Now that the Armor Master handbook has been out for a bit what are your thoughts on the archetype? It definitely seems to fit the armored hatamoto feel of a dedicated bodyguard willing to do anything to protect their lord or in playing the rest of the group.
It's a Samurai Archetype that dispenses with the mounted nonsense. That automatically makes it worth a look. The armor training has a pretty flimsy "downside" (much harder to golfbag armor than weapons), and the abilities it trades out make it pretty dang awesome in my eyes. Especially for a Helpful Halfling.
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I love it. ^_^
It helps that it's thematically perfect for the nodachi/Shield Brace combo. Assuming full legalization, I'm probably going to build one for PFS - maybe using my vishkanya boon. I already have a halfling paladin with the oath of loyalty and a bunch of aid another stunts, so it wouldn't be my first such character. (I love support-type characters.)
I like it. I hope shielded brace won't be banned in PFS. If not I'll prolly try one out as my next character. I'd be going for a Dwarf for the FCB and added defenses. Order of the Dragon also feels like it should be a good fit.
I have a build outline stowed away somewhere. But with the few feats available to a Samurai it more or less builds itself. I think the major decision is whether you want to invest heavily in the Bodyguard route or whether you want to build a hard to hit damage dealer.
I'd be very interested in whether other orders offer strong synergies I overlooked.
I'm liking it so far. I've always wanted to do a fast moving samurai and armor training helps with that. It's sad that it loses weapon expertise for counting as fighter levels though, so as of now I don't think it qualifies for the Advanced Armor Training combat feat which is a shame.
I'm liking it so far. I've always wanted to do a fast moving samurai and armor training helps with that. It's sad that it loses weapon expertise for counting as fighter levels though, so as of now I don't think it qualifies for the Advanced Armor Training combat feat which is a shame.
Of course it does. The Armor training feature specifically calls out that your level counts as your fighter level.
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I said the combat feat "Advanced Armor Training":
Advanced Armor Training (Combat)
You are specially trained to use your armor proficiencies in new ways.
Prerequisites: Armor training class feature, fighter level 3rd.
Benefit: Select one advanced armor training option.
Special: This feat can be taken more than once, but at most once per 3 fighter levels.
The yojimbo's Armor Expertise just states: a yojimbo selects one type of armor, such as chain shirt or scale mail. The yojimbo gains armor training, treating his samurai level as his fighter level, when wearing the selected armor.
The way it's written, with the fighter levels text being in the same sentence as armor training, Armor Expertise just treat samurai levels as fighter levels to see the effectiveness of the yojimbo's version of armor training, but it's still a more restrictive ability compared to original flavour samurai's Weapon Expertise's "samurai levels count as fighter levels and stack with any fighter levels he possesses for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites for feats that specifically select his chosen weapon" text. While Armor Expertise is fine qualifying for advanced armor training normally at higher levels, Armor Expertise currently written doesn't allow the yojimbo to count as "fighter level 3rd" for the Advanced Armor Training feat prereq.
I do not think that is correct. The yojimbo gains armor training (one pre req for AAT) and treats his samurai level as his fighter level (meaning at 3rd level samurai you meet the other pre req for AAT) as long as you wear that kind of armor.
I see nothing that keeps a yojimbo from AAT in fact quite the opposite.
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The yojimbo treats his samurai levels as fighter levels when wearing that armor for armor training: to see what levels he gets the bonuses to max dexterity bonus, lessened armor check penalty, and removal of speed reduction from heavier armor.
It doesn't say the samurai levels counts as fighter levels when qualifying for feats that's armor related like Weapon Expertise does, nor does the Advanced Armor Training feat prereq says "armor training as a 3rd level fighter".
It doesn't have to say those things because the text stating samurai levels count as fighter levels while wearing that armor make such distinctions unnecessary.
I'm kinda amazed they actually remembered Samurai exist... When was the last time we saw anything for them?
Even Cavaliers are mostly forgotten...
It says it counts as fighter levels for that armor for armor training.
