Sort of. If your system breaks down (not necessarily in the sense that it mechanically doesn't work- you can resolve a D&D Fighter hacking through 1,000 normal dudes, but it's unplayably tedious) with high numbers of combatants, and small numbers of dudes fighting large numbers of dudes is something you want or need to handle, you're going to need some sort of abstraction or mechanic to resolve that. Troops are an acceptable, if imperfect, compromise. The mechanics of how a troop is actually formed by a large number of weaker combatants are janky/nonexistent, which sucks, but it's a workable concept. Other systems have had more or less success with plays on the same ideas (4e minions for example are on the less side, for reasons including but not limited to badass "demon minions" getting gibbed by a 1st level character throwing a rock).
I'm not even against the concept of class grafts, but I think Pathfinder Unchained implements them poorly and it doesn't look like Starfinder has changed them, if First Contact is anything to go off of. It outputs NPCs that are ostensibly the exact same thing a PC can be, but don't actually look much like those classes in play and either have abilities that are bizarrely modified or missing. I think making a truly effective version of them that hooks into a monster generation system that looks anything like the Pathfinder Unchained system would be difficult, if not impossible.
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You know, this whole conversation about the specific points of how monsters are different from PCs in the stat blocks per the Pathfinder Unchained rules is moot, right? Why? Well, because we have been told that the monster creation rules in Starfinder are based on those rules, not imported whole cloth. I know this because I heard it said at a panel with the developers for Starfinder at PaizoCon. I would challenge anyone to find where the developers stated that it is exactly the same monster creation rules as Pathfinder Unchained. Arguing the specifics isn't going to accomplish anything. Will they be different, yes they will, but we do not know exactly how. First Contact was not the rules of the game that went to print. We know that as fact. I know this is the speculation thread and all, but getting into an argument over the specifics of what is, at best, an educated guess that may not even be true, isn't in the spirit of the thread. So, until that specific information is revealed, I don't see the point in this argument other than to detract from the fun speculation that was going on before this all began.
More relevantly, monsters work that way now. How often can a 3rd level wizard cast invisibility? How often can a quasit do so?From what we've seen so far, monsters and NPCs are generated the same way. NPCs just use Class Grafts, same as the basic PFU monster generation system Starfinder modifies. Which had the exact same problem, where a 5th level NPC wizard can cast infinite magic missiles.Except a 5tl level npc really can't cast infinite magic missiles, because they won't have enough time to in an encounter. Action economy and the fact that four highly motivated pcs are trying to kill them means that it's not likely to be able to cast its limited use spells, much less at will.
At will just means it will never run out in this encounter. If it's a npc ally and they might actually have meaning to track the usage throughout the day, build the npc as an actual caster class and just remove stamina. Or not.
Kill them? Please. If I were a PC and my enemies suddenly had infinite magic missles, I'd very much consider Dominating them instead.
Personally, I find the topic really engaging and don't feel like it's an argument at all. Talking about game design concepts is fun for me (and I think you're wrong that it's a moot point- there are core aspects of that system that definitely won't be changed and ones that we know stick around). But you're right that this probably isn't the place for it, so I'll drop it.
More on topic: It'd be cool to see more support for concepts that bridge gaps in capability. It's probably not going to be prestige classes, but I'd love to see a way for a Fighter Man whose marketable skills are shooting things and surviving being shot at to transform themselves into something more appropriate when that concept hits its expiration date. Like Darth Fighter Man.
Personally, I find the topic really engaging and don't feel like it's an argument at all. Talking about game design concepts is fun for me (and I think you're wrong that it's a moot point- there are core aspects of that system that definitely won't be changed and ones that we know stick around). But you're right that this probably isn't the place for it, so I'll drop it.
More on topic: It'd be cool to see more support for concepts that bridge gaps in capability. It's probably not going to be prestige classes, but I'd love to see a way for a Fighter Man whose marketable skills are shooting things and surviving being shot at to transform themselves into something more appropriate when that concept hits its expiration date. Like Darth Fighter Man.
