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Pearls of Power are your "mana potion" and are expensive.
Though it's been pretty rare in my groups to see a spell caster run out of spells early in the dungeon. Even at level 1 there's still cantrips, yes?
Play at a level above 7? Casters actually have far more spells then they can use in the expected 4 encounters a day. Even if you stretch that to 6 encounters a day, the casters should be fine with proper resource management. At levels 13+, it becomes virtually impossible for a caster to run out of spells in a given day.
Of course if you play at level above 7 the odds are the Fighter and Rogue are going to feel redundant pretty quickly...
But no seriously, casters don't need more spells.
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I wholly understand your predicament, and wish I could find an answer, myself, but sadly, even while having a limit to the number of things they can do per day, casters are already, as a general rule, rather more powerful than other classes. Granting them the ability to recover spent spell slots - especially for spontaneous casters - only makes them more powerful.
The best solution to this, so far, is wands, scrolls, staves, and other spell trigger items. Of course, these all strike me as more like bandages to this problem than actual solutions, and you can certainly find detractors for each (considering them not good enough, that is). It would be great to have the classic image of mages slinging fireballs and thunderbolts left and right in the heat of battle, but anything that allows such things needs to have an answer for those who would rather sling black tentacles, dominate persons, and summon monsters.
Have you looked at 5th Edition?
They made cantrips significant (1d10 @ 1st, 2d10 @ 5th, 3d10 @ 11th, 4d10 at 17th). This means, wizards can use cantrips for moderate encounters, and use spells when they're needed.
Secondly, they incorporated limited means of regaining spent spell slots. Wizards get Arcane Recovery (which lets them regain a number of spell slots equal to half their level, for example, a 4th level wizard can regain one 2nd level spell or two 1st level spells).
Maybe incorporate one or both of their ideas.
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At levels 13+, it becomes virtually impossible for a caster to run out of spells in a given day...
Just checked my notes, last module with my lvl 14 druid, 16 encounters, no resting, more than half his spells per day remaining. Can't say I remember the last time I cast every spell prepared with him, but I'm guessing it was probably around level 3-4. Between wands, scroll, pearls/runestones of power and cantrips, I've rarely seen a spellcaster feel useless and need to rest outside of not having a healing wand and casting all their spells on healing. Usually by level 2, the party invests in a wand, and this isn't a problem. They can usually get by at low level with scrolls, and at higher levels when scroll DCs aren't worth it, they have enough spell slots for their offensive spells.
If anything, I would consider raising the strength of offensive cantrips to 1d4 damage minimum, and allow liquid ice and holy water to be used as focuses to ray of frost and disrupt undead respectively for a +1 to damage similar to the alchemical reagent option for an acid flask to boost acid splash. And don't be skimpy on the healing wands.
In 5th Edition, I play a dwarf Life cleric dedicated to Desna in Rise of the Rune Lords. Around 7th or 9th level, we were deep in a dungeon, fighting hags and giants, and I ran out of spells! Then we had a climatic battle. It was scary!!! I just had cantrips and a warhammer.
It's not as big of a problem at higher levels.
What level are you?
If Wizard is using Lighting Bolts, he's doing it so-so. He should be using Battlefield Control spells or summons.
Wizards as blasters aren't the best, they have more utility/CC spells than most, targeting different saves.
Around level 3 your WBL is high enough to allow many scrolls. 12.5 GP each is almost nothing.
Sure, there aren't that many scrolls, but you could have some Ray of Enfeeblement , even if the save is low, it might worth a shot.
Mage Armor, instead of using a slot, just use a scroll. Same applies for shield.
Protection from evil also scroll.
Honestly caster don't really need help. There's always Acid Splash, that's 1d3 as touch attack every round. Use Precise Shot and you rarely fail
I still haven't worked out the mechanics but I'm thinking of a scaling blast that a wizard has access to to provide damage capability regularly. The idea is similar to a warlock's eldritch blast and is inspired by Zed from Legend of the Seeker (TV show, not the novels). Not sure if it should be based on spell points, a fatigue mechanic or just per day based off of Con. Of course my idea is so that wizards can do more thematic ritualistic magic with effects other than damage yet not sacrifice damage capability.
