium dino companion can be enlarged to a greater effect than yourself (spinosaurus is especially good here), and later a large velociraptor is a terrifying friend to have pouncing into melee with you.


ChaosTicket wrote:

A better thing Ive read Treatmonk's guide about Druids. Basic thing is whether I want to make a Brute or Caster druid. Im not going to sacrifice spellcasting, but a brute would use more combat feats like Power attack.

Im really trying hard to find a Domain that is practical. I dont find much point in a specific slot spells that cannot be altered. Cleric in particular has alot of domains that give wizard spells which can only be used in those single domain slots per turn.

Storm Druid doesnt seem like a terrible Archetype. It cant use an animal companion, but being able to replace prepared spells with more uses of domain spells might be nice IF I can find spells that arent just Druid spells. That kind of makes the Storm Druid is weaker Theologian. Theologian can use Wizard spells like Fireball.

The Goliath Druid is very brutish. Turning into a giant by level 6 is quite nice. I had to reread this as it DOESNT limit you to just giants, but you cant be a plant or elemental and the only animals are dinosaurs/megafauna. If there is a strong flying dinosaur, then no problem.

It's a good guide, but I believe he under estimates the ability to do both well.

Always go animal companion. Domain is good way to F-up the early game you seem to really care about. T-monk guides assume a majority of time at far higher level than you have been talking about.


An animal companion at low levels and whirlwinds and or grappling at mid levels has served me well in the past. I took a level of Monk at 9th level since IUS and Improved Grapple as bonus feats made it easy to get into Greater Grapple. Wild Armor is probably better than Wis bonus to AC in most ways, but the 0gp cost and higher touch AC can be nice if you have a friendly caster to keep Mage Armor on you.

That PC ended up at around Monk 1 / Druid 18 and found Augment Summoning pretty nice despite being a level behind in casting. I guess if you weren't trying to cover both grappling and summoning then the bonus feats from Monk might not be quite as appealing.

For something a little different, an Ankylosaurus companion could be fun, especially if you decide to get into using intimidate or other sorts of debuffs. At level 9+ it would be able to make 2-3 Stun attempts per round with a decent DC (say 23 with Ability Focus)


ChaosTicket wrote:

A better thing Ive read Treatmonk's guide about Druids. Basic thing is whether I want to make a Brute or Caster druid. Im not going to sacrifice spellcasting, but a brute would use more combat feats like Power attack.

Im really trying hard to find a Domain that is practical. I dont find much point in a specific slot spells that cannot be altered. Cleric in particular has alot of domains that give wizard spells which can only be used in those single domain slots per turn.

Storm Druid doesnt seem like a terrible Archetype. It cant use an animal companion, but being able to replace prepared spells with more uses of domain spells might be nice IF I can find spells that arent just Druid spells. That kind of makes the Storm Druid is weaker Theologian. Theologian can use Wizard spells like Fireball.

The Goliath Druid is very brutish. Turning into a giant by level 6 is quite nice. I had to reread this as it DOESNT limit you to just giants, but you cant be a plant or elemental and the only animals are dinosaurs/megafauna. If there is a strong flying dinosaur, then no problem.

there are a few flying dino's, they arent great - but will do. one is tiny, other is large.

getting giant form is GREAT boost but really focued.
i ALWAYS prefer lion or saurian for the standard action summon. it is a game changing ability - summon and move - summon and move.

domain are less potent than animal untill REALLY late levels (12+) when they kick in.
fire to add fireballs (with feats as a spontaneous casting...) .
Rage for rage ability.
nobility (eagle shaman) for divine favor.
glory (lion) for buffs.
all are decent.


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ChaosTicket wrote:
Druid is next on my list.

Wonderful, druids are actually really fun. You just have to remember their gimmick: they are self reliant characters who are not intended to have the easy refinement of the other classes. What I mean by this is that you can go pretty much any direction with Druids, be it a specialist or a generalist, but they are hit much worse by not specializing into things.

This said, you can do some crazy things that other people simply can't without expending crazy resources: you could fly around as a Thrush and, with the proper feats (Natural Spell [spells] and Wild Speech [language]) cast spells and talk without issue.
I'll talk more about that later, but yes: Druids are more complex than clerics. In terms of healing, think of Druids as 1/2 a cleric.
ChaosTicket wrote:
Stats
Druid require Wisdom as their casting statistic so it will likely be the top, secondary or tertiary stat in terms of stat allotment, but this depends entirely on build. Typically speaking Will, Con and Str/Dex will be competing against each other in a build with STR and DEX being emphasized depending on if the Druid is going to go with large or small creatures.
ChaosTicket wrote:
Weapons
Weapons are functional for druids, but you shouldn't build your character around them like you can for other character classes. One of the reasons druids don't have amazing weapon proficiency is that their core combat mechanic, Wildshape, hampers the use of weapons therefore making them be counter-productive.
ChaosTicket wrote:
Armor
Armor is great for druids, and the Wild Armor enchantment, while expensive, can turn various forms into defacto tanks. If you grab a plantshape form that has regeneration, that you qualify to use, then you can more or less just tie up the enemies long enough for your allies to dispatch them. You wont be a god of death, but you can ensure your allies, who are, are more effective.
ChaosTicket wrote:
Spellcasting

You are a full spellcaster, but your spells are not as good as a Cleric's spells. However, your spells revolve around animals, chiefly your animal companion, if you took one, and any awakened or trained beasts that are with you.