"The yojimbo gains armor training, treating his samurai level as his fighter level, when wearing the selected armor."
If the "samurai level as fighter level" was in a different sentence, it'll be a more generalized situation. But it's in the same sentence as armor training to explain how the yojimbo's armor training advances with that specific instance of samurai=fighter levels.
I don't want to devolve the thread further by this debate. Suffice it to say, I disagree with your interpretation of the wording. If a developer post or future errata agrees with how you are reading it then I will concede the argument.
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While I can't say anything with respect to the intent of any particular option from a Player Companion, Protoman is definitely correct that treat your X level as your Y level for purpose A does not give you a Y level for purposes other than A. Feat prerequisites are their own purpose (several classes do treat their levels as some function of fighter levels for that purpose, like magus and warpriest).
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Isn't that overcomplicating things? While I can understand the reasons for that, Abilities that "are like that thing with the same name for some things, but not for others", don't seem like a good idea.
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From a design standpoint what would be the logic to make a (long awaited) Archetype. Give it a class feature that gets massive support in the same book and then bar it from those options?
More substantially. If protoman's interpretation is correct then the archetype looses much of it's appeal...
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Isn't that overcomplicating things? While I can understand the reasons for that, Abilities that "are like that thing with the same name for some things, but not for others", don't seem like a good idea.
I think several people here might be mistaking what Protoman is talking about. Clearly it seems the yojimbo has armor training while wearing the selected armor. What it doesn't have is something like this warpriest ability "Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level." so it can't take feats like Weapon Specialization that require fighter level Xth.
EDIT: Ninjaed by Kalindlara!
The problem is that AAT lists two prerequisites that the wording of the archetype it qualifies for in having both armor training and samurai level counting as fighter level. As Alex Mack said above it seems incongruous to have AAT receive the support it has in the Armor Master's Handbook to go with a defensive archetype for a class that has been roundly ignored and yet not allow that archetype to actually qualify to use it.
The archetype can get advanced armor training normally (no increase to maximum Dexterity bonus and decreased armor check penalty) with no issues at levels 7, 11, and 15 like a fighter of equivalent level. However, it just doesn't qualify for the FEAT Advanced Armor Training to get extra advanced training. So the yojimbo can get AAT, just not the feat for extra AAT.
Currently, the archetype is no different than a class or archetype that grants fighter-equivalent levels to specific things:
Original flavour samurai Weapon Expertise counts samurai levels as fighter levels for weapon-specific fighter-only feats, but useless for non-weapon-specific feats like Disruptive or Spellbreaker.
Or warpriest counts as fighter levels for its bonus combat feats but not whenever else it gets a feat.
Not saying you're wrong, but if Protoman is correct about the fighter level equivalency then that piece of text does literally nothing.
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Not saying you're wrong, but if Protoman is correct about the fighter level equivalency then that piece of text does literally nothing.
Not precisely. It clarifies the rate at which the armor training class feature advances, and makes sure that it does. (Otherwise, some people would interpret it as only getting armor training 1 and no more.)
In addition, there's some awkwardly fighter-specific language at the start of the advanced armor training section - this neatly bypasses that debate as well. ^_^
Without that piece of text signifying that the armor training advances as a fighter as the yojimbo gains levels, then it could be argued that the armor training stays static and you only ever get the equivalent of Armor Training 1.
See the Myrmidarch magus archetype needing to advance to specific levels in order to get armor training 1 and 2; and how the Gun Tank and the Purifier archetypes need to specify a level progression (even comparing or stacking with fighter levels) in order to show how the armor training advances.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Kalindlara as I was posting links for examples.
Not precisely. It clarifies the rate at which the armor training class feature advances, and makes sure that it does. (Otherwise, some people would interpret it as only getting armor training 1 and no more.)
Not necessary. Armor Training describes it scaling in its class feature and never mentions fighter levels. None of the other archetypes that pick up Armor training (or weapon training) have fighter equivalency either, because advancement is spelled out in how the feature works.