I personally hope the talent system will at least somewhat deliver on this.
Given that the talents are designed to be features you pick from a list at given levels, we might be lucky enough that that's enough incentive for developers to design them as interesting as spells.
While I have a huge problem with dissociated mechanics, they mostly bug me when they pertain to player characters. Pathfinder avoids the issue relatively well (although some where introduced in recent rule books like the Weapon Master's Handbook).
The monsters having abilities that work differently than the PCs are fine. However, I find it dissociating that PCs seemingly have a magical resource called Stamina Points which monsters don't get.
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The monsters having abilities that work differently than the PCs are fine. However, I find it dissociating that PCs seemingly have a magical resource called Stamina Points which monsters don't get.
It's just a game mechanic to explain imperial stormtrooper marksmanship academy. Stormtroopers are precise, deadly soldiers who hit everyone except the heroes. That's because they're pcs and better at dodging.
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Stamina yes but isnt stamina much slower to recover? I dont think players will feel nearly as comfortable dipping into their stamina reserves as they have been with HP in Pathfinder.I meant PCs. The whole discussion was about how PCs of species with only 2 HP such as goblins would be easily killable at level 1, and I was saying I disagree because Stamina.Species with only 2 HP still get the same Stamina as other members of the same class, though.So far we haven't seen any indication that monster have stamina points at all.
Stamina seems much easier to recover. You just need to spend 10 minutes resting and spend a healing surge resolve point to fully recover your stamina points, and damage comes off stamina points first.
Hp can be recovered by healing serums, spells, and channeling, but those seem like more limited resources than stamina.
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The whole War of the World's effect? i expect most explorer kit's will included pill forms of resist disease or remove disease, nano-bots plus some basic magic infusion to knock out most general nuissance bugs. i wonder if there are going to be first contact expectations, like staying in an enviromentally sealed contact suit until sufficient medical analysis has been conducted or quarrantine upon return from new worlds.Can we go back to the blatantly wild speculation about games and put the discussion if stat blocks are good or not in a new thread?
*thinks about something to speculate about*
I wonder of there are diseases in the vore book, I mean they probably work similar to pathfinder but since we got a whole galaxy to explore there are also a lot of possibilities for more or less disgusting sicknesses...which might even affect different species in different ways. Lets be honest a flu that is a nuisance for humanoids could be lethal for some reptile species and insectoid might not be able to contract it in the first place
Even level 1 environmental suits can be fully sealed and provide 24 hours of life support. In the twitch game Owen ran, everyone was sealed when exploring the unknown planet. It seems like being fully sealed is going to be SOP unless there is some really pressing need for why not.
Essentially, monsters do not get Stamina Points because they lack the need to rest/recuperate between combats- they are defeated or not.
Really? You've never experienced or run an encounter in which a monster flees?
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Really? You've never experienced or run an encounter in which a monster flees?Essentially, monsters do not get Stamina Points because they lack the need to rest/recuperate between combats- they are defeated or not.
Sure I have. I don't need an extra entry on a statblock to tell me what happens, is all I'm saying.
If the PCs subsequently take the effort to heal up before pursuing, the creature will likewise be healed the next time they're encountered.
The PCs need to be able to heal between encounters. Monsters don't.
Support NPCs (such as torchbearers, henchmen, etc.) probably do, and so they should probably have Stamina.
I wonder if that was just adventurer paranoia or if it really is a concern to contract space malaria...Even level 1 environmental suits can be fully sealed and provide 24 hours of life support. In the twitch game Owen ran, everyone was sealed when exploring the unknown planet. It seems like being fully sealed is going to be SOP unless there is some really pressing need for why not.The whole War of the World's effect? i expect most explorer kit's will included pill forms of resist disease or remove disease, nano-bots plus some basic magic infusion to knock out most general nuissance bugs. i wonder if there are going to be first contact expectations, like staying in an enviromentally sealed contact suit until sufficient medical analysis has been conducted or quarrantine upon return from new worlds.Can we go back to the blatantly wild speculation about games and put the discussion if stat blocks are good or not in a new thread?
