What you hope won't be in there.


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Liberty's Edge

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Torbyne wrote:

adamantium

Adamantium
adamantium

You're confusing Marvel Comics and Pathfinder. :) Wolverine and Ultron have adamantium. D&D and Pathfinder have adamantine. :)


Sissyl wrote:
My archer unit sank a battleship in Civilization...

... was it at least using a ship bane bow? Why didnt you cast windwall on your fleet? Why cant i have nice things and immersion?!


Samy wrote:
Torbyne wrote:

adamantium

Adamantium
adamantium
You're confusing Marvel Comics and Pathfinder. :) Wolverine and Ultron have adamantium. D&D and Pathfinder have adamantine. :)

Gah! All my beautiful points destroyed! Curses!


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Eh. If it's going to be that difficult to fight various vehicles without being in your own, the vehicle subsystems will have to be amazing, frankly. I'm not really sure I want to potentially escape the big six and have it instead be absolutely necessary to have a suit of power armor, a (hover?)tank, a jet, a surface to orbit craft, and a spaceship for your various characters if you want to actually survive what the GM will be throwing at you. Unless these vehicles are incredibly versatile and can be customized in any number of ways, that sounds frankly worse than the big six.

I'd much rather just be able to use magic, enhanced melee or ranged weapons, or special customized technological gadgets to be able to take down whatever kinds of tank, mecha, robot, or what have you...


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Feat taxes.


I have to agree that if you're a lone dude that can take out a Gundam then what's the point of the Gundam in the first place? If you're super high level that's one thing because you're basically a superhero at that point and you're probably out-CRing the Gundam but even then I'd likely expect you to have to climb it to get to the cockpit and kill the guy inside, not get in a sword fight with a giant robot and overpowering it. That's just ridiculous.


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Malwing wrote:
I have to agree that if you're a lone dude that can take out a Gundam then what's the point of the Gundam in the first place? If you're super high level that's one thing because you're basically a superhero at that point and you're probably out-CRing the Gundam but even then I'd likely expect you to have to climb it to get to the cockpit and kill the guy inside, not get in a sword fight with a giant robot and overpowering it. That's just ridiculous.

Well, I presume the point of the gundam is that the pilot does not have to be level X to be a CR X-1 threat, he is by virtue of having a gundam. In short, presuming high level characters are still fairly rare, the majority of the time the gundam does an excellent job of being a force multiplier, but a sufficiently high leveled character has the skill, personal power, magic, or more portable (but possibly either more expensive or requiring high skill to operate) technology that allows them to take down the gundam without requiring a gundam.

Ultimately, of course, this depends on what challenges exist in the setting, but one imagines that vehicles are generally going to be expensive and require their own subsystem, so, first of all, if everyone is expected to put aside the resources to acquire their very own set of vehicles to deal with general challenges, that's a lack of choice. It might be easier to do so, but there should always be a number of ways to deal with any challenge, instead of expecting there to be one and only one way.

For example, in regular Pathfinder, with flying enemies you can use a ranged weapon, have a caster cast a flight spell on you, have a potion/scroll/wand of fly, have a magic item that lets you fly, or what have you. Similarly with a mecha, you could have an ability to shut down or hinder technological devices, a powerful magical spell, extensive cybernetic enhancements, sufficiently powerful technological devices to blow it up, or even perhaps somehow blow a huge hole underneath it to trap it if it can't fly. Instead of the only possible method of dealing it to be to have another mecha.

And, of course, if everyone is expected to have power armor/mecha/tank/flying vehicle/orbital vehicle/spacecraft to actually deal with every challenge, the subsystem involving them means you're probably much less likely to use your own personal abilities which you spent a bunch of time designing, and thus you should have an equal amount of ability to customize those vehicles so it's not 'okay, dump the characters you've been using and now use these standardized character sheets for the vehicles'. Plus, of course, that alternate system had better be as fun and enjoyable as regular combat.

