Spell Storing armor cheese? Will it work?


Rules Questions


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If i have spell storing armor and it have, lets say, invisibility in it. I do full attack against the enemy (3 attacks), hit him twice with my sword, then third attack, i remove my hand from the sword and punch myself in the face - activate spell storing on the creature that hit me (myself), and get invisibility.

That sound really dumb, but does it work RAW?

Silver Crusade

Heh.

Silly, but looking over the Spell Storing ability on Armor I actually don't see any reason it wouldn't work.


I guess it is an alternative to a "healing shiv" XD

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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Touching yourself is never considered in the rules, so this is entirely "Ask your GM".


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DarkPhoenixx wrote:

If i have spell storing armor and it have, lets say, invisibility in it. I do full attack against the enemy (3 attacks), hit him twice with my sword, then third attack, i remove my hand from the sword and punch myself in the face - activate spell storing on the creature that hit me (myself), and get invisibility.

That sound really dumb, but does it work RAW?

By RAW, yes.

Although, also by RAW, you need to successfully make an attack against your own AC first; the attack roll to punch yourself shouldn't be an automatic success. The spell storing ability specifies a "melee attack or touch attack."

Non-attack touches by allies would also not be a valid trigger for the ability: i.e., pre-casting a round/level duration buff spell in the armor and activating it when a party member (or yourself) casts a touch range buff on you to effectively activate two buffs in a round.


If you lose initiative, an enemy could hit you first and become invisible!

Silver Crusade

whew wrote:
If you lose initiative, an enemy could hit you first and become invisible!

lol, not how it works.


Rysky wrote:
whew wrote:
If you lose initiative, an enemy could hit you first and become invisible!
lol, not how it works.

Oops, you're right. Immediate action to activate. DOH!


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James Risner wrote:
Touching yourself is never considered in the rules, so this is entirely "Ask your GM".

I feel bad for the unfortunate bachelor. Anyway...

How is it not in the rules? You do realize by stating you can't "touch yourself" (in the context to discharge a spell, of course), a very important foundation of the rules crumbles upon itself, right?

Because if I can't touch myself, then I can't make the magic happen; it's that simple. (Okay, I think I'm done with all of the inappropriate puns. Thanks, Lamontius, for possessing me for a few minutes there.)

As for it being "cheesey," the way I see it, you paid for the property to function when you're hit, and you need to have access to the spell to store it into the armor (which you have to apply per time that you use this), if you want to invalidate it because it's an abuse of the rules, then that's as much GM FIAT territory as banning Sno-Cone Wish Machines, or Nature Oracles with infinite mental stats.

It's not more overpowered than storing a Frigid Touch spell, and making an enemy invalidate his entire Full Attack routine, so I don't see how the inverse can really be all that bad. Plus, a lot of smarter enemies will be carrying around (or possess) the ability to see through Invisible enemies, so this will become an obsolete tactic in several situations; the first is just a little kneejerk to the family jewels (and a fun one at that).


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Touching yourself is never considered in the rules, so this is entirely "Ask your GM".

I feel bad for the unfortunate bachelor. Anyway...

How is it not in the rules? You do realize by stating you can't "touch yourself" (in the context to discharge a spell, of course), a very important foundation of the rules crumbles upon itself, right?

Because if I can't touch myself, then I can't make the magic happen; it's that simple. (Okay, I think I'm done with all of the inappropriate puns. Thanks, Lamontius, for possessing me for a few minutes there.)

As for it being "cheesey," the way I see it, you paid for the property to function when you're hit, and you need to have access to the spell to store it into the armor (which you have to apply per time that you use this), if you want to invalidate it because it's an abuse of the rules, then that's as much GM FIAT territory as banning Sno-Cone Wish Machines, or Nature Oracles with infinite mental stats.

It's not more overpowered than storing a Frigid Touch spell, and making an enemy invalidate his entire Full Attack routine, so I don't see how the inverse can really be all that bad. Plus, a lot of smarter enemies will be carrying around (or possess) the ability to see through Invisible enemies, so this will become an obsolete tactic in several situations; the first is just a little kneejerk to the family jewels (and a fun one at that).

There are no rules allowing a character to attack themselves, as you can only attack opponents (explicitly at least for melee attacks which is what spell storing cares about)


Just came from the succubus thread to a discussion about people hitting on themselves, someone call Lamonitus - if you say it three times he'll appear


If you can't hit yourself(debatable), at the very least your allies can hit you.