In addition, there's some awkwardly fighter-specific language at the start of the advanced armor training section - this neatly bypasses that debate as well. ^_^
That doesn't work either. As we've just established upthread that the figher level equivalency doesn't qualify for anything. You don't get scaling AAT bonuses.
Without that piece of text signifying that the armor training advances as a fighter as the yojimbo gains levels, then it could be argued that the armor training stays static and you only ever get the equivalent of Armor Training 1.
But armor training has that language baked into its class feature
The yojimbo 'gains armor training' and armor training says:
Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
There's no 'fighter level' based anything there.
Besides, if you want to argue that people might say 'it doesn't mention armor training 2' you could still make that argument, because fighter level never had anything to do with it in the first place.
The myrmidarch here is just kind of badly written. The intent is clear, but as written you already gain armor training 2 (and 3 and 4) because armor training is just one class feature. It's messy.
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Typically when a class feature says "level" it means "class level", otherwise a level 3 fighter could multiclass into something else and armor training would still advance just relying on that wording. Whether you find the "treating his samurai level as his fighter level" text useful or not, I don't blame them for specifying the advancement clearly for those that would need it.
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Typically when a class feature says "level" it means "class level", otherwise a level 3 fighter could multiclass into something else and armor training would still advance just relying on that wording.
Well yes, that's already how the game works. But it doesn't specify 'fighter level', just level, so it doesn't need an equivalency.
I mean, are you suggesting that other archetypes that don't have an equivalency clause are broken? Does a myrmidarch's weapon training do nothing because 'a fighter can select one group of weapons' and they aren't fighters? That's just not how the feature works.
Point being I just don't see why they'd include that clause if it wasn't supposed to work with AAT, because that's the only thing that actually has anything to do with their effective fighter level.
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So anyone have nice ideas for builds? Here's what I came up with for a Dwarven tank assuming I can take the AAT feat:
STR 18 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 14 CHA 5
Traits: Glory of Old, Fast Drinker
1 Power Attack Challlenge, Resolve
2 Aid another
3 Shield Brace Armor Training: Full Plate
4 Challenge x2 Bodyguard
5 Combat Reflexes Banner
6 WF: No Dachi
7 Steel Soul Challenge x3
7 AAT: Steel Headbutt?
8 Strategist
9 Improved Critical, Greater Resolve
10
11 Open FEAT
11 AAT
Rather Vanilla but offense and defense are very solid at all levels. I'd likely max out Sense Motive and Perception and get a few ranks in Survival and a few points in physical skills and Diplomacy intimidate so that you can aid another. The build would work equally well with a reach weapon (then without fast drinker) but No-Dachi Damage output is just amazing due to the Crit modifier.
Key Stats at level 9
DPR: single attack 49/ full attack 85/ with haste 133 w. Haste
Wil: 3+3+2+5=13 (Resolve)
AC: 10+1+11+4+1+1+1=29
Typically when a class feature says "level" it means "class level", otherwise a level 3 fighter could multiclass into something else and armor training would still advance just relying on that wording.Well yes, that's already how the game works. But it doesn't specify 'fighter level', just level, so it doesn't need an equivalency.
I mean, are you suggesting that other archetypes that don't have an equivalency clause are broken? Does a myrmidarch's weapon training do nothing because 'a fighter can select one group of weapons' and they aren't fighters? That's just not how the feature works.
Point being I just don't see why they'd include that clause if it wasn't supposed to work with AAT, because that's the only thing that actually has anything to do with their effective fighter level.
The yojimbo can access AAT at the same levels as fighter. It just can't get the AAT feat which is merely used to get additional AAT.