Otherwise, well, better to not even have such things in the game if they're going to straitjacket you into a particular less fun subsystem without any customization to make you feel like you're playing your own character.


This is one reason why I think giant robots in general should be a mythic-like overlay.

You can be so buff you can beat up a guy in a giant robot in some way. This means that you are really high level and basically a superhero and the giant robot is either piloted by a complete chump that didn't see it coming or the robot isn't that great to begin with. But the thing is that giant robots are basically a superpower on their own so I imagine putting them in the system would make them either overpowering or look stupid in context.

As a Mythic-like overlay you're in a situation where everyone has a robot of some sort and you've got a giant robot game that has the proper weight behind it. Likewise its weird to be able to take out a spaceship with a sword and a jetpack too. Basically any situation where you're trying to 'kill' something thatss basically a small city that fights back its a situation of 'everyone has one or nobody has one' or the concept is either overpowered or too lame for what it is.


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Yeah, essentially what I'm saying is that if vehicles are going to be so integrated into the game that there's going to be an entire category of normal challenges (be they other vehicles or giant alien monsters or what have you) that require you to have a vehicle to fight them at all, the vehicle rules had better be pretty fantastic and versatile and hopefully not require you to have already spent 20+% of your resources on one or be utterly screwed when your GM tosses such a creature at you.

I mean, imagine if in Pathfinder your GM said you would automatically lose against anything larger than Large unless you spent 10-20% of your WBL on something that only exists so you can fight Huge things or larger which are pretty common, just because the GM says he thinks it's more realistic than a human(oid) being able to take on such a thing, no matter how strong they are, how skilled they are, or how potent their magic. That would be pretty terrible. Especially since there's lots of creatures like that. And it would be even more terrible if you could only use a particular subsystem to do it with that might require some investment on the part of your character, or essentially just replaces your character sheet with a new character sheet you have very little ability to design.


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Dominion of the Black, like, everywhere....


JoelF847 wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:


I am hoping that they can skimp on certain things and just refer to regular Pathfinder books. There is no need for instance to reprint a ton of spells for instance, and maybe there are other elements that can also be kept out of the book. That would give more room for mechas and such.

They have to be really careful on what is and isn't covered, since it might be quite awhile until the we get another SF hardcover. If people buy this book and don't see some favorite element they really want, they might skip on it (not every group plays with 3pp material to fill those gaps).

I'm pretty sure they won't be making reference to the core book, since they've stated they want to...

See my concern here is...if this is a ~400 so book that has to have a complete section of the rules so that someone who has never played Pathfinder can play Starfinder...Where is the the space? Potentially than not only does it have to cover everything in the Pathfinder core book, but (as suggestd at Paizocon) it's also providing a rough outline of the campaign setting, new monsters, and how pathfinder races/classes fit in or can be converted, and presumably at the very least vehicle type rule systems for starships/starship combat. How is there going to be space for this if you need to include a thick spell section, or go into detail about actions, character building, etc? At some level, something has to give.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

MMCJawa wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:


I am hoping that they can skimp on certain things and just refer to regular Pathfinder books. There is no need for instance to reprint a ton of spells for instance, and maybe there are other elements that can also be kept out of the book. That would give more room for mechas and such.

They have to be really careful on what is and isn't covered, since it might be quite awhile until the we get another SF hardcover. If people buy this book and don't see some favorite element they really want, they might skip on it (not every group plays with 3pp material to fill those gaps).

I'm pretty sure they won't be making reference to the core book, since they've stated they want to...
See my concern here is...if this is a ~400 so book that has to have a complete section of the rules so that someone who has never played Pathfinder can play Starfinder...Where is the the space? Potentially than not only does it have to cover everything in the Pathfinder core book, but (as suggestd at Paizocon) it's also providing a rough outline of the campaign setting, new monsters, and how pathfinder races/classes fit in or can be converted, and presumably at the very least vehicle type rule systems for starships/starship combat. How is there going to be space for this if you need to include a thick spell section, or go into detail about actions, character building, etc? At some level, something has to give.