I can see having a lot of fun with that. ;)


Just use a Snapleaf. Better action economy, better effect, cheaper, no rules grey areas, no cheese.

Silver Crusade

Calth wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Touching yourself is never considered in the rules, so this is entirely "Ask your GM".

I feel bad for the unfortunate bachelor. Anyway...

How is it not in the rules? You do realize by stating you can't "touch yourself" (in the context to discharge a spell, of course), a very important foundation of the rules crumbles upon itself, right?

Because if I can't touch myself, then I can't make the magic happen; it's that simple. (Okay, I think I'm done with all of the inappropriate puns. Thanks, Lamontius, for possessing me for a few minutes there.)

As for it being "cheesey," the way I see it, you paid for the property to function when you're hit, and you need to have access to the spell to store it into the armor (which you have to apply per time that you use this), if you want to invalidate it because it's an abuse of the rules, then that's as much GM FIAT territory as banning Sno-Cone Wish Machines, or Nature Oracles with infinite mental stats.

It's not more overpowered than storing a Frigid Touch spell, and making an enemy invalidate his entire Full Attack routine, so I don't see how the inverse can really be all that bad. Plus, a lot of smarter enemies will be carrying around (or possess) the ability to see through Invisible enemies, so this will become an obsolete tactic in several situations; the first is just a little kneejerk to the family jewels (and a fun one at that).

There are no rules allowing a character to attack themselves, as you can only attack opponents (explicitly at least for melee attacks which is what spell storing cares about)

And there's no rules explicitly disallowing you to attack yourself either.

This gets into the can of worms that is "What is an 'opponent' and what is an 'ally'", both of which are very mutable concepts.

Silver Crusade

Cuup wrote:
Just use a Snapleaf. Better action economy, better effect, cheaper, no rules grey areas, no cheese.

For that you and your GM would have to narrow down when "Falling" takes into effect.


Rysky wrote:
Cuup wrote:
Just use a Snapleaf. Better action economy, better effect, cheaper, no rules grey areas, no cheese.
For that you and your GM would have to narrow down when "Falling" takes into effect.

Seems like "falling" allows it to be an Immediate Action, but I would expect that to translate to a Swift Action during your turn, unless I'm mistaken. This would let you full attack (without wasting your last attack on yourself), and Swift Action Snapleaf.

Silver Crusade

Cuup wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Cuup wrote:
Just use a Snapleaf. Better action economy, better effect, cheaper, no rules grey areas, no cheese.
For that you and your GM would have to narrow down when "Falling" takes into effect.
Seems like "falling" allows it to be an Immediate Action, but I would expect that to translate to a Swift Action during your turn, unless I'm mistaken. This would let you full attack (without wasting your last attack on yourself), and Swift Action Snapleaf.

It is an Immediate action to use the item while falling.

The question is, what constitutes "falling"? Is it as simple of hopping up and letting gravity bring you back down? Pulling your legs up so you fall prone? Or do you actually have to fall a certain distance?


Cuup wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Cuup wrote:
Just use a Snapleaf. Better action economy, better effect, cheaper, no rules grey areas, no cheese.
For that you and your GM would have to narrow down when "Falling" takes into effect.
Seems like "falling" allows it to be an Immediate Action, but I would expect that to translate to a Swift Action during your turn, unless I'm mistaken. This would let you full attack (without wasting your last attack on yourself), and Swift Action Snapleaf.

If it's a free action to jump into the air to activate a snapleaf, then adding a rule about needing to be falling has no purpose. Therefore, your interpretation is exactly what the new wording is supposed to prevent.


Immediate Action wrote:

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

The "while falling" caveat only restricts the Immediate Action. Otherwise, it's a Swift Action with no restrictions on when you can use it. What constitutes as "falling" is a whole other thread unto itself. The point is, this item can be used - is intended/designed to be used - in place of the Spell Storing shenanigans proposed here.

To directly address the OP's question, I also think this should be an ask-your-GM thing. While it's in no way OP, or breaking any aspects of the game (the Snapleaf is flat-out BETTER), it's also skirting a sub-section of rules that was never meant to be applied to Patherfinder's Combat system. Hitting yourself to gain _____ then opens the floodgates for "I attack my friend who has the Side-step feat, and purposely miss, which let's him 5' step" shenanigans. The rules don't say anything about purposely missing, and for good reason; These are just the tip of the iceberg for rules exploits that lead to all sorts of rules exploits.

