I want a strong spellcaster class. Yet I must choose. Which one the better?
Personally sorcerer, actual potential wise? Wizard. If you can perfectly predict what you'll need throughout the day, through divination or other such methods, then wizard will be better, otherwise I find sorcerer much better to play. If you still can't choose between the two then take Arcanist and choose the worst and best of both worlds.
You have nine levels of arcane spells to cast... No matter which one you pick, it's a strong class.
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If you know what you are going to fight, Wizard is better. You can tailor spells to meet challenges.
In real play, that seldom happens. In such event, a sorceror with a diverse spell selection that they can spam as appropriate for an encounter is often more suitable.
Magic items for sorcerers, such as Pages of Spell Knowledge, Mnemonic Vestments, Rings of Spell Knowledge, and the Feat Versatile Spontanaeity allow Sorcerors to expand, spontaneously access, and memorize extra spells to give them the versatility of Wizards. In addition, the human Favored Class bonus of an extra Spell Known starts rapidly expanding their spells on hand, reducing the need for customizing even further.
I think you will have more fun playing a sorcerer. The ARcane and Destined Bloodlines are both great for general play. You can BUY the versatility of a wizard.
The one difference you will find is in skill points. Because Wizards have Int as primary, they end up with lots of skill points and can play a brain character. Sorcs can't do that. But, since you have magic, that shouldn't be much of an issue.
==Aelryinth
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Wizards gaining higher-level spells one class level earlier than Sorcerers is not an insignificant difference.
Having played through 10 levels as a Sorcerer in a campaign with a Wizard also in the party, this difference came up much more frequently than I imagined it would. We worked together and were a powerful combo, but I was often envious of her new tricks.
Being able to spam spells is nice, but in my experience having access to higher level spells earlier is much more powerful.
From my point of view, it's apples to oranges. Sorcerers and Wizards may be similar, but they have a lot of important differences and fill different roles in a party.
If you like spamming certain spells and are interested in the powers that a particular bloodline grants, Sorcerer is for you.
I recommend against trying to "make a Wizard out of a Sorcerer." You're better off with the real thing.
I've played several Sorcerers in both home and PFS play. You have to be very careful when selecting your spells known, since you get so few.
Pages/Rings of Spell Knowledge are a good option, but they scale up in price rapidly. Count on not being able to afford very many. Sure, the 1st level versions are cheap, but how long are you going to rely on 1st level spells?
Having a scroll library of utility spells that don't necessarily benefit from having a high caster level or save DC will help mitigate the differences for either class. It doesn't "buy" a Sorcerer the versatility of being a Wizard though, just as it won't "buy" a Wizard the abilities of a Sorcerer. Having 10 scrolls of Fireball does not make a Wizard a Sorcerer. Having 1 scroll of every spell does not make a Sorcerer a Wizard.
There have been some good suggestions in this thread about how to make a Sorcerer more flexible.
Giving a Wizard more options and the ability to spam spells can be accomplished with things like Planned Spontaneity, Split Slot, Fast Study, a Bonded Object and Greater Spell Specialization, if that's what you're going for.
A wizard's spellbook can hold any and every spell he can scribe into it, including niche spells with limited, specific uses; like, say, Water-breathing, Fabricate, Guards and Wards, and so forth. Downtime spells, especially, are the Wizard's forte.
A Sorceror has his Spells Known, and that's it. SO he plans a lot of general use spells, but can't devote spells to niche events that may never or only rarely happen, and devoting slots for downtime use is difficult (like Fabricate).
Planned Spontaneity and Split Slot are there to give more options to the wizard. The first takes one slot, and lets you make a choice of two spells in that slot - so, Fireball OR Lightning bolt, but not both.
The second sacrifices a high level spell for two more lower level spells.
Fast Study lets you leave spell slots empty and fill them very quickly when needed. However, it is useless in combat, it just shortens the normal ten minutes required down to 1.
Bonded Object lets you pull any spell out of your spellbook once a day on demand. This is VERY useful...but basically the same as a Mnemonic Vestment.
Greater Spell Spec lets you take one spell and sacrifice other spells in memory to cast that one spell. So, you can spam one spell at the cost of your other spells.
So, it's not quite the same as a sorcerer being able to spam any and all of their spells known. The strength of a wizard is being able to book dive and pull a rabbit out of their hat, and the sorcerer CAN replicate that.