Well, if they have say 6 more general classes instead of 11, and possibly the balance of magic vs. tech has made magic work differently so there's only 6 spell levels (not necessarily the same power level of existing levels 1-6 spells), then that would free up a lot of room. I also imagine that the magic item section would cover both magic and tech items.


JoelF847 wrote:


Well, if they have say 6 more general classes instead of 11, and possibly the balance of magic vs. tech has made magic work differently so there's only 6 spell levels (not necessarily the same power level of existing levels 1-6 spells), then that would free up a lot of room. I also imagine that the magic item section would cover both magic and tech items.

They want the monsters to be portable, so for backwards compatibility on SLAs I think you're going to have to have to keep the spell structure pretty much the same.


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I hope it wont use mechanics like the Tech Guide.


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I hope the engineer role won't be passed off to the Rogue or some similar nonsense. It's a petty nitpick for sure but one I got to stick to my guns on.


So a combination of Star Wars and 40k. Since both have tech and magic. Just strip 40k of the religious fanaticism, Gothic, skulls everywhere bit; add all the different races from Star Wars, buff the "force"....

Actually the problem I see is this; how would a party where everyone is a different race get their gear? Factoring in weird biology and the fact not all races are going to get along at all; it would require a great deal of travel just for one character to get better equipment upon leveling. Either to a major city, space port or to a home world. Yay we spent weeks traveling so one PC could get a new armor and pistol.

Traveling is the second problem. Low level characters, unless they are a "noble" are not going to be able to afford a space going ship or a mech/giant robot of any kind.

I am a fan of giant robots and mechs, but unless the PC is enlisted in an army, a mercenary company, or a rich spoiled brat; the likely hood of them having a mech and the means to keep it running is non existent. Let alone keep ammunition in it, minus laser weapons.

I am cool with weird occult magic, warp powers and the force, but I echo all of those who don't want it to over shadow those without it.

There is no reason to reload any energy weapon that is in a mech, giant robot or any vehicle. Swapping out a battery in a handheld makes sense, but if it has its own internal power source, unlimited energy ammo while the power source is working.

No giant galaxy spanning governments, or evil corporations (like Aliens)


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Nodrog wrote:

Traveling is the second problem. Low level characters, unless they are a "noble" are not going to be able to afford a space going ship or a mech/giant robot of any kind.

I am a fan of giant robots and mechs, but unless the PC is enlisted in an army, a mercenary company, or a rich spoiled brat; the likely hood of them having a mech and the means to keep it running is non existent. Let alone keep ammunition in it, minus laser weapons.

You don't chose the Mecha, the Mecha choses you!


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I'm kind of sad the base races are all on the way out except boring old humans. Mainly just because of gnomes, though. I think gnomes, those eccentric fey constantly a desaturation away from insanity and death, would be a lot of fun in space. I hope they still exist as a rarer species.

What I don't want to see, Pt. 1:

Giffs.


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Hope they don't use the gun mechanics from PF


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Nodrog wrote:


Actually the problem I see is this; how would a party where everyone is a different race get their gear? Factoring in weird biology and the fact not all races are going to get along at all; it would require a great deal of travel just for one character to get better equipment upon leveling. Either to a major city, space port or to a home world. Yay we spent weeks traveling so one PC could get a new armor and pistol.

I read an Alastair Reynolds novel once where the armory of a ship had a bunch of ready made stand bys but the main draw was a computer with a rudimentary (i think it was classified as a Gamma level intelligence) AI, a library of every weapon schematic known and the ability to rapidly produce new weapons based off known design and user desires. Something similar to that in SF could just be input X amount of resource to a machine that has the design prints you want and produce a weapon scaled appropriate to not just your biology but exactly to your body and tendencies.

Nodrog wrote:


Traveling is the second problem. Low level characters, unless they are a "noble" are not going to be able to afford a space going ship or a mech/giant robot of any kind.