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I still haven't worked out the mechanics but I'm thinking of a scaling blast that a wizard has access to to provide damage capability regularly. The idea is similar to a warlock's eldritch blast and is inspired by Zed from Legend of the Seeker (TV show, not the novels). Not sure if it should be based on spell points, a fatigue mechanic or just per day based off of Con. Of course my idea is so that wizards can do more thematic ritualistic magic with effects other than damage yet not sacrifice damage capability.
I wanna say one of Paizo's recent books or soon to be published books is actually going to have something resembling the 3.5e warlock in that regard. Renamed, of course. I'll go browsing through stuff to see if I can find it again.
EDIT: Turns out it is called the Warlock, and is an archetype of the Vigilante, both found in Ultimate Intrigue. It replaces what can be reductively equated to the ranger's combat style class feature - not something central to the class, but not insignificant either. Still, it may give you some ideas for how that sort of thing could work. Being an Ultimate book, I expect we'll see it added to the PRD in about 6 months or so.
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3.5 had a variant where spells had cooldowns. Most spells of a given level would share their cooldown so you were forced to use lots of different spells.
Hi All,
I'm not a fan of the situation regarding spells/day and the constant running back to taverns to rest:
Mage: "So I've use all my decent spells and am now useless until we rest so we should go and sleep for 8 hours."
Fighter: "But we've only just got into the dungeon! It's 4 hours back to the tavern! You think Wizard Certaindeath is going to hang around in here while you go take a nap?!?!?!?!"
Mage: "Well, if you want me to go in and attack this guy with a sling, rather than lightning bolts, then fine."
Healer: "True, he would be a big damage loss. Plus, I've only got one healing spell left..."
Rogue: "This is pathetic..."
Fighter: "*sigh* Fine, let's go back to the tavern."Now, I don't want to give the casters no limits, as that would take away from the need to consider whether to cast their big spells etc. So I'm thinking about two potential solutions:
1. Creating some kind of mana potion - expensive of course. That gives 'x' levels worth of spells back.
2. Give the caster the ability to cast more spells but at the cost of -1 INT for each level of the spell they cast. (The INT would come back after the 8 hour rest)Anyone think one of them might work, or have alternative/adjusted solutions? I'd appreciate your advice.
I've never ever had this scenario pop up even at first level. One of the reasons is that many groups that I've run or played with had time-depenedent scenarios. The mission HAS to be done with in a fixed time limit or they fail. So the wizard doesn't blow all of his wad in the first 15 minutes of the adventuring day.
Also, 1 and 2 are easily done with existing mechanics... wands and scrolls.
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Previous to now, I've played D&D, Shadownrun, Cyberpunk2020, Star Wars EotE, and a complete homebrewed system, so I'm not new to RPGs or being the GM, but I am new to PF.
Well I'd like to take this opportunity, then, to say that Pathfinder is, of course, very similar to 3.5e D&D, but that the devil is in the details and there are a lot of small, nuanced changes between the two systems that result in some pretty marked differences. For example, in 3e, you'd see a lot of "dip" builds among power-gamers where a character would take one or two levels in several different classes, and might be tempted to think that since Pathfinder did away with multiclassing's XP penalty and whatnot that multiclassing would be even more of a problem, but this is wholly countered by the fact that Pathfinder also did away with empty levels, as well as introducing numerous archetypes and hybridized classes so you'll rarely see anyone multiclass at all, whether they care about power-gaming or not. For characterization-focused players, there's pretty much guaranteed to be a class or archetype that perfectly matches your concept (and if there isn't, it's generally not hard to refluff something to match), and if you're a power-gamer, the hit to saves, BAB, and loss of class-level-based abilities (which virtually every class has, now) outweighs any benefits that versatility might grant.
