Civil War

[Ninja in the Rye]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Even more important, after the fighting is done...

** spoiler omitted **

Honestly, maybe it's just because it's late and I'm tired but I'm not really following what you're saying here.

Spoiler:

Black Panther offered to help Bucky? Okay?

Tony didn't have a drink on his desk at the end? Why is that significant? Drinking hasn't really ever been a major issue for Tony in the movies like it was in the comics?

Who did what they promised to do earlier in the movie? What did they promise to do?

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, I'm just having trouble following why these things are important or how they're connected, or even what the last one is trying to say.

Cole Deschain wrote:

Well, it wasn't Avengers 3 or Iron Man: Civil War. It was a Captain America movie by marketing. Which means Tony had to be the goat.

There didn't have to be a "goat" at all, regardless of whose name is on the movie.

[Cole Deschain]

Ninja in the Rye wrote:

There didn't have to be a "goat" at all, regardless of whose name is on the movie.

Sides are picked in any conflict.

The guy with the untreated PTSD did the shakier things near the end.

Still a better balance than I expected going in.

[Jaçinto]

I don't see how anyone could think Tony Stark was wrong in this. Heck, it is totally the stance Cap would take if he just thought about it for a moment. After all, wasn't he part of a larger organization with heavy government control that was trying to stop people with immense power that were just doing whatever they felt like regardless of the consequences? I think it was called the army.

This movie had a bunch of holes in the story, but not enough to ruin it. This movie was a lot of fun even though it was way different from that comic that was, honestly, kinda butt.

Well, as usual, this movie has to branch into more movies like the whole thor ragnarok thing and planet hulk. As well as giving a movie to spider man and black panther, oh and also Doctor Strange cause he has to be involved with planet hulk as well. And then will planet hulk actually involve world war hulk or will they mush it into a single movie?

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Spoiler:

Devil's advocate, but just because Bucky may be innocent, that doesn't make him any less dangerous. He's still all hopped up on that hydra mind control.
Hell, 24 hours previous, Bucky stuck a gun into Stark's face and pulled the trigger--no hesitation. He also almost choked Black Widow to death like it was no big deal.
That guy might be an innocent victim, but he's also a ticking time bomb, a rabid dog. You let him walk out of there, and he kills someone else's parents/children/sibling? That death is on you.

[Feral]

I thought both sides had major flaws but Cap's made more sense to me.

Ironman flips out and tries to murder someone that he acknowledges as not being in control of his actions. Earlier in that scene he calls Bucky 'Manchurian Candidate'. Backing the Accords makes sense to me. On a personal level I agree with them. Attempting to murder the tool that killed your parents seemed forced. Get over your dead parents Tony.

I think it's cool that Cap defends Bucky beyond all logic and reason but I think he's just as guilty for tearing the Avengers apart. He knows it's the right thing to do but he has to realize that splintering the Avengers is putting the Earth in a lot more danger. It just seems really selfish and short-sighted.

I don't understand why everyone thinks Black Panther is so wise and kingly in this movie. He's just as neurotic as everyone else. Sure, after the villain explains how he played everyone he realizes he was wrong and takes the high road but where was that wisdom when he boldly declared he was going to kill Bucky? As far as I'm concerned he's just as nuts as Tony. He just had the advantage of being there when Zeemo admitted that he set all of the events in the movie in motion.

[Cole Deschain]

Feral wrote:

I don't understand why everyone thinks Black Panther is so wise and kingly in this movie.

Because he learns and grows from the angry "I'll kill him myself" guy he is earlier in the movie into a more mature, thoughtful man by the end of it.

Quote:

He just had the advantage of being there when Zeemo admitted that he set all of the events in the movie in motion.

So did Cap and Tony- if they'd been paying attention.

[Rogar Valertis]

Feral wrote:

I thought both sides had major flaws but Cap's made more sense to me.

Ironman flips out and tries to murder someone that he acknowledges as not being in control of his actions. Earlier in that scene he calls Bucky 'Manchurian Candidate'. Backing the Accords makes sense to me. On a personal level I agree with them. Attempting to murder the tool that killed your parents seemed forced. Get over your dead parents Tony.

I think it's cool that Cap defends Bucky beyond all logic and reason but I think he's just as guilty for tearing the Avengers apart. He knows it's the right thing to do but he has to realize that splintering the Avengers is putting the Earth in a lot more danger. It just seems really selfish and short-sighted.

I don't understand why everyone thinks Black Panther is so wise and kingly in this movie. He's just as neurotic as everyone else. Sure, after the villain explains how he played everyone he realizes he was wrong and takes the high road but where was that wisdom when he boldly declared he was going to kill Bucky? As far as I'm concerned he's just as nuts as Tony. He just had the advantage of being there when Zeemo admitted that he set all of the events in the movie in motion.