I am a fan of giant robots and mechs, but unless the PC is enlisted in an army, a mercenary company, or a rich spoiled brat; the likely hood of them having a mech and the means to keep it running is non existent. Let alone keep ammunition in it, minus laser weapons.

What about Tramps and Uglies? Ships and Mechs that are borderline unserviceable, plain old obsolete or battlefield salvage poorly slapped back together. Just as how guns are beyond starting character wealth unless you are a gunslinger the mech using class could start with a retired from service or rebuilt as a pet project mech, the pilot/captain could do the same. Make it a feat even and allow any class that wants to the option of starting off with their very own, beloved and falling apart, Serenity.


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Honestly, I don't see it as a big issue for players to start with a space ship at level 1. It certainly won't be a space yacht or the Enterprise. But think about modern day cars. They are mostly expensive, but you can get used cars for cheap. Can't forget payments of loans. There are also repod cars and private owners selling older rust buckets. And of course, there's always the local junk yard. Point is, there are plenty of ways to get a car for a reasonable price. I don't see why the same can't be true of space ships. They aren't really game breaking to be honest, and like the modern day car, is going to be a necessity if you are doing a starfaring game. You can't really take a space ship into a dungeon to fight a dragon. I think a level one space ship is fine.

And if all else fails, let them steal one and try and figure out how to use it to its full potential.

Liberty's Edge

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There's nothing wrong with buying passage on battered freighters captained by suspicious individuals either. If it was good enough for Alec Guinness it should be good enough for anyone.


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That is also true. I'd just like to keep the option of a low level starfaring adventure possible. I'd like to go zooming through hyperspace on my Millennium Falcon at level 1.


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I hope the game doesn't dictate when and how players can have ships. Put in the rules for ships, possibilities for how players can get them, but don't attach rules to acquiring a ship.

Feats attached to ship ownership sounds like Leadership - really clunky and story-restrictive.


Coffee Demon wrote:

I hope the game doesn't dictate when and how players can have ships. Put in the rules for ships, possibilities for how players can get them, but don't attach rules to acquiring a ship.

Feats attached to ship ownership sounds really clunky and restrictive.

Couldn't agree more.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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Slithery D wrote:


They want the monsters to be portable, so for backwards compatibility on SLAs I think you're going to have to have to keep the spell structure pretty much the same.

It's probably a reasonable assumption that they can assume, if you're using a Pathfinder Bestiary, that you can look up spells in the PRD.

I don't think backwards convertibility of monsters requires that every spell in a monster SLA must be in the Starfinder core book.

Liberty's Edge

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I think that every spell that *Starfinder* monsters use should be in the Starfinder book, if they want it to be a standalone game. Having said that, it's entirely possible that the Starfinder monsters won't use magic at all.

Liberty's Edge

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This is where I mention one of my favorite rules about buying any kind of spacefaring vessel:

(About buying a rocketship in the Buck Rogers XXVc game)

"We said you could buy a ship. We didn't say it would be cheap."


I hope they don't try and please everyone and end up pleasing no one.


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Trying to give everyone what they want is futile. The other thread contains requests for warhammeresque marines and orks with a k. But even if obvious expies for existing campaign universes are not included, it is difficult to include both hard scifi lighthuggers (á la Alastair Reynolds) and hyperdrives. Technology options are too diverse to include everything. Very often, tech is used simply as a flavor, anyway. Everything is cyber-, quantum-, gluon-, nano-, nanonic-, fractal-, phase-, or gravitic-something, or runs on antipositron flux cells, and the principal difference is that one flavor inflicts electrical damage and another bypasses physical armor.

I don't think anyone really expects chaos marines (unless you can enlist/entice/aggravate proteans) or timelords. There will be many familiar tropes. Tropes are fine. But I still find it weird that there is a new setting rotating into view at the terminator and some are clamoring for the same old stuff they can get by playing some other game.

Topic. I hope the following things are absent: time travel, digitizing people into the cyberworld, personality downloads or transporter buffer recordings as affordable immortality, holodeck plots (oh noes, Treerazer.exe is running wild), and clunky grimdark armor.

