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This FAQ request is in response to an ultimately unrelated thread, linked here, where a disagreement with how the item Snapleaf works more or less derailed the original question, and I'd like an official ruling on it, if possible.
This crystalline carving looks like a hand-sized tree leaf. It is usually worn around the neck on a strap so it is within easy reach, but can be affixed to a belt or clothing just like a badge.
While falling, the bearer can snap and destroy the snapleaf as an immediate action to gain the benefits of feather fall and invisibility. The duration of the two effects work independently; ending one early does not affect the other. The item cannot be activated to provide just one of these two effects; they are always activated simultaneously.
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
Based on the above quotes, my understanding is that Snapleaf can only be used as an Immediate Action if you're falling, but can still be used on your turn as a Swift Action without the "while falling" caveat. The other interpretation was that regardless of when used (Immediate Action on another's turn, or a Swift Action on my turn), I can only use a Snapleaf if I'm falling. Period. Can I get a ruling on this, please?
Snapleaf can be used as an immediate action while falling. This means, as long as you didn't take a swift action on your turn (or another immediate action) then you can choose to activate it while falling.
What it does not say is what type of action it is to activate the item when you are not falling. Therefore it actually defaults to being a standard action to activate, not a swift action. This is the default action required for activateable (spelling?) items unless otherwise stated.
That may not be the intended effect, but it actually falls in line with the item's power level and cost to not allow insta-invis in otherwise normal circumstances.
Can you link this, please?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm pretty sure that RAPDTI is 'standard normally, immediate if you're falling.'
I know I used it (grudgingly*) once to stay alive by 'full attack then on his turn use immediate to turn invisible' so I'd assume the PDT's intent was to not have it work as '250 go invisible as a swift item' thing.
I'm pretty sure that RAPDTI is 'standard normally, immediate if you're falling.'
I know I used it (grudgingly*) once to stay alive by 'full attack then on his turn use immediate to turn invisible' so I'd assume the PDT's intent was to not have it work as '250 go invisible as a swift item' thing.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. What is RAPDTI? For the record, the item costs 750g.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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"Rules as Pathfinder Design Team Intended."
So now post Errata snapleaf is "Standard action (default setting for item activation) unless falling, then you can use an immediate."
There's no longer anyway to use it as an immediate/swift, unless you're falling.
Honestly I don't know if that was the original designer's intent. I'd be curious in his thoughts.
And I goofed on the cost. IDHTUEBIFOM.
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Even by that interpretation, all you really need to do is jump up, then activate it on the way down. Jumping isn't even an action; though it is typically done as part of movement.
After the errata, it doesn't do anything when you activate it as a standard action. The "While falling..." conditions when the effects occur. Sure, you could activate as a standard action but since you're not falling, it doesn't get destroyed and you don't get any effects.
Even by that interpretation, all you really need to do is jump up, then activate it on the way down. Jumping isn't even an action; though it is typically done as part of movement.
So since it's part of movement you'd need to do a move action to do a standing jump.
I'm not sure how a 5ft foot jump would work
Can someone link this errata, please?
The item description does not say you have to be falling to get the benefit of the immediate action use, but it could be the intent. I will press the FAQ button.
Thank you for the cite. I went to the page, and found what you quoted. The next sentance after what you quoted is:... Therefore it actually defaults to being a standard action to activate, not a swift action. This is the default action required for activateable (spelling?) items unless otherwise stated. ...Can you link this, please?I am terrible at making links, but it's under Using Items in the Magic Item section of the d20pfsrd.
Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise.It then goes on to list the four common activation methods; Command word, use-activated, spell-completion, and spell-trigger, which all also default to standard actions. I mention that because it will help you find the pertinent sentence easier above them.
Even by that interpretation, all you really need to do is jump up, then activate it on the way down. Jumping isn't even an action; though it is typically done as part of movement.If you want to believe that or rule that you can do that, then fine. That has no bearing on this topic which is what action using a snapleaf is when you are not falling. Or whether it can even be used at all when not falling. It certainly doesn't need to be sidetracked into ways to abuse action economy.
However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.
So if a Snapleaf only ever gave you the effects of Feather Fall, this would fit my interpretation 100%, as Feather Fall is an Immediate Action cast. Since it also grants Invisibility, which is a Standard Action cast, I would now interpret it to indeed be a Standard Action to activate on your turn if you're not falling. Does anyone have anything to add to this?
@Ravingdork:
Creatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Creatures that take lethal damage from a fall land in a prone position.
Honestly, i wouldn't consider "falling" to be any distance below 10', as the Falling rules don't even kick in until that point. So unless you can jump 10' straight up (which isn't impossible, I guess), I wouldn't consider jumping to be a way to activate a Snapleaf.
Can someone link this errata, please?
Go to the product page here, then move down a touch until you get to "Errata".