So in conclusion, no, it's not RAW illegal, but unless your prepared for your table to dive down the proverbial self-hit/intended-miss rabbit hole...just use a damn Snapleaf.

Silver Crusade

Cuup wrote:
Immediate Action wrote:

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

The "while falling" caveat only restricts the Immediate Action. Otherwise, it's a Swift Action with no restrictions on when you can use it. What constitutes as "falling" is a whole other thread unto itself. The point is, this item can be used - is intended/designed to be used - in place of the Spell Storing shenanigans proposed here.

To directly address the OP's question, I also think this should be an ask-your-GM thing. While it's in no way OP, or breaking any aspects of the game (the Snapleaf is flat-out BETTER), it's also skirting a sub-section of rules that was never meant to be applied to Patherfinder's Combat system. Hitting yourself to gain _____ then opens the floodgates for "I attack my friend who has the Side-step feat, and purposely miss, which let's him 5' step" shenanigans. The rules don't say anything about purposely missing, and for good reason; These are just the tip of the iceberg for rules exploits that lead to all sorts of rules exploits.

So in conclusion, no, it's not RAW illegal, but unless your prepared for your table to dive down the proverbial self-hit/intended-miss rabbit hole...just use a damn Snapleaf.

Um no, the writing explicitly disallows using it when you aren't falling. Otherwise they would say what action to use it when not falling, or just not mention falling in the first place.

Actually the rules don't say anything about purposely missing because you can't. The closest you can do is take the -4 for non lethal or roll bluff to fake the attack, which is not the same thing and can't be cheezed in the way you suggested.


Rysky wrote:

Um no, the writing explicitly disallows using it when you aren't falling. Otherwise they would say what action to use it when not falling, or just not mention falling in the first place.

Actually the rules don't say anything about purposely missing because you can't. The closest you can do is take the -4 for non lethal or roll bluff to fake the attack, which is not the same thing and can't be cheezed in the way you suggested.

Snapleaf wrote:

This crystalline carving looks like a hand-sized tree leaf. It is usually worn around the neck on a strap so it is within easy reach, but can be affixed to a belt or clothing just like a badge.

While falling, the bearer can snap and destroy the snapleaf as an immediate action to gain the benefits of feather fall and invisibility. The duration of the two effects work independently; ending one early does not affect the other. The item cannot be activated to provide just one of these two effects; they are always activated simultaneously.

Snapleaf says you CAN use it as an Immediate Action while falling. It doesn't go on to say that you MUST be falling to use it at all. This just means you can't simply use it as Immediate Action Invisibility because an enemy is about to attack you (unless you readied an action, of course).

The rules don't say anything about purposely auto-hitting yourself, either. They're both completely absent from the rules for a very good reason. Auto-missing an ally for _____ is cheese in just the same way as auto-hitting yourself for _____.

Silver Crusade

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Cuup wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Um no, the writing explicitly disallows using it when you aren't falling. Otherwise they would say what action to use it when not falling, or just not mention falling in the first place.

Actually the rules don't say anything about purposely missing because you can't. The closest you can do is take the -4 for non lethal or roll bluff to fake the attack, which is not the same thing and can't be cheezed in the way you suggested.

Snapleaf wrote:

This crystalline carving looks like a hand-sized tree leaf. It is usually worn around the neck on a strap so it is within easy reach, but can be affixed to a belt or clothing just like a badge.

While falling, the bearer can snap and destroy the snapleaf as an immediate action to gain the benefits of feather fall and invisibility. The duration of the two effects work independently; ending one early does not affect the other. The item cannot be activated to provide just one of these two effects; they are always activated simultaneously.

Snapleaf says you CAN use it as an Immediate Action while falling. It doesn't go on to say that you MUST be falling to use it at all. This just means you can't simply use it as Immediate Action Invisibility because an enemy is about to attack you (unless you readied an action, of course).

The rules don't say anything about purposely auto-hitting yourself, either. They're both completely absent from the rules for a very good reason. Auto-missing an ally for _____ is cheese in just the same way as auto-hitting yourself for _____.

Actually, yes it does. That is the entire intention of saying while falling, you can. If it used a different action when not falling it would say so. If it didn't require falling at all why mention falling in the first place? The item can only be used while falling, it's as plain as day.