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Naal wrote:

I don't think anyone really expects chaos marines (unless you can enlist/entice/aggravate proteans) or timelords.

I actually do think people might reasonably expect Hellknight Marines though.


With regards to the original topic, a big thing I hope is absent are star systems/regions devoted to particular subgenres of sci-fi or are full of nods to famous properties, especially next to one another as we have seen in the Inner Sea kingdoms of Pathfinder. Putting a Star Trek region next to a Warhammer 40k region next to something inspired by Battlelords of the 23rd Century and people should reasonably wonder why the three regions haven't killed each other.


Malwing wrote:
I have to agree that if you're a lone dude that can take out a Gundam then what's the point of the Gundam in the first place? If you're super high level that's one thing because you're basically a superhero at that point and you're probably out-CRing the Gundam but even then I'd likely expect you to have to climb it to get to the cockpit and kill the guy inside, not get in a sword fight with a giant robot and overpowering it. That's just ridiculous.

My character would grow giant and fight the Gundam eye-to-eyelike area of the Gundam . . . more like Zentradi versus Veritech.


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Giant battle robot nonsense


Jack of Dust wrote:

Magic trumping every mundane method of solving problems.

Touch AC

Classes with 2 + Int skill points or less

Annoyingly long feat chains and feat taxes

Psionics. I would prefer it if they left it to Dreamscarred Press to be honest.

Wealth by Level Guidelines ever. No, not even then!

Loss of character functionality without gear.

Humans being the dominant race. Seeing humans as the newcomers would be nice.

Vancian Magic although I know it will be there.

I agree with everything you said actually. All I can add to this is that I don't want to be preoccupied with ammo while I am being a roguish smuggler with a blaster.


Malwing wrote:
I have to agree that if you're a lone dude that can take out a Gundam then what's the point of the Gundam in the first place? If you're super high level that's one thing because you're basically a superhero at that point and you're probably out-CRing the Gundam but even then I'd likely expect you to have to climb it to get to the cockpit and kill the guy inside, not get in a sword fight with a giant robot and overpowering it. That's just ridiculous.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that I don't support it but G-Gundam did have people like Master Asia who were able to cut Gundams in half with just a scarf.Soooo....Gundam itself can get weird.


Deadkitten wrote:
Malwing wrote:
I have to agree that if you're a lone dude that can take out a Gundam then what's the point of the Gundam in the first place? If you're super high level that's one thing because you're basically a superhero at that point and you're probably out-CRing the Gundam but even then I'd likely expect you to have to climb it to get to the cockpit and kill the guy inside, not get in a sword fight with a giant robot and overpowering it. That's just ridiculous.
I'm gonna go ahead and say that I don't support it but G-Gundam did have people like Master Asia who were able to cut Gundams in half with just a scarf.Soooo....Gundam itself can get weird.

I love G Gundam more than any other Gundam, but G Gundam was ridiculous and even in that context a Gundam is still a greater I pact than a +4 sword.


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The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Time travel. Unless it's implemented as a one-off backstory thing to explain retcons. Though once it gets used, it's never a one-off thing.

Well, with the Scepter of Ages a thing in the setting, Time Travel is always a thing.


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Richard Redmane wrote:
With regards to the original topic, a big thing I hope is absent are star systems/regions devoted to particular subgenres of sci-fi or are full of nods to famous properties, especially next to one another as we have seen in the Inner Sea kingdoms of Pathfinder. Putting a Star Trek region next to a Warhammer 40k region next to something inspired by Battlelords of the 23rd Century and people should reasonably wonder why the three regions haven't killed each other.

I actually hope that it is kind of kitchen sink like. The galaxy is a big place; there is plenty of room for different regions to have different feels or provide homages to different aspects of science fiction. Hell, to some extent large detailed settings like Star Trek and Star Wars already do this.


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Jack of Dust wrote:

Magic trumping every mundane method of solving problems.