You can be incredibly deadly with the right helpers, just one of which is your Animal Companion, and it is entirely possible to have a small army of animals ready to attack with abandon at your word.
Your biggest power, however, is your summon nature's ally spell line. If you go to Superior Summons, then it is easy to flood the battlefield with enough minions to prevent the enemy from effectively doing anything.
ChaosTicket wrote:
BeastWildshape

Wildshape is outrageously powerful. People don't see how strong it is until they think about it. Very few NPCs suspect a random dog with a collar when it meanders over to their secret conversation for loves. Fewer people suspect a thrush in the trees when there are literally hundreds of birds watching the events unfold. In combat, there are plenty of options to play with: anything with multiple attacks and pounce, anything with multiple attacks that all have grab, Hippopotamuses with the vital strike chain or, my favorite, huge flying animals to pick up people, fly up several hundred feet and let them go.

Don't underestimate Wildshape.
ChaosTicket wrote:
Domains

The domains for Druids are OK, but they are not amazing unless your build revolves around them. If you want to play a "tank" druid, then anything that gives you a familiar is great, just play Lawful Neutral and take the "Kami, Shikigami" familiar at level 7 and give it the protector archetype so it absorbs 1/2 the damage you take. It has cast healing and can choose to not absorb damage that would kill it. Your HP effectively doubles over multiple fights. I'm not a fan of Domains over Animal Companions, but it is doable.

ChaosTicket wrote:
Archetypes

The Saurian Druid is the most powerful druid archetype in the game: you can apply the Advanced (+1), Giant (+1) or Young (-1) templates to these animals to put them in your summoning ranges for spells, thereby keeping certain favored animals viable for much longer than usual. The other archetype I like is the Reincarnated Druid, which you can build to be both a physical and magical character. Granted, the Reincarnated Druid starts off weaker, but it is one of the few archetypes that could be ancient since reincarnation can revive you from dying from old age. Mix it with a Green Faith Adept and you're golden.

ChaosTicket wrote:
Early Levels
Animal Companions turn you into a god here. The Big Cats are considered some of the best animal companions in the game, but more exotic companions such as the Deinonychus can also be viable. If you give the animal companion leather armor proficiency, then it is entirely possible to have an animal companion with an AC over 20 at level 1, one, I might add, that has a damage output on par with a dedicated fighter. Much like the fighter, however, the animal companion will quickly become marginalized by the game's higher levels.
ChaosTicket wrote:
I think I understand the appeal of a druid

Druids, as I said before, are absurdly fun, but they do require quite a bit of system mastery to make effective. It is also entirely possible to turn them into pet-masters that follow and aid the animal companion.

The other classes are more specialized than druids are, but the druid has the strength that it can prey on whatever weaknesses it can find. Casters have bad AC (the animal companion takes them), Tanks tend to have poor touch AC (touch spells take them), DPR classes have strong damage output but lower defenses (a combination of Druid and companion takes them out), and when the druid is outclassed, Wildshape or spells that impede non-druids resolves that problem.

A well built and used druid is something that strikes terror into its foes because of the options it has to deal with them, and worse is that fact that druid pretty much never stand alone: there are plenty of spells that give them lots of help.


Ok so I just got into what I believe to be the average GM scenario. Dungeon with at least 1 major trap, smart enemies, and bad player cooperation. We all died. the only really useful character was a Hunter pet Giraffe.

It really emphasized the flaws with any player or character who tries to coast through scenarios.

The Druid has major weaknesses. A pure caster druid is really non-viable. Unless youre the only person who can use wands of cure light wounds, you have to be in the fray killing everything you find. Any kind of Archer build is relatively useless unless you have Precise Shot, but at the same time you should never not have a long range weapon.

Scimitar/club+heavy wooden shield+Hide Armor and Sling is necessary to start with. Strength is very necessary.

I dont know about the best pet, but you would need something with a higher strength and natural armor. It you fight with a pet that has 10 strength, then even weak enemies with 15 AC will give you a 25% chance to hit. Tougher enemies with heavy armor are closer to 5%. Even 3 attacks from a Big Cat means you ideally have about a 75% chance to do d6/d4 damage a round.

Liberty's Edge

ChaosTicket wrote:
Ok so I just got into what I believe to be the average GM scenario. Dungeon with at least 1 major trap, smart enemies, and bad player cooperation. We all died. the only really useful character was a Hunter pet Giraffe.

This makes me think that the campaign is the problem, not the druid. A lot of classes are really good, but will not shine early levels. Most of the 9 levels casters are this way, they take a while before they're consistently good. Druid are usually a step ahead in this because they can have an animal companion to do their fighting for them, or can even work in tandem with them to great effect. Having 3/4 BAB, medium armor and heavy shield proficiency, and the ability to swing a scimitar, or scythe if they want to 2 hand something means they can be entirely competent in combat with even moderate investment. With things like shillelagh they can actually be quite good. A full BAB character will likely have a slightly better attack and damage, but they don't usually come with a flank partner who also has their own attacks.