So anyone have nice ideas for builds? Here's what I came up with for a Dwarven tank assuming I can take the AAT feat:
STR 18 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 14 CHA 5
Traits: Glory of Old, Fast Drinker1 Power Attack Challlenge, Resolve
2 Aid another
3 Shield Brace Armor Training: Full Plate
4 Challenge x2 Bodyguard
5 Combat Reflexes Banner
6 WF: No Dachi
7 Steel Soul Challenge x3
7 AAT: Steel Headbutt?
8 Strategist
9 Improved Critical, Greater Resolve
10
11 Open FEAT
11 AATRather Vanilla but offense and defense are very solid at all levels. I'd likely max out Sense Motive and Perception and get a few ranks in Survival and a few points in physical skills and Diplomacy intimidate so that you can aid another. The build would work equally well with a reach weapon (then without fast drinker) but No-Dachi Damage output is just amazing due to the Crit modifier.
Key Stats at level 9
DPR: single attack 49/ full attack 85/ with haste 133 w. Haste
Wil: 3+3+2+5=13 (Resolve)
AC: 10+1+11+4+1+1+1=29
That is not bad. I am wanting to do a nodachi/shield build as well that could possibly be a disarm specialist but not sure if I have enough feats to pull that off.
That is not bad. I am wanting to do a nodachi/shield build as well that could possibly be a disarm specialist but not sure if I have enough feats to pull that off.
You will be hard pressed for feats and INT as you need combat expertise for improved disarm.
That's what has me stumped. I know human would help slightly with the feat burden but meh. I think pure fighter might be the best for a disarm build.
What Order were you thinking about? Dragon?
Isn't that overcomplicating things? While I can understand the reasons for that, Abilities that "are like that thing with the same name for some things, but not for others", don't seem like a good idea.I think several people here might be mistaking what Protoman is talking about. Clearly it seems the yojimbo has armor training while wearing the selected armor. What it doesn't have is something like this warpriest ability "Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level." so it can't take feats like Weapon Specialization that require fighter level Xth.
EDIT: Ninjaed by Kalindlara!
No offense to anyone, but i´m seeing something different there.
Something more than enough players i know over here have some problems with too.Rules and wording intricacies which require not only a firm grasp of a language (being an english speaking native doesn´t help in that sense), but also a lot of experience with the rules and game as well as the ability to study and research the rules many don´t have for whatever reason (time and willingness mostly i guess).
Having played previous iterations of this game might or might not help there, i can´t always say.
In my eyes Pathfinder is tripping itself there slowly but surely, becoming overcomplex.
Please try to go back streamlining things^^
The feat probably should have been named "Extra Advanced Armor Training" so folks would stop being so confused.
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You will be hard pressed for feats and INT as you need combat expertise for improved disarm.
That is not bad. I am wanting to do a nodachi/shield build as well that could possibly be a disarm specialist but not sure if I have enough feats to pull that off.
There's always Dirty Fighting. ^_^
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I like it. I hope shielded brace won't be banned in PFS.I have to disagree. I hope that it is.
Either that or FAQ'd/errata'd so that it counts as being wielded one-handed like the phalanx fighter ability.
I really hope it's not banned. That said, I'd be perfectly happy with this compromise. (Hero Lab is already erroneously running it that way.)
That's what has me stumped. I know human would help slightly with the feat burden but meh. I think pure fighter might be the best for a disarm build.
What Order were you thinking about? Dragon?
Yeah Dragon cause it's all round awesome. Best challenge bonus. Good skills. The level 2 ability works well here. The level 8 ability admitedly is a bit lame but I might be underestimating it. An it actually becomes semi decent with Community minded.
But there might be other Orders that work well. I just find it really hard to pass up the to hit bonus on challenge.
I really hope it's not banned. That said, I'd be perfectly happy with this compromise. (Hero Lab is already erroneously running it that way.)I like it. I hope shielded brace won't be banned in PFS.I have to disagree. I hope that it is.
Either that or FAQ'd/errata'd so that it counts as being wielded one-handed like the phalanx fighter ability.
I would just suppose that it works like that. That´s true for lances too when my memory serves right.
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I would just suppose that it works like that. That´s true for lances too when my memory serves right.I really hope it's not banned. That said, I'd be perfectly happy with this compromise. (Hero Lab is already erroneously running it that way.)I like it. I hope shielded brace won't be banned in PFS.I have to disagree. I hope that it is.