This isn't necessarily to say that Pathfinder or 3e is a better or worse system than the other, just that Pathfinder's quest to do away with the bugs in 3e unintentionally (but, perhaps, inevitably) created some quirks of its own. So, in short, just be careful about carrying over any assumptions you may have or form moving from one system to the other. Probably about 75% of the system is virtually identical, another 20% is fairly evident what's changed and how, but that remaining 5% means that your first few times playing, you should carefully read at least any and all rules pertaining to your character, no matter how well you may know the other system.
After you get used to Pathfinder and want to try out a new magic system, pick up Spheres of Power. It offers a new take on magic and almost every sphere has something it can do all day.
Other than that, welcome to Pathfinder.
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This is going to sound counterintuitive: before character creation create a house rule that extends the amount of time required before casters can replenish spells, so instead of daily replenishment, make it every three days for example. On the surface it might seem like it makes the problem worse, but if you do this a few things are likely to happen:
* Anyone who still wants to play a caster will make sure that they design their character to have better all round utility and not be so spell dependent.
* The martial / caster disparity will be reduced significantly.
* Certain classes like rogues get to shine more because casters won't waste precious spells to overshadow them. For example if the rogue can climb the castle wall there is no way the caster will waste a fly spell.
* Encounter design becomes easier because there is less risk of spell based short circuits.
* The CR system becomes more useful as a guide to encounter difficulty.
* Adventure paths are still a challenge for veteran players.
So that we are absolutely clear all that I am interested in is putting forward ideas and reading what ideas other people have. I have zero interest in defending my ideas. If you like them great, if you don't, oh well.
Additional casting with casting stat drain of twice the spell's level ?
I am not sure what your idea is, can you explain it in more detail? It sounds like a wizard can cast an unlimited number of first level spells at -2 to their intelligence.
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Additional casting with casting stat drain of twice the spell's level ?I am not sure what your idea is, can you explain it in more detail? It sounds like a wizard can cast an unlimited number of first level spells at -2 to their intelligence.
I think he means each spell you cast means you take 2 x Spell Level of Int/Wis/Cha/Con damage. So a 20 INT wizard would have 5 addition spell casts per day at 1st level, each a lower DC, until they're at INT 10 and can't cast spells. Without other changes to it, it'd take 10 days of rest before they're back at their original level of casting.
Just do what 5th Edition did and make cantrips better.
For example, ray of frost in 5th Edition does 1d8 points of damage, and I think it also reduces the target's speed by 10 feet. Damage increases by 1d8 at levels 5, 11, and 17 (basically at each tier of play).
EDIT:
For PF, maybe change the damage upgrade levels to 6, 11, and 16, the same levels full BAB characters get iterative attacks.
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But then how do you keep cantrips from completely eclipsing 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd-level spells? Note that even if the cantrip's effect is on par with a Nth-level spell, the fact that cantrips are infinitely castable makes it so that more than likely, such a cantrip would, in the vast majority of situations, be preferable to a spell of level N+1 or more.
Cantrips and iterative attacks... make cantrips... iterative attacks?
If the party is resting after a full day of encounters that's actually a normal part of the game. If the party is frequently resting after 1 or 2 encounters either the DM made the encounters too hard or the players are not doing a good job of resource management (or a combination of the two). Wands can help a lot, especially in regards to out of combat healing, which should rarely come from a PC's spell slots. Buying a wand or two of offensive spells might seem like a waste of a Wizard's gold, but I guess you could think of it "like the Wizard's magic weapon" (since Wizards typically aren't very good at fighting with swords, bows, etc)
When it comes to house rules, I don't think that making cantrips a little more worthwhile would break the game though it might make certain 1d6+half your level school powers even less appealing. Perhaps if those went up to 1d6+level and cantrips took over the 1d6+half slot that would help a bit, but honestly I think folks would still want to rest and get back their best powers. It is using these sorts of powers and or wands in the "easy" encounters and saving your big stuff up for when it is needed which would really help extend the adventuring day, not blowing all your big powers as fast as possible (nova mode with Quicken Spell if you can) and then trying to eek out a few more encounters running on fumes.