The getting early access thing is annoying. BUt I'm sure the wizard also envied your ability to keep casting a needed spell over and over without having to give up other options, so it's a balance thing.
==Aelryinth
For me, a strict power-gaming comparison comes down to the fact that the Wizard is one level faster than the Sorcerer in terms of his spellcasting progression. There are a whole ranged of nuanced points between spontaneous and prepared casting, but it's not enough to offset being a whole level behind. So, I say Wizard.
For me, a strict power-gaming comparison comes down to the fact that the Wizard is one level faster than the Sorcerer in terms of his spellcasting progression. There are a whole ranged of nuanced points between spontaneous and prepared casting, but it's not enough to offset being a whole level behind. So, I say Wizard.
Put against that the far more flexible casting style and use of metamagic, and greater number of slots, and the advantage is a bit questionable.
For me, a strict power-gaming comparison comes down to the fact that the Wizard is one level faster than the Sorcerer in terms of his spellcasting progression. There are a whole ranged of nuanced points between spontaneous and prepared casting, but it's not enough to offset being a whole level behind. So, I say Wizard.Put against that the far more flexible casting style and use of metamagic, and greater number of slots, and the advantage is a bit questionable.
In other words, both classes are well balanced (against each other at least.)
I want a strong spellcaster class. Yet I must choose. Which one the better?Does your GM plan things out and allow effective scrying?
Or do they make encounters and other challenges on the fly in the middle of the session?
If they lean towards the former go wizard, the latter go sorcerer. If you want to hedge your bets go with either a human sage bloodline sorcerer for the most spells known(and Int as a casting stat) or arcanist of your GM is allowing those classes into the game.
In addition, it depends upon whether you have a 15 minute adventuring day or a 15 hour adventuring day. For the 15 minute adventuring day, Wizard is fine, but for the 15 hour adventuring day, especially if you can't predict what you will be up against, Sorcerer's extra spells per day start looking pretty good.
Also, Sorcerer can make better use of spells that have a chance of not working even on a target that has no special resistance or immunity (often because a target saves against the spell or successfully uses spell resistance against it, or because of a missed attack roll). To use these, Wizard has to prepare them at least 2 times each, or invest in one of the methods described above for gaining ability to cast them spontaneously (or use the Echoing Spell Metamagic Feat, which isn't very good). A Sorcerer can just cast again, if warranted.
An Arcanist both prepares and spontaneously casts spells, and learns them as a Wizard, and so has both ability to make use of forewarning about what is coming (including preparing niche spells) and the ability to recast spells if warranted. Some Arcanist Exploits are nice, like Potent Magic to be able to increase the DC or caster level (not both at the same time) by 2 (instead of the normal 1) by spending an Arcane Reservoir point, to reduce the chance of needing to recast a spell. On the downside, the Arcanist gets the same spells per day as a Universalist Wizard (no extra specialty spell slot) except with spell levels 2 and beyond being delayed by a level like a Sorcerer, and can't prepare very many different spells at once (number of each level seems to be same as spells known for a Sorcerer, but not including a Sorcerer's Bloodline Spells). The Quick Study Exploit can help with the latter problem by allowing you to use an Arcane Reservoir point to change out a prepared spell, but still consumes a full round action, so it is better to avoid using this in combat, even though it is much faster than the Wizard's Fast Study Discovery. Note that some Arcane Exploits (including ones that have a saving throw DC) depend upon Charisma, as does the Consume Spells 1st level class feature (that allows you to burn spells to refuel your initially highly limited Arcane Reservoir that isn't even guaranteed to recharge all the way up each day). This means that an Arcanist tends to be more MAD than most Wizards or Sorcerers. Note that since an Arcanist's primary spellcasting stat is Intelligence, an Arcanist will have a lot of skill ranks per level like a Wizard (or Sage Sorcerer), despite having the same low base skill ranks per level as a Sorcerer.
A couple of Wizard archetypes deserve mention here. An Exploiter Wizard is basically a Universalist Wizard that trades out the mostly bad Universalist School abilities and Arcane Bond to get an Arcane Reservoir and the ability to take Arcane Exploits like an Arcanist, although in reduced number (and you don't get Consume Spells to recharge the Arcane Reservoir). Potent Magic and Quick Study could save your bacon here (although again try to avoid using the latter in combat), as well as potentially gain back some of what this archetype traded out, and your spellcasting progression of 2nd level and beyond isn't delayed like that of an Arcanist. This isn't necessarily better overall than an Arcanist, but if you need a backcross to the Wizard parent of the Sorcerer-Wizard hybrid that is the Arcanist, this is for you.