The relevant text:
Page 320—In snapleaf, in the third sentence (the first sentence at the top of the page), change “Activating a snapleaf is” to “While falling, the bearer can snap and destroy the snapleaf as”, and change “and gives the bearer” to “to gain”.That makes the text this:
This crystalline carving looks like a hand-sized tree leaf. It is usually worn around the neck on a strap so it is within easy reach, but can be affixed to a belt or clothing just like a badge.
While falling, the bearer can snap and destroy the snapleaf as an immediate action to gain the benefits of feather fall and invisibility. The duration of the two effects work independently; ending one early does not affect the other. The item cannot be activated to provide just one of these two effects; they are always activated simultaneously.
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The item description does not say you have to be falling to get the benefit of the immediate action use, but it could be the intent. I will press the FAQ button.
It says "While falling, the bearer can snap and destroy the snapleaf as an immediate action to gain the benefits of feather fall and invisibility."
It gives no other benefits or uses. I don't see any way to read this other than it only works while falling.
The item description does not say you have to be falling to get the benefit of the immediate action use, but it could be the intent. I will press the FAQ button.It says "While falling, the bearer can snap and destroy the snapleaf as an immediate action to gain the benefits of feather fall and invisibility."
It gives no other benefits or uses. I don't see any way to read this other than it only works while falling.
I didnt see the errata reference before. That changes things. In that case it seems to be a standard action when not falling.
I didnt see the errata reference before. That changes things. In that case it seems to be a standard action when not falling.The item description does not say you have to be falling to get the benefit of the immediate action use, but it could be the intent. I will press the FAQ button.It says "While falling, the bearer can snap and destroy the snapleaf as an immediate action to gain the benefits of feather fall and invisibility."
It gives no other benefits or uses. I don't see any way to read this other than it only works while falling.
What effects would that provide, though? The new text only details effects that occur while falling and taking a swift action. There's no text any more that provides details on effects that occur outside those conditions.
What effects would that provide, though? The new text only details effects that occur while falling and taking a swift action. There's no text any more that provides details on effects that occur outside those conditions.I didnt see the errata reference before. That changes things. In that case it seems to be a standard action when not falling.The item description does not say you have to be falling to get the benefit of the immediate action use, but it could be the intent. I will press the FAQ button.It says "While falling, the bearer can snap and destroy the snapleaf as an immediate action to gain the benefits of feather fall and invisibility."
It gives no other benefits or uses. I don't see any way to read this other than it only works while falling.
The item's last sentence of text says both abilities are activated together so even as a standard action the feather fall is activated, even if it can't do anything because you are not falling.
Basically, the feather fall is wasted.
I think they should have just allowed the abilities to be activated separately, but that is not an option.
What effects would that provide, though? The new text only details effects that occur while falling and taking a swift action. There's no text any more that provides details on effects that occur outside those conditions.I didnt see the errata reference before. That changes things. In that case it seems to be a standard action when not falling.The item description does not say you have to be falling to get the benefit of the immediate action use, but it could be the intent. I will press the FAQ button.It says "While falling, the bearer can snap and destroy the snapleaf as an immediate action to gain the benefits of feather fall and invisibility."
It gives no other benefits or uses. I don't see any way to read this other than it only works while falling.
The item's last sentence of text says both abilities are activated together so even as a standard action the feather fall is activated, even if it can't do anything because you are not falling.
Basically, the feather fall is wasted.
I think they should have just allowed the abilities to be activated separately, but that is not an option.
Well, I wouldn't say wasted; you'd still have 4 turns to throw yourself off something high :)
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So now post Errata snapleaf is "Standard action (default setting for item activation) unless falling, then you can use an immediate."
This is how I read it, and I'm pretty sure I've seen posts in the past from developers saying it wasn't supposed to be an immediate action invisibility. The errata seems to enforce that concept.
I don't think it does anything if you try to activate it while you aren't falling. The only abilities it has are the ones you activate while falling.
That could be the intent. In that case they need to errata it again.
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This crystalline carving looks like a hand-sized tree leaf. It is usually worn around the neck on a strap so it is within easy reach, but can be affixed to a belt or clothing just like a badge.
While falling, the bearer can snap and destroy a snapleaf as an immediate action to gain the benefits of feather fall and invisibility. The duration of the two effects work independently; ending one early does not affect the other. The item cannot be activated to provide just one of these two effects; they are always activated simultaneously.
I don't see anything in there that allows you to activate it when you are not falling. It simply doesn't have any ability apart from the one you can activate while falling.
Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.
...
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
Snapleaf's description indicates otherwise when one is falling: it says it is activated as an immediate action in that case. It does not state otherwise when one is not falling, nor does it say it may only be used while falling. As such, activating a Snapleaf when one is not falling is a Standard action as specified by the general rules for Magic Items.