@Lawrence DuBois - Even if attack cantrips eclipsed some 1st or 2nd level attack spells it wouldn't be a disaster since there are plenty of utility spells to make those low level slots worthwhile. Anyhow, there's probably a lot of middle ground between "attack cantrips are basically not worth the standard action it takes to use them" and "attack cantrips are overpowered". I think the official rules are way closer to the former than the latter and that gives house rulers some space to work in.
@Alex Trebek's Stunt Double - One DM I play with has been running us through a dungeon with lots of echoes where anything explosive or noisy like Fireball instantly alerts all monsters in that area of the dungeon. Fireball might not seem like the spell DMs should worry about discouraging, but honestly it is the spell that most of our PC casters want to cast most, and I guess the DM feels like it makes sense it would get noticed in this particular dunegon. People have still gotten excited and cast it when it wasn't really needed a few times, leading to an onslaught of monsters and some tactical withdrawals from the dungeon.
I'm used to playing 5th Edition now, so I'm also used to most spellcasters having someway of regaining expended spell slots (wizards through Arcane Recovery, Sorcerers through Sorcery Points, Warlocks taking a short rest, Circle of the Land doing the druid version of Arcane Recovery, etc.). In fact, only clerics don't have a way of regaining spent spell slots, but they can replenish their Divine Channel ability with short rests.
Also, in 5th Edition, low level spells are more potent than Pathfinder. Also, spell level, not caster level, determines how powerful a spell is. So you can use your higher level slots for more potent low level spells, like gaining more missiles with magic missile. Basically, "meta-magic" is built into the system without using feats (not counting the Sorcerer's actual metamagic class feature...). Also, there are some low level spells, like shield and misty step which stay really useful at higher character levels while still using up lower level spell slots.
Long story short: With combat competent cantrips, low level spells can still remain useful for utility purposes.
A small invisible enemy NPC may have lifted the pouch with a good enough sleight of hand to put a stall on the high level spells being blown too soon.
This only works once (ever; not once per campaign). After you get your player with this, every wizard will have 30 spell-component pouches. They cost 1gp after all.
This only works once (ever not once per campaign). After you get your player with this, every wizard will have 30 spell-component pouches. They cost 1gp after all.
A small invisible enemy NPC may have lifted the pouch with a good enough sleight of hand to put a stall on the high level spells being blown too soon.
Heck, every character in the party will have a couple spare spell component pouches to share!
Combat advice, battle cry and dazzling display are all excellent feats usually associated with martial types but just as useful for casters. I think of them as spells with unlimited uses per day.
This only works once (ever; not once per campaign). After you get your player with this, every wizard will have 30 spell-component pouches. They cost 1gp after all.
A small invisible enemy NPC may have lifted the pouch with a good enough sleight of hand to put a stall on the high level spells being blown too soon.They can get as many spell component pouches as they like, but the rules on preparing spells are quite clear, you prepare spells for your spell pouch, not any spell pouch or all spell pouches you have. A pouch is a really carefully stacked thing, with just the right prepared components to be used as the spell is being cast. He'd need to spend at least 15 minutes prepping a new spell component pouch.
Citation needed. Actually no. Don't bother. I have the actual rules right here:
Rest
To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions
If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.
Preparation Environment
To prepare any spell, a wizard must have enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration. The wizard's surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from distractions. Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration, as does any injury or failed saving throw the character might experience while studying. Wizards also must have access to their spellbooks to study from and sufficient light to read them. There is one major exception: a wizard can prepare a read magic spell even without a spellbook.
Spell Preparation Time
After resting, a wizard must study his spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If he wants to prepare all his spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of his daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.
Spell Selection and Preparation
Until he prepares spells from his spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that he already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, he chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that he has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.