The other is the Thassilonian (Sin Magic) Specialist Wizard (not PFS legal). This is a Specialist Wizard archetype in all but name (having been published before archetypes became a codified thing) that predetermines your Opposition Schools based upon your Specialty School and converts them into Prohibited Schools, which means that all the spells in them are treated as being not on your spell list (you can't cast them or learn them at all, and have to use UMD to use them from a spell completion magic device such as a Scroll, Wand), and you can't choose a Arcane Subschool. In exchange, your Specialty Spell Slot is doubled, although you have to prepare the same Specialty School spell in both halves of it. Overall, this loses a significant part of a Wizard's versatility, but gets you up to a Sorcerer's spells per day (actually more once you hit 3rd level, because of the lack of delay in spellcasting progression). Overall this isn't a great trade, but if you want a Wizard but are worried about running out of gas and often need the same Specialty spell 2 times, this is for you.
If you need the versatility of a Wizard but are REALLY worried about running out of gas, and you are willing (or even want) to trade out some of the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list for some normally divine spells, consider the Witch. Even though you get the same limited spells per day as a Universalist Wizard and have to prepare them, many Witch Hexes are limited in uses per day per target (normally once per day, but the feat Accursed Hex and the spell Hex Vulnerability can increase this limit for offensive Hexes) instead of being limited in number of times you can use them per day. With the right choice of Patron and archetype you can even be a passable Cleric substitute, which is good if you are the only 9/9 spellcaster in the party, although then you REALLY have to ration spellcasting. Just be careful with your Familiar (Bonded Object for some archetypes), because this acts as your spellbook, and is hard to back up. Note: DON'T choose the Arcanist-Witch hybrid archetype Unlettered Arcanist -- this uses the Witch spell list and replaces your spellbook with a Familiar that acts as your spellbook, but doesn't give you Hexes (and VMC Witch is so bad that it might as well not exist); if this archetype had let you replace some Exploits with Hexes, it would have been not too shabby, and if it also let you get a Patron (for off-list spells), it would have been pretty good.
Of course, if you need to be both arcane and divine, some divine spellcasting archetypes and build choices also let you do this, but that's a subject for another thread (or at least another time).
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Wizard, by far.
It's not really about the magic, (where I think wizards may have a slight edge) it's about being Int based, and also getting bonus crafting feats. Wizards are the most powerful class because a good chunk of power in Pathfinder is magic items, and wizards blow every other class out of the water in terms of crafting. Also, knowledge is power, and wizards are one of the most skill flush classes, often beating rogues and sometimes even bards in the skill department. Sorcerers have that nice Cha, but they just don't have the skill points to really exploit it. They need spellcraft, knowledge arcana and other skills that wizards already have a huge boost in.
There are some limited ways a sorcerer is better (probably polymorph, some enchantment/binding stuff), but in general wizard is head and shoulders above every other class.
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What about Psychic.
Wizard, by far.
It's not really about the magic, (where I think wizards may have a slight edge) it's about being Int based, and also getting bonus crafting feats. Wizards are the most powerful class because a good chunk of power in Pathfinder is magic items, and wizards blow every other class out of the water in terms of crafting. Also, knowledge is power, and wizards are one of the most skill flush classes, often beating rogues and sometimes even bards in the skill department. Sorcerers have that nice Cha, but they just don't have the skill points to really exploit it. They need spellcraft, knowledge arcana and other skills that wizards already have a huge boost in.
There are some limited ways a sorcerer is better (probably polymorph, some enchantment/binding stuff), but in general wizard is head and shoulders above every other class.
This is highly campaign-dependent. If you get downtime (Kingmaker, parts of Council of Thieves), it's great; if not (any campaign where you are racing against the clock), it doesn't help much. Also, Sage Sorcerer, Arcanist, Witch, and Psychic get the same Intelligence advantage as the Wizard, and should do fine at crafting; some of the abilities that they get instead of bonus feats get them off the hook for some other feats that they would have to pay for otherwise, thus competing against Magic Item Creation Feats (the most obvvious example being Arcanist's Metamagic Knowledge and especially Greater Metamagic Knowledge), so depending upon build, they aren't necessarily hurting for Magic Item Creation feats.