Either that or FAQ'd/errata'd so that it counts as being wielded one-handed like the phalanx fighter ability.
Actually - lances on horseback have specifically been called out as still being two-handed despite being wielded with one hand.
Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.
Well, then not lances.
I remembered there was something, only in the other direction as i thought^^
People act like this is breaking the game, but actually you can get two handed damage with with a shield bonus since the begining of time...all you need is improved shield bash.
There's always Dirty Fighting. ^_^You will be hard pressed for feats and INT as you need combat expertise for improved disarm.
That is not bad. I am wanting to do a nodachi/shield build as well that could possibly be a disarm specialist but not sure if I have enough feats to pull that off.
Hmmm I need to try and throw a build together and see if it is possible to be a Yojimbo disarm specialist with a nodachi and shield. It feels like it should but I'm worried about the feats.
So anyone have nice ideas for builds? Here's what I came up with for a Dwarven tank assuming I can take the AAT feat:
STR 18 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 14 CHA 5
Traits: Glory of Old, Fast Drinker1 Power Attack Challlenge, Resolve
2 Aid another
3 Shield Brace Armor Training: Full Plate
4 Challenge x2 Bodyguard
5 Combat Reflexes Banner
6 WF: No Dachi
7 Steel Soul Challenge x3
7 AAT: Steel Headbutt?
8 Strategist
9 Improved Critical, Greater Resolve
10
11 Open FEAT
11 AATRather Vanilla but offense and defense are very solid at all levels. I'd likely max out Sense Motive and Perception and get a few ranks in Survival and a few points in physical skills and Diplomacy intimidate so that you can aid another. The build would work equally well with a reach weapon (then without fast drinker) but No-Dachi Damage output is just amazing due to the Crit modifier.
Key Stats at level 9
DPR: single attack 49/ full attack 85/ with haste 133 w. Haste
Wil: 3+3+2+5=13 (Resolve)
AC: 10+1+11+4+1+1+1=29
Shield Brace requires Shield Focus, which may alter your feat progression quite a bit.
I hope we get more archetypes for the samurai that swap out mount and mounted archer. Just as the yojimbo emphasizes the bodyguard role of the historic samurai I would like to see at least two more archetypes that emphasize the weapon master aspect and the banner/herald aspect.
Perhaps a bard's inspire courage to go with the normal banner effects for the banner herald archetype and some combats feats for the weapon master archetype?
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The abilities of the base samurai class, Weapon Expertise and Banner, provide enough to build your feat selection around for either of those aspects you're referencing.
If you're looking for more than that, the Sword Saint archetype out of he Dragon Empires player companion and the Battle Herald prestige class are both suitable.
The abilities of the base samurai class, Weapon Expertise and Banner, provide enough to build your feat selection around for either of those aspects you're referencing.
If you're looking for more than that, the Sword Saint archetype out of he Dragon Empires player companion and the Battle Herald prestige class are both suitable.
I cannot disagree enough with that first paragraph. The Banner ability is next to worthless on the base class and weapon expertise is already the bare minimum within the base class. Swapping out mount and mounted archer should specifically boost either weapon abilities and a better use of the banner. The banner functioning as a bard's inspire courage much like how the Evangelist cleric archetype gets it would be a good example.
I cannot disagree enough with that first paragraph. The Banner ability is next to worthless on the base class and weapon expertise is already the bare minimum within the base class. Swapping out mount and mounted archer should specifically boost either weapon abilities and a better use of the banner. The banner functioning as a bard's inspire courage much like how the Evangelist cleric archetype gets it would be a good example.The abilities of the base samurai class, Weapon Expertise and Banner, provide enough to build your feat selection around for either of those aspects you're referencing.
If you're looking for more than that, the Sword Saint archetype out of he Dragon Empires player companion and the Battle Herald prestige class are both suitable.
A full BAB class with Bardic PErformance would likely be too good. But there is order of the Draon which with it's challenge Bonus provides you with a considerable to hit bonus.