[sarcasm] Yeah... if I just saw someone killing my parents in cold blood and I had them near me I'm sure I would be perfectly rational and forgiving with them. Sure thing.[/sarcasm]

Tony actions make perfect sense in the movie as long as you understand he's a flawed human being as much as most of the other characters and maybe more. And note Tony is at least as flawed in the comic books.
Also note he was kicking cap's ass and if not for Bucky gripping Tony's leg unexpectedly cap would have lost that battle which considering how Cap has been portrayed until now in the movieverse is pretty significant imo and in no way a bad showing.

As for the movie I found it very good, and I didn't find that many plot holes (Zemo having the resources to do what he did can be easily explained considering he was the leader of Sokovian black ops, the only thing making little sense his him being sure Iron Man would show up in Syberia after he revealed the dead psycologist's body). Best scene: Falcon and Bucky's expressions after Steve kisses Sharon Carter :P

[Jaçinto]

I have to wonder why Bucky is treated like a super soldier. He is just a brainwashed and trained assassin with a metal arm. Bullets flying and somehow every shot hit is metal arm even when they were clearly getting his legs and torso. The dude has literally zero enhancements to his nervous system or sensory input or anything. It is just a metal arm.

Again, I still really enjoyed this movie.

[Kevin Mack]

Jaçinto wrote:

I have to wonder why Bucky is treated like a super soldier. He is just a brainwashed and trained assassin with a metal arm. Bullets flying and somehow every shot hit is metal arm even when they were clearly getting his legs and torso. The dude has literally zero enhancements to his nervous system or sensory input or anything. It is just a metal arm.

Again, I still really enjoyed this movie.

If memory serves they mention something about him having been experimented on while a prisoenr in the first Captain America film.

[Mark Norfolk]

Yes. I'd thought he was part of some super-soldier program.

Cheers
Mark

[Wei Ji the Learner]

NitR:

Spoiler:

He told Ross he was going to put him on 'hold' and watch the light blink. Essentially telling him that there was a certain point where he'd be 'out' of the whole deal, or at least taking a huge back seat.

If he'd learned at least something from the fight with Bucky and Cap, it was that he might be... no... was wrong. But he didn't go back to *any* of the crutches that he's used in the past when he's had his errors thrown in his face, as far as was shown.

Not a drink, not something he's tinkering on at the desk, not seeking companionship with someone, not dropping millions of dollars on something in a misguided penance--no, he's sitting there, *thinking* about the letter.

Contrast with the end of some of the Iron Man Movies where he's sitting there designing something newer and bigger.

Jacinto: Pretty sure it was mentioned in Winter Soldier that Zola attempted to recreate the Super Soldier program with the left-over fragmented notes and research from Erskine's death.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Cole Deschain wrote:

At least he didn't ruthlessly clone one of his oldest and dearest friends into a mind-shorn murder zombie, give Norman Osborne, Venom, Crossbones, and so on a license to hunt down his former comrades in arms, or send a bunch of people he has nothing against into the Negative Zone.

*shrug*

And this is why I'm really worried about how they're going to f@+* up Captain Marvel's (Danvers) character and ethics to shoehorn her in as the antagonist in the upcoming Civil War II comic storyline.

[Sissyl]

Bucky is a good person. And despite knowing he did all those things, during mind control he couldn't break, he still had to doubt whether he had done everything he could so as to end the hold they had over him. All the time. He knows he did those things, and he assumes responsibility for them, despite not really being able to affect it. I found it impressive.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Sissyl wrote:

Bucky is a good person. And despite knowing he did all those things, during mind control he couldn't break, he still had to doubt whether he had done everything he could so as to end the hold they had over him. All the time. He knows he did those things, and he assumes responsibility for them, despite not really being able to affect it. I found it impressive.

Spoiler:

It also looked like his arm was moving to react to the command string, and he was fighting it -- perhaps part of the 'programming' tied into the arm, so with a new arm there might be less vulnerability, especially if they get away from whatever 'coding' that arm 'ran' on?

[CapeCodRPGer]

Saw it last weekend. Loved it. My girlfriend who goes to and works at MIT said that they filmed there. The auditorium was the same, as was the hallway where Tony talks to the lady that tells him about her son. She's been in there.

[magnuskn]

ShinHakkaider wrote:

Callous Jack wrote:

Ninja in the Rye wrote:

They ruined Iron Man even harder in the movie than they ever did the comics.

The Civil War comics ruined Stark for me too. It's been years since I read any of it, but his actions and dialogue were so off from what I loved as a kid that I've never picked up an IM comic since.

That's unfortunate because Matt Fraction and Salvador Larroca's run on Iron Man was one of the best in a very long time and it hasn't been as good since they left the title years ago.

I agree though, Millar's Iron Man in Civil War was NOT Tony Stark. He was a fascist dickbag in a Tony Stark suit.

Eeeh, I'd say that Bendis recent work on Iron Man is fantastic, but of course with Bendis it is the complete run which will have to be judged. He has a rather bad tendency of dropped plotlines and meandering.

[Set]

Cole Deschain wrote:

At least he didn't ruthlessly clone one of his oldest and dearest friends into a mind-shorn murder zombie, give Norman Osborne, Venom, Crossbones, and so on a license to hunt down his former comrades in arms, or send a bunch of people he has nothing against into the Negative Zone.