....

Wealth by Level Guidelines ever. No, not even then!

Loss of character functionality without gear.

I actually see these items working against each other. If technology is sufficiently advanced so as to make spellcasting less worthwhile, then magic WON'T trump every mundane method of solving problems.

However, if you can walk into a store and for enough money buy technological devices that do all the things that used to require magic, then wealth by level and dependency on gear are actually greatly increased.

Liberty's Edge

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David knott 242 wrote:
However, if you can walk into a store and for enough money buy technological devices that do all the things that used to require magic, then wealth by level and dependency on gear are actually greatly increased.

Unless many of those things have only a nominal cost.

For example... if inter-planetary matter transport exists and costs the equivalent of a cab ride (or better yet, is effectively free) then interplanetary teleport (and regular teleport) effectively become available to everyone without any significant 'wealth by level' or 'gear' requirements.

The fact that there is an AI which has ascended to godhood would suggest that artificial intelligence is an established technology... to the point that you might expect all vehicles to be capable of self-piloting, all forms of knowledge storage and retrieval easily accessible via computer AI, intelligent plasma rifles to be as common (or more) as intelligent swords were in Pathfinder, et cetera.


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Some things would be dirt cheap -- others that are of interest more to adventurers than ordinary people would be far more expensive. Weapons and armor, for example, could have a fairly steep scale of increasing prices as they become more effective at counteracting each other.

There could be a similar arms race between teleportation and methods for blocking teleportation -- and which ultimately comes out on top depends on what sort of story situations you want to have. You don't want to invent a technology that adventure writers have to keep coming up with ways to render inoperative in order for the adventure to work.


MMCJawa wrote:
Richard Redmane wrote:
With regards to the original topic, a big thing I hope is absent are star systems/regions devoted to particular subgenres of sci-fi or are full of nods to famous properties, especially next to one another as we have seen in the Inner Sea kingdoms of Pathfinder. Putting a Star Trek region next to a Warhammer 40k region next to something inspired by Battlelords of the 23rd Century and people should reasonably wonder why the three regions haven't killed each other.
I actually hope that it is kind of kitchen sink like. The galaxy is a big place; there is plenty of room for different regions to have different feels or provide homages to different aspects of science fiction. Hell, to some extent large detailed settings like Star Trek and Star Wars already do this.

Eh, depends on how it's executed. I personally was not a fan of having the Conan Kingdom, the Heavy Metal/Cyberfantasy Kingdom, and the "gateway to hell" kingdom all right next to each other in Pathfinder. What, other then player intervention, is stopping the gateway to hell from overrunning its neighbors? What is stopping the warlord in charge of Heavy Metal from invading his neighbors and conquering them with his superior technology? what is stopping the southern kingdoms from conducting research on these artifacts and, while not replicating them, using their insights to accelerate technological progress by about a century or two?

And yes, the galaxy is a big place, all the more reason for these "cameo kingdoms" to not get squished together where they can trip over each other.


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martinaj wrote:
I'm okay with cosmic horror as a concept, but I'd much rather they use it as an inspiration for something new is far preferable to ripping creatures straight from the pages of Lovecraft's stuff, which seems to be the way it always goes. Lovecraft always seems to be afford this sacred untouchable status and fans who incorporate his stuff into their games seem completely unwillingy to adapt it, instead forcing the game world to adapt to Lovecraft, but we don't do this with other source material. We have the Whispering Tyrant instead of any number of actual fictional evil overlords, for example. We don't actually see Sauron in the world, so why is there this need to use Cthulu instead of a Cthulu substitute?

Well, I would counter that with your own statement: We have stats for the Old Ones. Now what is the one unspoken rule of RPGs, the one reason Paizo won't ever make stats for their Gods?

"If it has stats, it can be killed."

Unlike Cosmic Horror stories, in Pathfinder there are benevolent and kind (and often awesome) Gods who love you. The horrible things in the inky black between stars are something you can kill. Instead of despairingly writing in your journal until it comes for you, you can roll your inherent goodness into a ball and smack them in the face with it.