*thinks about something to speculate about*
I wonder of there are diseases in the vore book, I mean they probably work similar to pathfinder but since we got a whole galaxy to explore there are also a lot of possibilities for more or less disgusting sicknesses...which might even affect different species in different ways. Lets be honest a flu that is a nuisance for humanoids could be lethal for some reptile species and insectoid might not be able to contract it in the first place
The downside, of course, is that you're protected from cosmic rays and thus cannot spontaneously develop superpowers.
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The downside, of course, is that you're protected from cosmic rays and thus cannot spontaneously develop superpowers.I wonder if that was just adventurer paranoia or if it really is a concern to contract space malaria...Even level 1 environmental suits can be fully sealed and provide 24 hours of life support. In the twitch game Owen ran, everyone was sealed when exploring the unknown planet. It seems like being fully sealed is going to be SOP unless there is some really pressing need for why not.The whole War of the World's effect? i expect most explorer kit's will included pill forms of resist disease or remove disease, nano-bots plus some basic magic infusion to knock out most general nuissance bugs. i wonder if there are going to be first contact expectations, like staying in an enviromentally sealed contact suit until sufficient medical analysis has been conducted or quarrantine upon return from new worlds.Can we go back to the blatantly wild speculation about games and put the discussion if stat blocks are good or not in a new thread?
*thinks about something to speculate about*
I wonder of there are diseases in the vore book, I mean they probably work similar to pathfinder but since we got a whole galaxy to explore there are also a lot of possibilities for more or less disgusting sicknesses...which might even affect different species in different ways. Lets be honest a flu that is a nuisance for humanoids could be lethal for some reptile species and insectoid might not be able to contract it in the first place
Pfft. If the cosmic ray was strong enough to give you a really good power set than no puny enviromental suit would be enough to stop it.
Also, this needs to be a Graft that can be applied to PCs now.
A Half-elemental template?
A Half-elemental template?The downside, of course, is that you're protected from cosmic rays and thus cannot spontaneously develop superpowers.I wonder if that was just adventurer paranoia or if it really is a concern to contract space malaria...Even level 1 environmental suits can be fully sealed and provide 24 hours of life support. In the twitch game Owen ran, everyone was sealed when exploring the unknown planet. It seems like being fully sealed is going to be SOP unless there is some really pressing need for why not.The whole War of the World's effect? i expect most explorer kit's will included pill forms of resist disease or remove disease, nano-bots plus some basic magic infusion to knock out most general nuissance bugs. i wonder if there are going to be first contact expectations, like staying in an enviromentally sealed contact suit until sufficient medical analysis has been conducted or quarrantine upon return from new worlds.Can we go back to the blatantly wild speculation about games and put the discussion if stat blocks are good or not in a new thread?
*thinks about something to speculate about*
I wonder of there are diseases in the vore book, I mean they probably work similar to pathfinder but since we got a whole galaxy to explore there are also a lot of possibilities for more or less disgusting sicknesses...which might even affect different species in different ways. Lets be honest a flu that is a nuisance for humanoids could be lethal for some reptile species and insectoid might not be able to contract it in the first place
Pfft. If the cosmic ray was strong enough to give you a really good power set than no puny enviromental suit would be enough to stop it.
Also, this needs to be a Graft that can be applied to PCs now.
So...fire Elemental, Rock Elemental, Force Elemental and...Rubber Elemental I guess? :P
to be honest never thought about it that way but it makes sense in a way
I haven't given it much thought besides the obvious
Forcefields and invisibility don't exactly scream 'air' for me
Well invisibility should, given that air is invisible, right? Mr. Fantastic as water was the one I struggled more with lol