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What about Psychic.
I knew I was forgetting something! For some reason I keep forgetting about Occult classes. Psychic is sort of an Intelligence-based Sorcerer, but your Discipline abilities depend upon Wisdom or Charisma (depending upon your choice of Discipline), making you more MAD, and the spell list is different, and seems overall not as versatile, although with some definite edges in certain specialties. You have limited Spells Known, but some of the spells can be Undercast, which means that if you know a high level version, you can cast any lower level version if you don't need the full power of the high level version. Note that some things specific to arcane or divine casting won't work with a Psychic (for instance, qualification for certain feats and prestige classes).
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Half-Elf Bonded Witch - no familiar, replaced with a modified version of the wizard's arcane bond. The witch gets one spell per spell level in the bonded object they can use in addition to their normal spells and hexes.
The way I read it, it looks to me like you get to use this once per day for any of the spells that you are high enough level to cast from your Bonded Object, not once per day for each of them (which would be more firepower although still less versatility than a Wizard gets from Bonded Object). And it's harder to back up than a normal Witch's Familiar. Now if you could maintain a set of potentially Bonded Objects and swap which one you use each time you prepare spells without having to pay for thte Bonded Object replacement ritual each time (just whenever you actually get a new one), I could like this.
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The getting early access thing is annoying. BUt I'm sure the wizard also envied your ability to keep casting a needed spell over and over without having to give up other options, so it's a balance thing.
==Aelryinth
Totally agree with your perspective, as usual.
I'd say that you're probably right; in some circumstances, spamming a spell until the bad guy failed their save was very useful. Sometimes a problem just can't be solved without someone being able to cast Blindness 4 times or throwing 6 Fireballs at it.I agree that the classes are well balanced against each other, but I think it comes down to more of a style thing for the player.
Veilgn, to decide between Wizard and Sorcerer, ask yourself if you want to have the power to cast the same few spells many times per day (Sorcerer), or if you want the flexibility to pick different spells each day (Wizard).
There are a lot of other ways that the classes are different, but that's the simplest way to describe those differences.
Just thought of another matter for comparison:
Wizard is harder to make sure you choose the right spells to prepare, but the consequences are less long-lasting if you mess up, assuming you survive the error and don't have a terrible selection of spells in your spellbook. If you do have a terrible selection of spells in your spellbook, then you might have problems for a longer time, but if you survive, unless you are in a dump of an environment where you can't get new spells from external sources, eventually you can fix this, and even if you are in a total dump, the 2 spells you get at each time you level up will partially remedy the problem (eventually completely, but it might take a long time).
Arcanist is similar, but if you get Quick Study, a large part of the above problem goes away (although not the part about being in a terrible environment where it's hard to fix a bad selection of spells in your spellbook).
Sorcerer and Psychic don't have the above issue, and aren't limited by environment with respect to which spells they can learn, but instead you have to worry about making the wrong choices in your build -- if you mess that up by more than 1 spell at each even level, the consequences last much longer (and you shouldn't count on the ability to swap spells known at even levels as an emergency error correction mechanism, because sometimes you need to use it on purpose to swap out spells that are good at low levels but no longer useful at high levels). This is especially true for Psychic, for which you will want to upgrade Undercastable spells to their higher versions. In addition, unless you get really lucky with your combination of needs and Bloodline Choice, you are likely to be unable to get much use of some of your Bloodline Spells (many Bloodlines have at least a few stinkers), and you can't swap these out.
Witch is like Wizard with respect to spell choice (except keep in mind it's harder to back up your Familiar or Bonded Object than to make a backup copy of a spellbook), but is like Sorcerer with respect to Hex choice, but with no class-based Hex swapout mechanism (a lot of Hexes get better with level, but if you make the wrong choice, you're stuck with it unless you can use the expensive general Retraining rules).
This is highly campaign-dependent. If you get downtime (Kingmaker, parts of Council of Thieves), it's great; if not (any campaign where you are racing against the clock), it doesn't help much.Wizard, by far.