When the stars are right, Cthulhu will rise from the depths... and there will be heroes waiting to pound him right back down.

That is why I kinda do want to see the Dark Tapestry and Dominion of the Black show up in Starfinder. After Ancient wizards, corrupt queens, dark elves, evil genies, Oni warlords, Frozen witches, and Demonic invasions, the time will have finally come for them, long ago horrors lurking in the background, to step up and get their asses kicked.

Shadow Lodge

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The gateway to Abyss keeps from brimming over by virtue of a magical "iron curtain" of dimension anchors and magical force fields and the internecine feuds between different warmonger demons. There's also a near-constant wave of crusaders bolstering the neighboring kingdom charged with maintaining the magical wards and engaging in smiting.

The warlord of Numeria, Kevoth-Kul, is uninterested in warfare and content to let a cabal of technomages rule in his stead. He's doped up on space drugs 24/7 and the cabal is mostly fine with just nerding over the massive space ship next to the capitol. Mages...

The southern kingdoms, namely Lastwall, Ustalav, Razmiran and the River Kingdoms all have their own troubles to sort out before any kind of concerted effort might be made upon Numeria. For instance, Lastwall is the lynchpin that keeps Azero...Belkzen in check. Ustalav and the River Kingdoms are both fractitious confederate realms that have little interest beyond their smaller neighbours, but I'd be surprised if some of their leaders had not adopted Numerian tech to some extent(this is actually featured in an AP volume, heh) Razmiran is a big bully, but doesn't share a border with Numeria. It's also engaged in several different conflicts with its neighbours by virtue of being an aggressive militant theocracy.

I get that the kitchen sink setting is patently ridiculous, but your post kinda reminds me of those times I'm listening to a radio show and some caller wonders why we don't just invade North Korea/Iran/Russia, etc! Checks and balances, wheels within wheels.


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Muser wrote:
I get that the kitchen sink setting is patently ridiculous, but your post kinda reminds me of those times I'm listening to a radio show and some caller wonders why we don't just invade North Korea/Iran/Russia, etc! Checks and balances, wheels within wheels.

Also, if I'm DM-ing an extended campaign in Golarion, things DO upset and unbalance. Wars are fought and the canon world of Golarion transforms into something that is the product of my gaming group. That can make some AP's less appropriate, but I still find it possible to switch them around.

I see Golarion as a snapshot of a specific moment that I can enter at the beginning of a campaign, knowing full well that it's not going to be that same after we're done with it.

I also see non-adjacent nations on Golarion as out of communication with each other, for the most part. It could be that my PCs never go to Numeria; if that's the case, then whatever is there doesn't even exist. As DM, I'm happy to tone down a nation if I don't like it.

But I do like that the crazy options are there if I want them. Better to start with crazy and ramp it down, then start with boring and need to ramp it up.

Liberty's Edge

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Minor note about "If it has stats, you can kill it:" Decipher's Star Trek: The Roleplaying Game has stats for the Borg Collective. (Well, one stat, actually: the Collective's ability to resist mind melds. Individual Borg have Strength/Vitality buffs, social penalties, and can assimilate to phaser fire with an extremely convoluted mechanic.)

(SPOILER: Directly connecting your brain to the Borg Collective IS A SUPREMELY BAD IDEA and can result in serious injury and/or death. Data was extremely lucky in The Best of Both Worlds that Locutus/the Collective didn't bodyjack him.)

Anyway, no Borg. At least, not the technozombie "assimilate all non-Kazon at any cost" Borg we got in BOBW and Voyager. If there's Borg, make them technovores like they were originally supposed to be.

(Fun fact: The disappearance of Federation and Romulan observation posts that came up in TNG Season One were supposed to be the Borg's doing; the Bluegill from that episode* were supposed to be their heralds. Then the Writers' Guild strike happened.)