When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, he can repeat the preparation process as often as he likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. He cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.
Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. a spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
Prepared Spell Retention
Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in his mind as a nearly cast spell until he uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until he abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character's mind.
Death and Prepared Spell Retention
If a spellcaster dies, all prepared spells stored in his mind are wiped away. Potent magic (such as raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection) can recover the lost energy when it recovers the character.
As you can see the word spell component pouch doesn't even appear in that text and RAW any pouch can be used to cast any prepared spells for the day. This is because a spell component pouch is "is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch."
I'm not sure where you got the idea that spell preparation has anything to do with spell component pouches, or that it is "quite clear" but that is 100% incorrect and has no basis in the rules.
And honestly, even then stealing spell component pouches is pointless anyway since smart casters keep their spell component pouches inside their robes, where they are immune from things like this happening.
Invent a new feat: Spell Recovery . While resting a spellcaster may replenish new spells at any time. It takes 10 minutes per spell level to memorise one new spell.
So if you have the situation mentioned in the opening post you could rest for 30 minutes in the dungeon and replenish three 1st level spells.
Spreading out the mooks so much that a Fireball can only hit one of them seems like it would restrict encounter design more than I'd like. I think we're a little off topic anyhow as far as how to keep spellcasters active longer. Stuff like, "Make resting in the dungeon really risky so that casters conserve spells" might work within the current rules at least to a certain degree. Beyond that various house rules have been suggested, but I think peer pressure from the DM and other players will always be part of the answer if resting would make the caster PC more powerful than not resting.
You can put a time limit on the mission, imply that if the PCs stop the monsters will deploy new defenses or get reinforcements, etc. You could also just ridicule the casters for wanting to go back to sleep 2 hours after they woke up. If the DM is strict about only getting back spells once per day (not once per 8 hours of sleep) that can provide some roleplaying ammo and make camping in the dungeon seem like an even worse idea. I'm not saying that every DM must push caster PCs beyond the resource management limits they're comfortable with, just that these might be ways to do it.
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RAWOkay, easy there pardner, I'm saying it's pretty clear the "assumption" of the material components in a spell component pouch is that it has the material components for the spells you've actually prepared. Otherwise the pouch would be huge because there are just so many spells with material components, it would be a sack full. That's is clear enough for me.
And if we're going to be RAW about this, I must have missed the part in sleight of hand about where you can put objects on your person to be made immune to sleight of hand yet still at absolutely no impediment to their ordinary use. I mean if its easy enough to reach the pouch to get it, what stops an invisible creature sidling up to grab it?
I think it's actually very reasonable for a GM to employ such a trick as and when it's necessary, to stop could be a disastrously wasteful use of spells by a retroactive pouch lift. Don't get so defensive, this is in the Wizard's favour, to stop them making a huge mistake. And it's a one off trick, you don't need to counter it by getting eschew materials.
One obvious counter is a decoy pouch. That can be a bit of fun, have the pouch be in a water-canteen holder on your belt and an elaborate looking spell-component pouch which has something shiny inside and... an Explosive Rune. So a cheeky little gnome tries the same trick, makes off with it and when they take a look inside they find emblazoned on it:
"Sticks and Stones may break my bones but Runes will do 6d6 dam-" KABOOM! in some cave off to the side.
I have no idea why some people try to invent rules interpretation that ARE NOT IN THE RULES! The rules Anzyr quotes show that there is NO mention of spell component pouches in the spell preparation rules. Your assumption is just that an assumption.
Why do GM'S feel that they have to force this stuff on players? I nevery ask about spell component pouches in the games I run, but then again I've never taken some ones spell book either. How is it fun make a player feel completely useless?
I think the component pouch shenanigans sound kind of silly. On the other hand, if you play as a Fighter there's a Rust Monster and a Grey Ooze to destroy your armor and weapon, usually resulting in mirthful schadenfreude for the rest of the group. Maybe subjecting Wizards to the same sorts of pranks and hazing wouldn't be all bad.