It's not really about the magic, (where I think wizards may have a slight edge) it's about being Int based, and also getting bonus crafting feats. Wizards are the most powerful class because a good chunk of power in Pathfinder is magic items, and wizards blow every other class out of the water in terms of crafting.
Scribe Scroll is a bonus feat at 1st level for most wizards. And downtime is not a requirement to craft; it just makes it easier.
And if your GM makes it harder to craft than the Core Rulebook, they should make that clear before the campaign starts.
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
So, by adding +5 to the Spellcraft DC, the adventuring crafter can perform 4 hours worth of work creating a magic item per day in 4 hours of time. With a ring of sustenance* to reduce the required rest per day to 2 hours from 8, the crafter can spend another 4 hours of work (also accelerated with +5 to the DC because of the field conditions). Voila... 8 hours worth of crafting progress per day, without needing downtime.
A wizard will often have a large selection of scrolls of spells that are great in limited circumstances (such as water breathing) scribed "just in case," even before selecting the Fast Study arcane discovery (at 5th level) and leaving a few slots open to prepare spells on short notice.
TL;DR, the sorcerer likely has a lower floor (as long as you don't go overboard on specialization and mainly take the "benchmark" spells), but a properly prepared wizard has a higher ceiling. They're both generally considered in the top "tier" of classes (along with most other 9-level casters), so it's not a huge difference in most campaigns.
*- Cheap at 2,500 gp market price; note that a wizard that selected a ring as their bonded object can make it one on reaching 7th level in 5 days or less.
There are some limited ways a sorcerer is better (probably polymorph,
A ranger (wild hunter) 1/wizard (Transmutation/Shapechange school) 1/ranger +1 (Aspect of the Beast/Claws of the Beast, Combat Style/Rending Claws)/wizard +4/eldritch knight 10/wizard +3 with Magical Knack (Wizard), Fast Study, Multimorph, and every Polymorph subschool spell in their spellbook might beg to differ.
Tammy's compelling.
Sorcerer has lots of disadvantages.
{. . .} The alleged sorcerer metamagic flexibility advantage relies on not planning how you'll use your metamagic. If you don't know what you're going to do with your metamagic you shouldn't have ever taken the feat.
If you can't find out everything thats coming up, you can't even be sure of what spell you will need.
I forgot to mention above that the Arcanist has 2 choices of how to use Metamagic: Wizard-style, where you prepare the spell with the Metamagic Feat(s) (useful if you expect to use this combination frequently), or Sorcerer, where you didn't know you were going to need to do this but can use the Metamagic Feat(s) on the fly by accepting increased casting time. And with Fast Study you can even switch around your prepared Metamagic quickly, although again it's best to avoid having to do this in combat.
At the high end arcane schools are just better than bloodlines. Bloodlines have lots of abilities, but none of them offer anything like the admixture, teleportation, divination, or void schools.
Admittedly, the worst Sorcerer Bloodlines are probably worse than the worst Wizard Arcane Schools, but both have some standouts, and both have some real stinkers. The unnevenness of Sorcerer Bloodline quality is one thing I'd like to see addressed with a Sorcerer Unchained -- not to increase power overall, but to clean out the trap options and roll the Wildblooded Bloodlines into options you can take with the regular Bloodlines (the current organization as archetypes is just horrible --Bloodline organization as archetypes should be reserved for Sage, Empyreal, and Psychic). Also, some archetypes such as Eldritch Scrapper replace the Bloodline Powers that you would want in a build using that archetype; on the other hand, some of the older Wizard archetypes are pretty bad too.
There are better feats and items for allowing wizards to get the benefits of spontaneous casting than for sorcerers to get the benefits of prepared casting.
This is also something I'd like to see addressed with a Sorcerer Unchained.
If you are playing an elemental sorcerer you can effectively double the number of combat spells known. Since you can convert any spell into your element you never learn spells of your element. If you pick up elemental spell you can further increase your versatility and be able to target almost any element. Now instead of being able to spam just fireballs I can spam fireballs, lightningballs, and coldballs.
Sorcerers in my opinion make better combat mages, but wizards out do them in utility spells. Being able to memorize spells depending on the situation is not a sure thing. Unless the GM never has any surprises and the party always is able scout out the enemy you are not always going to be able to prepare suitable spells. Yes you can leave open a few slots and prepare as needed, but not during an ambush.