Just jump, then activate it during your short airtime. That way you're falling, and the item can activate.
The item specifies when and how it can be activated. There is no valid argument that you can activate it as a standard action. "Default" is what you use when there's no other system in place.
As for the jumping and then activating, that is not something you want in your game. No-slot immediate action invisibility whenever you want is way underpriced at 750 a pop. Fortunately, you as the GM gets to decide whether jumping up and down qualifies as "falling".
Just jump, then activate it during your short airtime. That way you're falling, and the item can activate.Which begs the question "would the invisibility expire when the feather fall does, when you land after the jump?"
It no longer has the 5 round language.
"The duration of the two effects work independently; ending one early does not affect the other."
Ergo, if allowed: jump -> activate -> land -> feather fall ends, invisibility continues for the remainder of its duration (5 minutes).
The item specifies when and how it can be activated. There is no valid argument that you can activate it as a standard action. "Default" is what you use when there's no other system in place.
As for the jumping and then activating, that is not something you want in your game. No-slot immediate action invisibility whenever you want is way underpriced at 750 a pop. Fortunately, you as the GM gets to decide whether jumping up and down qualifies as "falling".
The system in place is the universal Magic Item rules, which state that activating a magic item is a Standard Action unless otherwise stated. The "otherwise stated" in this case is unfortunately not as clear as it could be.
I agree about not being able to jump to activate it. The rules for falling don't account for any distances below 10', so that should be the starting point for any distance mechanically considered to be falling.
The system in place is the universal Magic Item rules, which state that activating a magic item is a Standard Action unless otherwise stated. The "otherwise stated" in this case is unfortunately not as clear as it could be.
If you apply the same standard of documentation, every swift action magic item just became trash, because none of the explicitly say that they don't require a standard action.
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If you apply the same standard of documentation, every swift action magic item just became trash, because none of the explicitly say that they don't require a standard action.The system in place is the universal Magic Item rules, which state that activating a magic item is a Standard Action unless otherwise stated. The "otherwise stated" in this case is unfortunately not as clear as it could be.
There are two valid readings of the item:
- Immediate action while falling, cannot be used unless one is falling
- Immediate action while falling, standard action if not falling
This is because the item does not indicate one way or the other that it can only be used while falling. It indicates an action type used while falling, but elides any mention of use while implanted on terra firma. Given the two valid readings, I choose the one that says you can use it while standing as a standard action because the other reading makes no sense to me -- are you suddenly incapable of breaking a fragile object intentionally while standing still?
If you apply the same standard of documentation, every swift action magic item just became trash, because none of the explicitly say that they don't require a standard action.The system in place is the universal Magic Item rules, which state that activating a magic item is a Standard Action unless otherwise stated. The "otherwise stated" in this case is unfortunately not as clear as it could be.
There are two valid readings of the item:
- Immediate action while falling, cannot be used unless one is falling
- Immediate action while falling, standard action if not falling
This is because the item does not indicate one way or the other that it can only be used while falling. It indicates an action type used while falling, but elides any mention of use while implanted on terra firma. Given the two valid readings, I choose the one that says you can use it while standing as a standard action because the other reading makes no sense to me -- are you suddenly incapable of breaking a fragile object intentionally while standing still?
That is a very convincing and sensible argument.
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are you suddenly incapable of breaking a fragile object intentionally while standing still?
Maybe. It's magic. Maybe if you aren't falling, the item has normal AC, HP and hardness for an magical item of it's size, and the item magically "knows" when you're falling and then allows you to break it. It also "doesn't make sense" that it suddenly takes a much larger investment of time and effort to break a fragile object intentionally while standing still, but that's what the rules imply.
Golarion is sufficiently from out world that none of us are really qualified to decide what does and doesn't make sense.
I can attribute the difference in action time to adrenaline -- while falling, you actually manage to perform the same action faster than if you were calm. Is it a perfect reason? No, but neither is any other reason in support of why (flavor-wise) it is one way but not the other way. Physical actions in Golarion typically take after how it works in real life because we naturally expect to be able to do things in-game that we're able to do in real life. It doesn't have to be that way, and with magic in play it often isn't, but it's a basis of expectation that is difficult to argue with and will only yield unsatisfactory answers when you handwave away "no, you cannot perform that simple task because magic."
From that standpoint, saying "this thing you can break while falling to get an effect" is able to be broken to get said effect even while not falling is the most sensible option because it meshes with how we'd expect things to work in real life if it were just some mundane breakable object.
As I stated earlier, both readings are valid so if you want to play that it only works if you're falling at your table, more power to you. I just want to state my position and what is backing my position because I believe it is the more reasonable of the two options and therefore the one least likely to cause friction at the table if the question comes up.
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Can a paladin use a snapleaf while they are performing an evil act?