And no one said anything about auto-hitting, ever. Read over what's been said. It's been about making an attack roll.


Rysky wrote:

Actually, yes it does. That is the entire intention of saying while falling, you can. If it used a different action when not falling it would say so. If it didn't require falling at all why mention falling in the first place? The item can only be used while falling, it's as plain as day.

And no one said anything about auto-hitting, ever. Read over what's been said. It's been about making an attack roll.

But it does. in the Immediate Action rules. Most Immediate Actions have an associated trigger on when they can be used (Snake Style vs. opponent's melee attack roll, Sidestep after opponent misses, Snapleaf while falling, etc.). The Immediate Action rules says that ANY Immediate Action counts as a Swift Action, and can be used as such on your turn. The reason Snapleaf specifically lists falling in the description is to associate it with a trigger to be used as an Immediate Action. Here:

Invisibility: Standard Action
Feather Fall: Immediate Action

The only time you should be able to use Snapleaf as an Immediate Action is when using it for the same function as Feather Fall (An Immediate Action cast). Otherwise, you defer to the standard Immediate Action rules. Snapleaf doesn't go out of its way to say that this item works differently than the standard rules. Yes, your interpretation would suggest that it DOES work differently, but if this were the case, the description for the item would be crystal clear, as in "this item can ONLY be used if the user is falling, even if used as a Swift Action on the user's turn."

Silver Crusade

Cuup wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Actually, yes it does. That is the entire intention of saying while falling, you can. If it used a different action when not falling it would say so. If it didn't require falling at all why mention falling in the first place? The item can only be used while falling, it's as plain as day.

And no one said anything about auto-hitting, ever. Read over what's been said. It's been about making an attack roll.

But it does. in the Immediate Action rules. Most Immediate Actions have an associated trigger on when they can be used (Snake Style vs. opponent's melee attack roll, Sidestep after opponent misses, Snapleaf while falling, etc.). The Immediate Action rules says that ANY Immediate Action counts as a Swift Action, and can be used as such on your turn. The reason Snapleaf specifically lists falling in the description is to associate it with a trigger to be used as an Immediate Action. Here:

Invisibility: Standard Action
Feather Fall: Immediate Action

The only time you should be able to use Snapleaf as an Immediate Action is when using it for the same function as Feather Fall (An Immediate Action cast). Otherwise, you defer to the standard Immediate Action rules. Snapleaf doesn't go out of its way to say that this item works differently than the standard rules. Yes, your interpretation would suggest that it DOES work differently, but if this were the case, the description for the item would be crystal clear, as in "this item can ONLY be used if the user is falling, even if used as a Swift Action on the user's turn."

-_-

The immediate/swift rules only mention what action slot is being taken up.

You are intentionally misinterpreting the rules at this point.


Rysky wrote:
Cuup wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Actually, yes it does. That is the entire intention of saying while falling, you can. If it used a different action when not falling it would say so. If it didn't require falling at all why mention falling in the first place? The item can only be used while falling, it's as plain as day.

And no one said anything about auto-hitting, ever. Read over what's been said. It's been about making an attack roll.

But it does. in the Immediate Action rules. Most Immediate Actions have an associated trigger on when they can be used (Snake Style vs. opponent's melee attack roll, Sidestep after opponent misses, Snapleaf while falling, etc.). The Immediate Action rules says that ANY Immediate Action counts as a Swift Action, and can be used as such on your turn. The reason Snapleaf specifically lists falling in the description is to associate it with a trigger to be used as an Immediate Action. Here:

Invisibility: Standard Action
Feather Fall: Immediate Action

The only time you should be able to use Snapleaf as an Immediate Action is when using it for the same function as Feather Fall (An Immediate Action cast). Otherwise, you defer to the standard Immediate Action rules. Snapleaf doesn't go out of its way to say that this item works differently than the standard rules. Yes, your interpretation would suggest that it DOES work differently, but if this were the case, the description for the item would be crystal clear, as in "this item can ONLY be used if the user is falling, even if used as a Swift Action on the user's turn."

-_-

The immediate/swift rules only mention what action slot is being taken up.

You are intentionally misinterpreting the rules at this point.

You took the words right out of my mouth.


Made a new thread regarding this specifically. The general consensus so far is that the item is usable on your turn while you aren't falling, but as a Standard Action. Feel free to use that thread if you have more to say on the subject.

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