ChaosTicket wrote:

The Druid has major weaknesses. A pure caster druid is really non-viable. Unless you're the only person who can use wands of cure light wounds, you have to be in the fray killing everything you find. Any kind of Archer build is relatively useless unless you have Precise Shot, but at the same time you should never not have a long range weapon.

Scimitar/club+heavy wooden shield+Hide Armor and Sling is necessary to start with. Strength is very necessary.

A druid does have some weaknesses, but it also has some major strengths. Most characters do, that's how the game is balanced, so that no character can do everything effectively. And pure casters are entirely viable. As I mentioned above it takes a while to be consistently excellent, but if you take the animal companion, you don't need to be mixing it up in combat. That's already being taken care of. If you take a domain, you'll have to figure out a good way to contribute when your spells and domain powers run out, but even moving to flank and using aid another is an effective use of a turn in low levels if used to make sure the full BAB class hits. Archery is fairly useless, unless you specifically focus on it, and even then it takes enough feats that you're never going to match the fighter or ranger, and it doesn't really synergize with most of the class features. What you do have though, are spells, many of which are great for area control, and can force enemies to come into melee range to attack, and at 4th you get to turn into a high movement flying character and just move to wherever the enemies are, or away from where they can attack. And still you have spells, to attack at a distance, or make attacks on you or your team impossible. And no weapons are absolutely necessary, I've seen druids go from level 1-4 without ever drawing a weapon, so that's entirely possible.

ChaosTicket wrote:
I don't know about the best pet, but you would need something with a higher strength and natural armor. It you fight with a pet that has 10 strength, then even weak enemies with 15 AC will give you a 25% chance to hit. Tougher enemies with heavy armor are closer to 5%. Even 3 attacks from a Big Cat means you ideally have about a 75% chance to do d6/d4 damage a round.

A bear with weapon focus claw will have an attack routine of +4,+4,+3 and deal d3+2 on the first two, d4+2 with the second. If you flank with them it's +6/+5. Against the average CR 1 stats that's an average of 8.4 damage a round. Against the average CR 3 stats, that's an average of 6.675 damage a round. And that's before including your damage. If you have a strength of 16 with shillelagh cast, against CR 3 that's another 6.6 damage, so between you and the companion, 13 damage a round on average. A 2 handed fighter with 18 strength, power attack and weapon focus using a great sword will average 8.8 damage a round against the same opponent, Barbarian is 10.45 while raging and using power attack. These classes are the standard for high damage at low level, and you're beating both of them while buffed.


Youre just looking way too far ahead.

Each time I read this thread i just dont think you play low levels much. You can be one or two hit KO'd at that point and unless somebody has a wand of Cur Light wounds the whole party can be wiped out by stray cats or a group of goblins. Not having heavy armor and a heavy shield means youll be knocked out in about 1-2 rounds of your first battle. The way you speak you just are you really not getting hit or missing at all.

People just keep talking about spells. You can only use twice at level 1 and that is all you have to take out every enemy for the day.

I havent even used a Druid yet, but unless I get a Gentle GM, its just suicide.

There are way too many "in theory" classes that take too long to build up at a time when high Ac, high attack bonus, and high damage are key. Example, I thought about making a Bloodrager after that Total Party Kill because we didnt have a Warrior or Trapster. However I read a small but every important detail that its bloodline powers ONLY work when raging and that doesnt build up until much high levels. So yes, again another character that only starts working later.

This is just a difficult situation for me. We need Warriors above all other classes, but nobody wants to be one when the reputation of Caster classes is so high. I dont even want to be one when I can eventually reach the point where Im a bear summoning lightning and buffing my strength up.


ChaosTicket wrote:
bad player cooperation. We all died.
We all died should be the default in this case. If you guys were in one of my dungeons, the giraffe wouldn't have even made it out. Pathfinder is a team game, anyone who tells you otherwise is full of crap.
ChaosTicket wrote:
The Druid has major weaknesses. A pure caster druid is really non-viable.
Two Words: Summoner Build. Yes, the Summoner Class does it better, especially with Master Summoner, but it also can't revive other PCs with reincarnate or use restoration spells. It is a give an take; plus while the summoner's pet is stronger, the druid's doesn't go away when the character goes to sleep.
ChaosTicket wrote:
Scimitar/club+heavy wooden shield+Hide Armor and Sling is necessary to start with. Strength is very necessary.
It's called an animal companion, and it is usually on-par with a mediocre fighter. Imagine you have a Warrior following you around.
ChaosTicket wrote:
I dont know about the best pet[.]

The animal companions have 2 HD, 1 feat, 1 bab and typically have multiple attacks. Trust me, they tend to be pretty dangerous. The best animal companion in the game is generally considered to be the Big Cat, but the "Warcat" is generally considered to be slightly better for physical things. Ultimately, however, most of the animal companions can be viable.