*You know. "Conspiracy." That episode where Picard and Riker phaser a guy until his head explodes in an embarrassingly s*#&ty special effect that somehow manages to look even worse on the Blu-Ray release.


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Kassil wrote:

I don't want to see alignment as a thing here. I'd rather have an expansion on things like the patriotic weapons and the Unchained bits about things like radiant damage.

Have allegiances and oppositions, not alignment.

In any universe where Good and Evil are actual (meta)physical forces, alignment makes sense.

In worlds like Golarion and those of the Longest-Running RPG, I can hold Good in the form of pure energy in one hand, and Chaos in the other, and my soul resonates harmoniously with them(and then I can hit you with it). That resonance means I am Chaotic Good. I can still think or even act Lawful(or Evil) from time to time, and still remain Chaotic Good. For a while, anyway.

I could elaborate, but this is not the place for it. My point is that this is not the real world, but one where Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are observable and quantifiable things.


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SAMAS wrote:
Kassil wrote:

I don't want to see alignment as a thing here. I'd rather have an expansion on things like the patriotic weapons and the Unchained bits about things like radiant damage.

Have allegiances and oppositions, not alignment.

In any universe where Good and Evil are actual (meta)physical forces, alignment makes sense.

In worlds like Golarion and those of the Longest-Running RPG, I can hold Good in the form of pure energy in one hand, and Chaos in the other, and my soul resonates harmoniously with them(and then I can hit you with it). That resonance means I am Chaotic Good. I can still think or even act Lawful(or Evil) from time to time, and still remain Chaotic Good. For a while, anyway.

I could elaborate, but this is not the place for it. My point is that this is not the real world, but one where Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are observable and quantifiable things.

Again, this is why I'm hoping they do a better job of advertising just what this game is supposed to be, a Golarion star system setting-specific game or a setting-neutral game meant for multiple settings, only one of which just so happens to be the Golarion star system.

Because you're correct. In a universe where alignment is a tangible thing, alignment serves a purpose. And if Starfinder is only meant for such a universe, then the game's inclusion of alignment isn't a problem.

But I always took Pathfinder to be setting-neutral. After all, isn't that one of the whole points behind it being backwards-compatible? As such, alignment in the core rules runs at cross-purposes with that goal. So I really hope they get it right and advertise what this game will actually be this time.


Muser wrote:

The gateway to Abyss keeps from brimming over by virtue of a magical "iron curtain" of dimension anchors and magical force fields and the internecine feuds between different warmonger demons. There's also a near-constant wave of crusaders bolstering the neighboring kingdom charged with maintaining the magical wards and engaging in smiting.

The warlord of Numeria, Kevoth-Kul, is uninterested in warfare and content to let a cabal of technomages rule in his stead. He's doped up on space drugs 24/7 and the cabal is mostly fine with just nerding over the massive space ship next to the capitol. Mages...

The southern kingdoms, namely Lastwall, Ustalav, Razmiran and the River Kingdoms all have their own troubles to sort out before any kind of concerted effort might be made upon Numeria. For instance, Lastwall is the lynchpin that keeps Azero...Belkzen in check. Ustalav and the River Kingdoms are both fractitious confederate realms that have little interest beyond their smaller neighbours, but I'd be surprised if some of their leaders had not adopted Numerian tech to some extent(this is actually featured in an AP volume, heh) Razmiran is a big bully, but doesn't share a border with Numeria. It's also engaged in several different conflicts with its neighbours by virtue of being an aggressive militant theocracy.

I get that the kitchen sink setting is patently ridiculous, but your post kinda reminds me of those times I'm listening to a radio show and some caller wonders why we don't just invade North Korea/Iran/Russia, etc! Checks and balances, wheels within wheels.

This.

Plus...

- they originator of the World Wound has different designs than mere fast conquest

- the tech begins to fail to some extent away from the mothership

- the technologically backwards people are bordered by: orcs, demons, a permanent unnatural winter, and the frozen top of the world: who're they going to trade with/advance by?

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