The other reality is this: if the enemy is attacking the animal companion, the other players are not being attacked by that enemy. The other player characters are probably more effective at a specific job than the animal companion is, so it is a winning solution for the party. Another big point is that if an enemy is attacking the animal companion, the rogue has an instant flanking buddy. ^_~


Actually an Unchained Summoner or Kineticist would work at level 1 Casters. The Summoner would be able to summon about 6 times per day for 1 minute each.

Kineticist could start with a ranged touch attack with d6+Con modifier attack.

I think a boar would be the best level 1 pet. 18 AC and easy leather barding for 20AC and no worrying about getting Full attacks because it has one d8 attack.

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Back in the days of 3.5, I played an elf druid archer with a riding dog trained for war (which doesn't seem to be an option in PF).

I started at 1st level, and was so poor I didn't even bother buying a backpack because it would have bankrupted me, so it would have just been empty. But I was so poor because I had a shortbow.

Anyways, I was able to do archery to start the encounter, and have my animal companion move in to do melee. When it came time for melee, I would draw a club. I think I mostly prepared just cure light wounds for all of 1st level. It is that useful.

By 2nd level, I was rich enough to get barding for dog, a longbow, and a longsword--and a backpack! I started branching out with faerie fire and entangle. By 3rd level, I was comfortable using summon nature's allies I & II and, since I had Rapid Shot, produce flame.

At 5th level, I gained wild shape and Natural Spell at 6th level (this was 3.5). Also, my summons lasted pretty much the whole fight. By 9th I had Craft Wand to make wands of clw. At 12th, I got Empower Spell, mostly for my flame strikes. At 15th, I took Improved Counterspell (!), and it was fun to trade out 4th level flame strikes for the standard 3rd level evocations of my enemies.

(I might have had a Rod of Empower Spell and gotten Improved Counterspell at 12th. I remember putting skill points into Knowledge arcana for a different feat that dealt with energy types, but might have ended up skipping it... I know I traded a Rod of Empower Spell for a Rod of Extend Spell with the arcane trickster since I had so many long term buffs....)

So in my experience, druids are survivable from 1st level to 16th level, when my DM moved away.

EDIT:

I just realized why counterspelling as a druid wasn't super annoying and boring. I had an animal companion and summoned nature's allies to be my active action economy bits, so my druid could afford to be relatively passive and pre-active with soaking up damage (instead of healing it later--and much less efficiently!).


ChaosTicket wrote:
Youre just looking way too far ahead.[...]Each time I read this thread i just dont think you play low levels much.[...]People just keep talking about spells. You can only use twice at level 1 and that is all you have to take out every enemy for the day.[...]I havent even used a Druid yet, but unless I get a Gentle GM, its just suicide.

I was pretty much the heart of the party: when enemies attacked, Dulin (my Deinonychus animal companion) pretty much lead the charge and came back alive every time.

I remember his build, allow me to throw you some numbers:
First, the pages:
Animal Companions.
Armor Deinonychus are small animals, so at the bottom of the armor page it tells us that dulin's armor costs 2x standard.
The Druid class page shows me that druids start with 70 gp.

Dulin the Deinonychus:
Size Small
Speed 60 ft.
AC +1 natural armor
Attack 2 talons (1d6), bite (1d4)
Ability Scores Str 11, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 14
Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.

Animal companions start with "2d8" + con mod hp aka 9 + con mod hp (4.5+4.5), Dulin, as you can see above has 17 con, so he has +3 hp per HD, hence giving him 15 HP (4.5+4.5+3+3).

I gave him Studded Leather Armor (+3 AC; 50 gp) and just left it on him indefinitely due to the ability for creatures to sleep in leather armor without penalty.

So lets tally up some of Dulin's basic stats:
HP: 15
AC: 18 (10 [base] +1 [size] +3 [dex] +3 [Armor] +1 [Natural Armor])
Bonus to hit: +2 (+1 [size] +1 [bab])
Average damage on full attacks (because that is how the bestiary does it): 9 damage a round (3.5 + 3.5 [2 talons] + 2.5 [bite] + 0 [str]).

He isn't garbage, but he can take a hit and possibly dish out some damage. He can avoid hits like a discount fighter (most fighters at lvl 1 will opt for a Scale Mail (+5 ac / +3 dex) and a shield (+2 ac / — dex) to get to 17 - 20 AC (18 - 21 if small) or a tower shield to get higher AC than that.

By lvl 3, Dulin's AC would spike up by 3 (to 21) due to his dex going up by 1 and the natural armor increase.

This tells me that your idea that Druids and their animal companions are garbage is flawed. I have played a druid, they are quite beefy at level 1 due to the animal companion. Druids who forsake such companions (they tend to crap on the floor) for a domain become a Discount Cleric/Wizard with some cool abilities, compared to where they are now, which could be likened to a discount Cleric/Wizard that starts with Leadership.

ChaosTicket wrote:
Kineticist could start with a ranged touch attack with d6+Con modifier attack.

The only Kineticist I played was a Kinetic Chrugeon from level 1, and I can tell you that it is fun to be able to pretty much heal indefinitely. The rest of the party (the ones taking damage) decide when to stop due to the non-lethal damage and the Burn cap, but the party is generally able to do far more in a day than they are with just a Cleric.


One thing I haven't noticed anyone mention yet (sorry if it has been) is the Wild armor enchantment which allows you to retain the armor bonus from the armor you're wearing while you are wild shaped.

To your low level struggles... its worth it. I struggled hard at low levels but my animal companion was my damage output. I was also aided by my Totem Transformation at lvl 2 if things got hairy, which they often did. Those were from my archetype but if you go normal druid and choose a domain over an animal companion you will have to depend on your wits and the party to survive. It will suck mostly but if your character can survive you will have a very powerful character indeed.

Use Shillelagh for a quarterstaff or club if you're forced into melee or have an Aspect of the Falcon prepared if you intend to stay at range.


I know animal companions can be useful. Its when situations get harder that they turn up as really bad ideas. Flanking gives off attacks of opportunity, which an smart enemy can and will exploit.

Im brute force maybe I can try a pet, but its probably going to get into a simple situation where the enemy is smart and focuses on my character because i am weaker, or focuses on the animal and takes it out quickly.

Animals really dont have the versatility of a player. You have to teach them tricks to attack, not go into traps, follow you, or flank.

The Druid doesnt have equipment versatility. Im wondering if I should get heavy armor proficiency at level 1 so i can get Dragonscale Banded Mail at level 2. Racial Martial weapon proficiencies are mediocre for most classes, but very important for the Druid.

Deja Vu?


I honestly fail to see how hard level 1-3 are. They are bit harsher then higher level because you lack tools.

2 level 1 Spells > that can be encounter ending

Entangle, Mudball (blind enemy)
Produce Flame > TOUCH attack dealing 1d6+1, bye bye all your problems about AC and low BAB. It las TEN 10 rounds, I bet that's enough to kill 10 goblins at least.

Shillelagh> +1 to hit/damage at level 1. Increase hit dice damage.

Acid Maw > You Animal does extra damage on hit and one round after.

Bristle > Trace your Animal Natural Armor Bonus for +damage on a 1:1 ratio.

Level 1 are completely survivable, even more so on Pathfinder. You've got d8+FCB+CON. That's a minium of 8+1+2 = 11 HP at level 1.

Kobold Damage > Melee spear +1 (1d6–1/x3)
Goblin > Melee short sword +2 (1d4/19–20)
Goblin Fighter 1 > Melee longspear +3 (1d6+1/x3) or short sword +3 (1d4+1/19–20)
Goblin Fighter 2 CR 5, that's a APL+4 > Melee +1 longsword +3 (1d8+5/19–20), mwk handaxe +3 (1d6+2/×3), silver dagger +2

Fighter 2, 1d8+5, rolling maximum damage you fall, and not even dead. He has +3 PLUS 3 to hit, your AC should be around 17, as discussed before. He needs a 14 to hit you, I guess those are pretty good odds in your favor.

Guess what his Reflex Save is? 2.

Remember Mudball, that blinds enemies? Your DC for that Spell is 10 (base)+1(spell level)+2(WIS MOD)=13.
The Gobling CR 5 needs to roll an 11 to not be blinded.

You are already breaking action economy because of your AC, plus you've got spells, cantrips that can dazzle an enemy for 1 minute, or you can give allies +1 to hit with guidance.
It's the best choice? Maybe if you're going Caster Druid.

You have tons of tools, let's not even mention consumables like tanglefoot bags, alchemist fire, acid flask and others.

You can die at level 1, yes, but you're also a Cleric, can summon even if it last 1 turn, can prepare a heal, or can buy scrolls (25GP) of CLW.


Um, Produce Flame only lasts 1 minute, and each time you use it it reduces it duration by one minute. So It only has one charge at level 1.

Bristle at level 1 lets you trade 1 point of natural armor for a +1 enhancement bonus. Magic Fang is better at that point as it just gives a +1 enhancement, no penalties.

Mudball has a 25foot range, targets one enemy, and does no damage. It can be removed just by using one standard action.

Entangle, can actually be very good. It works on multiple enemies, but it also can work on friendlies so it requires your team to have ranged weapons to properly use it. I had the bad luck to fight in an environment that didnt allow it.

Spells take a while to become useful by increasing in duration and having more spells per day. They arent useless, but most having 1 minute duration means theyre only good for one combat. A continuous combat or multiple per day means that spell will probably be kept on hold until a boss enemy appears.

By level 5-10 alot of the Druid's problems go away, but before then it s aubpar Warrior. The animal companion is there to keep the Druid alive longer, but its not the answer ti everything.
-----------------
Ok, I dont think there is much more to anyone to add. Its now just a game of pingpong. the Druid painfully weak early on an animal companion is a nice crutch, but still a crutch. I plan to try it out, but Ill likely be KO'd just because the Druid lacks the practical combat equipment. The best Druid option early on would be to use a Club and Shillelagh, but even then a Warrior will do the same thing with a two Handed sword and without the duration.

Ever hear of Magikarp? That is how I imagine the Druid, Cleric, and especially the Wizard.


ChaosTicket wrote:

I know animal companions can be useful. Its when situations get harder that they turn up as really bad ideas. Flanking gives off attacks of opportunity, which an smart enemy can and will exploit.

Im brute force maybe I can try a pet, but its probably going to get into a simple situation where the enemy is smart and focuses on my character because i am weaker, or focuses on the animal and takes it out quickly.

Animals really dont have the versatility of a player. You have to teach them tricks to attack, not go into traps, follow you, or flank.

The Druid doesnt have equipment versatility. Im wondering if I should get heavy armor proficiency at level 1 so i can get Dragonscale Banded Mail at level 2. Racial Martial weapon proficiencies are mediocre for most classes, but very important for the Druid.

Deja Vu?

Why do you keep dismissing the animal companion as a solution to low level druid survival? Your problem is that you think a druid isn't capable enough at 1st level, when a first level big cat companion with light armor proficiency is a better tank then most fighters at 1st level.

The only tricks you need are attack, heel, down, and follow. You can get all of those. Your druid doesn't need equipment at first level because he will actively avoid getting into the fray and his tiger buddy will easily attract the attention of anyone who might be interested in the druid. Prepare a pair of cure light wounds spells, if needed turn them into summons in a pinch. Its VERY easy to survive at low levels as a druid. Your actual character is almost irrelevant to your survival. The character himself literally need not be involved in the dangerous stuff. Just say to the rear and order his companion around. Along with the rest of your party that should be more then enough to keep you safe.


ChaosTicket wrote:


Spells take a while to become useful by increasing in duration and having more spells per day. They arent useless, but most having 1 minute duration means theyre only good for one combat. A continuous combat or multiple per day means that spell will probably be kept on hold until a boss enemy appears.

Correct, a druid should not be looking to contribute primarily with their spells in most combats. Those are held in reserve or used to buff the companion in tough encounters at low levels.

Quote:

By level 5-10 alot of the Druid's problems go away, but before then it s aubpar Warrior. The animal companion is there to keep the Druid alive longer, but its not the answer ti everything.

Please explain to me how a class feature that is about as good at being a fighter as most fighters at 1st level isn't an answer? One of the druids class features is able to contribute as much as a whole entire character. The reason its a solution is because at low levels, most encounters can be handled by low level martial characters. You get one of those standard to go with your druid.

Quote:


-----------------
Ok, I dont think there is much more to anyone to add. Its now just a game of pingpong. the Druid painfully weak early on an animal companion is a nice crutch, but still a crutch. I plan to try it out, but Ill likely be KO'd just because the Druid lacks the practical combat equipment. The best Druid option early on would be to use a Club and Shillelagh, but even then a Warrior will do the same thing with a two Handed sword and without the duration.

Don't put the druid into combat, that is in fact a good way to get dead. Keep them out of combat until he starts getting wild shape and more spells. That crutch you mention is more then enough to allow the druid to do the low level version of Olympic sprinting. When your crutch has 3 melee attacks, the fact that your characters personal contributions is a sling or nothing is sort of irrelavent. Take the big cat companion, give it armor prof and light barding, give yourself hide armor, stay out of combat, and if you absolutely must, sling some stones while the cat does your fighting for you until you have enough spells to throw a couple in every encounter.

Quote:

Ever hear of Magikarp? That is how I imagine the Druid, Cleric, and especially the Wizard.

So the 3 most capable classes in the game are magikarp? What planet do you live on? Sure they are a bit squishy at level 1, but that's why you have fighter types. To stand in front of the casters and keep them relatively safe.


I still wonder whats bad about a companion that litterally start at lvl2? ( 2HD, which is d8s, which is potensially better than your lvl 1 Barbarian HP wise )

I dunno, i feel like if you were talking about a barbarian you would dismiss him as useless because you can only rage so many turns before you run out and turn useless.

The druid is possibly the best lvl1 class in the game as you get a half-cleric and a 2HD beast with 1-3 natural attacks... in essence you get 3 levels for the price of 1.

You have the ability to heal yourself, summon meatshields, comes with a meatshield, have early buffs, not the worst BAB progression, 2 of the better saves.

Sure you only have 1 spell slot plus any bonus from your attributes which is most likely put you at +1 at 12, or +2 at 20. And before combat you have Perception as a class skill and you are most likely going to be the scout aswell.

And at lvl 3 you get some of the better buffs in the game, at least one of them will be useful until the end of the game.

To me, it just sounds you want a "auto-win" character that cover everything to a perfection of defense, offense and growth potensial... You like to complain about people not playing the early levels, but to me it feels like you never actually played the game.


ChaosTicket wrote:
Im really trying hard to find a Domain that is practical. I dont find much point in a specific slot spells that cannot be altered. Cleric in particular has alot of domains that give wizard spells which can only be used in those single domain slots per turn.

You can get domain slots back with Pearls of Power. That's not a good deal for something like fireball, but druids have other blasts anyways. For something you might cast once per fight it's an option if it isn't too high level. That would be something like Fly from the Feather domain. And you get an animal companion you can boost to full with Boon Companion because it's a subdomain of Animal. Sure, you can just turn into a bird to fly, but then you have to choose between having a top notch combat form and being able to fight airborne opponents. A feather domain druid can be hovercat. Pick up the Improved Spell Sharing teamwork feat and grab an extend metamagic rod to make up for the duration loss and when you get Overland Flight your pet can be hovercat while you're hoverdinosaur and save the third domain slot to use when the barbarian feels left out and use the third level pearls to GMF more of your or your companion's teeth and claws or pass them on to the ranger for instant enemy.

Remember, you don't need a pearl in hand to cast the spell, you use it between combats.

Quote:
Storm Druid doesnt seem like a terrible Archetype. It cant use an animal companion, but being able to replace prepared spells with more uses of domain spells might be nice IF I can find spells that arent just Druid spells. That kind of makes the Storm Druid is weaker Theologian. Theologian can use Wizard spells like Fireball.

You also get the ability to spam generally useful domain spells while preparing more situational spells.

This is potentially good for obscuring mist since you can see through it and your enemies can't. Same for fog cloud if you take weather or one of its subdomains. The only maybe useful off-list spell I can find available to any storm druid domain options is Solid Fog from the cloud domain.


I don't think he cares about learning.
He didn't even read the spell Produce Flame, which is Touch Attack and last 1 min. You can use it as ranged, but D8 is more than enough to be on the frontline, otherwise Clerics/Rogues would be screwed.

You're either playing a campaign with 25 combats a days, or you just nova at every single encounter, being it a kobold or the BBEG

I don't know what game you're playing, but Druid is the only base class that starts with 2 characters. You have 3 levels combined against everyone else who has, guess what? ONE.

AC is just so op early levels until level 7, that might as well ditch the fighter and get another AC.


@ChaosTicket: if you're dead set on being martially proficient then go with the Nature Fang archtype and pick a race that gives you weapon proficiency with what you want. Elf can get you longbow. You lose shapeshift but you're still proficient in combat and a full 9th level divine caster. Plus your animal companion is still there for you.

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You could go half-orc, trade in the Sacred Tattoo and whatever gives you Endurance, take Diehard, and use your great axe.

Or maybe try ranger? It's got the nature theme, full BAB, 2 good saves, d10 HD, 6 skill points per level, wild empathy, an eventual pet (or party buff), spellcasting, and other druidy bits. Plus all martial weapons, can wear metal armor, use metal shields, Track, favored enemy, favored terrain, etc. etc.


ChaosTicket wrote:

I know animal companions can be useful. Its when situations get harder that they turn up as really bad ideas. Flanking gives off attacks of opportunity, which an smart enemy can and will exploit.

Im brute force maybe I can try a pet, but its probably going to get into a simple situation where the enemy is smart and focuses on my character because i am weaker, or focuses on the animal and takes it out quickly.

Animals really dont have the versatility of a player. You have to teach them tricks to attack, not go into traps, follow you, or flank.

The Druid doesnt have equipment versatility. Im wondering if I should get heavy armor proficiency at level 1 so i can get Dragonscale Banded Mail at level 2. Racial Martial weapon proficiencies are mediocre for most classes, but very important for the Druid.

Deja Vu?

My animal companion never turned up as a bad idea. Once I hit lvl 7 and it grew to Large it was truly the murderer of our party. I took Evolve Companion twice to improve its bite damage by one size category and to add 1d6 Bleed to its bite attacks. Then I had it take Improved Natural Attack: Bite when it gained a feat... giving its bite 4d6 plus 2x STR mod(+14), plus 1d6 Bleed, plus Grab!

Animal companions can be more versatile than you might think. An animal companion with an intelligence of 3 or higher can not only understand a language you speak or think to open doors but can take ANY feat they are physically capable of using! The Final Embrace line, Rending Fury line, etc...

Druids are fine when it comes to armor... you just gotta look at things from a different angle. There is the Ice Armor spell which has armor equal to a breastplate, Hide, wooden armor can be freely worn (yes with lesser armor bonus but easily cured with an Ironwood spell at later levels), Bone works well and loses the Fragile property when it becomes magical and obviously Dragon hide/plate when you can get it. Don't forget the Wild magical enchantment that keeps your armor bonus in wild shape. Keep a heavy wooden shield handy as well(also with Wild when able).

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And if you go scimitar & board, you can magically enhance your armor AND your shield, and you'll be saving money by casting barkskin instead of buying an Amulet of Natural Armor. If you have a spare feat, you can even take Craft Wondrous Item and be the party crafter of the +2/+2/+2 or +4/+4/+4 or +4/+4/+4 items and amulets and even some mental stat enhancers. And Cloaks of Resistance.

Maybe go human and take
1. Spell Focus conjuration
1. Augment Summoning
3. Craft Wondrous Item
5. Natural Spell
7. Superior Summoning or your favorite Combat Feat for your favorite Wild Shape form or maybe Spell Penetration.

Liberty's Edge

ChaosTicket wrote:
By level 5-10 a lot of the Druid's problems go away, but before then it s sub par Warrior.

That's a brief way to explain the exact opposite of how my druid worked. He was never as effective compared to the rest of the group as he was in the first 3 levels. Started with a stegosaurus animal companion with leather armor and weapon finesse. So 22 AC and +4 to hit with 2d6 damage at level 1. Quickly upgraded to studded leather when I could afford masterwork, so before level 2 it had AC 23, and was often doing as much damage as any other PC. The druid started with 18 strength, hide armor and a heavy shield. So AC 18 and swinging a club for +4 to attack and 1d6+4 damage. Used shillelagh for the BBEG, and taught the animal companion the flank trick to get +2 to attack the majority of the time. Until the 3rd level, the stegosaurus never got hit more than once a session, and several times went the whole sessions without getting hit because most enemies needed 20s to hit it. Nothing stood up to the two of them attacking. The only hope enemies had were to target the animal companion with will saves, which really only slowed things a little.

At level 5 you need to start figuring out how you're going to wild shape and keep any sort of respectable AC. Usually this means barding for the handful of animal forms you're going to shift into. And any combat that ask for something that your current form doesn't supply, like needing to climb, swim or fly means you're stuck changing into another form without any sort of armor, or changing back into human form and popping a potion to accomplish what you need. If you can get the party wizard to just cast mage armor until you can afford wild armor, you're golden. I wasn't usually so lucky.

So, any one shot adventure at low level, and this if my build. You have tanking, you have damage, you have healing, and you're not bad at skills, especially perception, the most used skill in the game. I really can't imagine a more survivable class at level one. Or at least I couldn't, until hunter and sacred huntsmaster came out.


Druid have, normally, unless magic is cheap and out there , armor class issues.
And sometimes to hit issues as they are MAD. Also low on feats.

But... They are amazing versatile class that should choose a path.

Melee:
Goliath are the best . followed by mountain , lion and saurian archtypes.
All spells are buffs and summon . very poor spell dc.
Melee need to dip one with monk for armor and should take power attack , vital strike, grapple and any feat or item that add str.
Rage domain or glory or a pet.

Caster:
Fire domain or a pet, a flyer is best.saurian or lion or eagle for summon master with your spells.

Hybrid.
It's like a caster that take vital strike and str of 14. You will never be amazing , but you will be useful .

Lastly , nature fang. No wild shapes but free feats , a pet and a full caster will make you a decent charger or archer build.


Also, here is a concept I have been wanting to play but haven't had the chance to...
My mystical swamp assassin

Lizardfolk
Nature Fang Druid
Crocodile Domain
Varient Multiclass Rouge
Mauler archetype for familiar
Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augmented Summoning and Superior Summons
Outflank for you and familiar

Your Sneak Attack will be quite deadly and your Familiar with very little buffing could equal an Animal Companion. No Wild Shape but some serious damage output. Summon like its cool to keep the flanking up.


666bender wrote:

Druid have, normally, unless magic is cheap and out there , armor class issues.

And sometimes to hit issues as they are MAD. Also low on feats.

You kind of just described nearly every class in Pathfinder that isn't a full caster.

Lets take The Spell Sage Wizard for maximum "getting off the ground fast" potential.
Step 1: Take every trait and feat that you can that increases the caster level of a specific spell (Burning Hands it popular). Congratulations: you now do 5d4 damage at level 1 (12.5 damage on average) to a 15 foot cone.

Spam the crap out of this (or whatever spell you chose) until you hit level 3. At this point, you, being the spell sage that you are, use Spell Study to cast the Cleric spell "Lesser Animate Dead" in conjunction with "Focused Spells" to have the most skeletons / Zombies following you around as possible to act as meat shields for you and your allies.

From here, you retrain your feats and traits to whatever spell is the most optimal for you, and probably settling on disintegrate for the absurd damage it can do on a failed save. Next, you take some feats that let you apply a meta-magic without increasing its spell level and apply Quicken, now you can cast TWO Disintegrates in a single round (go you!) and can basically one-shot or one-round nearly every monster you could be going up against while your army of the undead watches your back.

So what do you need in terms of Attributes to pull off this amazing build?
High Int, High Con (for the HPs) and maybe enough strength to pay for your skeletons and spells with Blood Money. You can dump every other statistic, expect Dex if you're going ray spell specialization (aka Disintegrate).

Magic is also cheap as hell for a druid: do you use weapons? No? Ok, take Craft Wondrous Item and make all of your own gear for 1/2 the cost: it costs you 1 feat to be able to make all the gear you and your pet(s) will need. Some GMs will ban this option.

Feats: Plan out the feats you're going to take to turn yourself into a specifically built badass.

For my hybrid Druids, I prefer going Reincarnated Druid + Green Faith Acolyte. Start venerable, and if you make it to level 5, die and be reborn with your physical statistics having been reset. You get a free +3 to all mental statistics (but can't gain 3 more from aging) while having the -6 penalty to physical stats being removed.

Be a strong caster, be a strong melee combatant (Doubly so if you roll a Bugbear), and then wildshape into the animal equivalent of Superman (Warcats are fun).


The animal companion can be a better combatant than a lot of PCs at 1st level, and the Druid isn't horrible relatively speaking since at 1st level BAB differences aren't pronounced yet and folks don't tend to have heavy armor yet. However, the OP seems kind of like he just wants people to waste time generating advice and arguments he can shoot down with his low level Killer DM doomsaying, so probably nothing anybody says will change his opinion.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I was lucky. When I played a druid, the interpretation of the Monk's Belt was VERY beneficial.

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