*shrug*

Comics Tony suffers from a lot of badly thought out decisions, such as the Armor Wars (in which he accidentally kills another super-hero, beats up another Avenger and destroys a bunch of armor suits he *sold to the US government* because he's paranoid that other people are using his tech), which had to be 'fixed' by him lying to everyone and saying that it wasn't him in the armor that week, then being killed off and replaced by a teenaged Tony, and finally mindwiping it from the memories of the entire world...

Civil War just took it to 11, with a dozen writers going a bit overboard in portraying the pro-Reg forces as nuts, such as a Runaways scene (scripted, IIRC, *before the Reg Act even became law!*) including a scene where a military force attempts to 'capture' the teenaged Runaways by firing heat-seeking high-explosive missiles at them *in the middle of New York City.* The missiles miss the teens, whose vehicle dodges them, and impact into a high-rise, quite possibly killing dozens, if not hundreds of faceless New Yorkers.

(And, honestly, I think Tony came out better in the comic-book Civil War story than Reed Richards, who got epically character-assassinated, and hasn't got Robert Downey, Jr. to reinvent him.)

MCU Tony is, by comparison, quite a bit more relatable, as there's less cooks in the kitchen, and not forty or fifty years worth of stories like 'Demon in a Bottle' about him falling down.

[Alex Martin]

Without sounding detractive, I guess if Tony as shown in the movie doesn't work for you so be it. I can understand that. I have been reading Iron Man for a long time and thought the Michelinie/Layton years were good for the character; as were O'Neil's and some of Busiek's. I can see that some that was brought into the movie character - the good and the bad - to explain him.

The problem is that Millar (and by some extension Bendis')work so turned him into caricature and some of those traits make it into the movie that I got worried about how it would turn out in Civil War. The fact that he turned out much more well-rounded in his actions - for better or worse - just made it much more of an enjoyable movie for me.

[Azih]

The thing about the conflict in Civil War that I really like is..

Civil War:

..that it wasn't just an ideological conflict. If it was just an ideological conflict then it would take two very stubborn a!*~~#&s to let it escalate to destructive fights involving all of their friends.

In the movie it starts with an ideological conflict but then it escalates as (Zemo manipulated) events overtake everybody in the movie.

They could have agreed to disagree and go their seperate ways and the movie would have been over in 30 minutes. The Avengers would have been disbanded but there would have been far fewer bad feelings. Cap and the people who agree with him would have either retired or gone on to become underground vigilantes.

EXCEPT

Zemo blows up the UN. Kills the King of Wakanda and successfully pegs the blame on Bucky. The UN gives the order to bring in the Winter Soldier by any means necessary. Tony sides with the UN and Cap goes rogue to get to Bucky first, while T'challa goes rogue to murder Bucky.

Ok so they all get captured. Now that things are settled Rogers and Stark have a grown up conversation and *almost* come to an understanding until Rogers learns that Stark has had Wanda put under unwilling house arrest, the ideological conflict flares up again but they're not coming to blows at all.

EXCEPT

Zemo manages to pull off an absolutely crazy plan (weakest part of the movie for me) to infiltrate the holding cell where Bucky is contained, activates the Winter Solider to find out the information he is after and sends WS into a rampage to cover his escape. Just like the first time everybody splits up into factions and Cap manages to get to Bucky and capture him and hide him.

There the red herring of the other Winter Soldiers is planted and Cap and friends decide to keep going rogue and stop Zemo from activating them. This is justifiable

Meanwhile Tony buys himself 36 hours to bring the rogue heroes into custody without getting other more hostile forces invovled. This is justifiable too.

It leads to the awesome airport fight where everybody is pulling punches with Cap's team trying to get away to Sibera to stop Zemo while Iron Man's team is trying to capture them to hold on to the accords.

Cap and Bucky manage to get away, which would be great, except as a part of it Rhodey gets severely hurt and paralyzed.

Even with this escalation Stark goes into the prison where the other rogues are being held and manages to get Falcon to tell him what Rogers is really up to. He does his own investigation and realizes that Cap is right (about Bucky not being responsible for the UN attack NOT about breaking the accords and going rogue) but decides to go rogue as well to help Cap.

They meet at Siberia and make peace and go after the other Winter Soldiers.

EXCEPT

Zemo plays the tape that shows Bucky smashing Tony's father's face into pulp and then slowly choking Tony's mother to death.

And.

Tony goes into a frenzy and attempts to kill Bucky and barely gets stopped by the combined forces of WS and CA.

Both Rogers AND Stark in this movie could have come to a reasonable ideological accommodation of some sort. I loved that about the movie. All that stopped them was that Zemo managed to knock things off course multiple times.

Ninja in the Rye. All I can say is that

Tony Stark in the end:

It's not murder that Iron Man was attempting to commit. It's called voluntary manslaughter and it's a much less harsh crime. Yes the movie made him attempt a terrible thing but it was far less than murder.

[Lord Fyre]

Ninja in the Rye wrote:

As to Tony, here's the thing, I just don't care if people think that it's understandable that a person who saw what he saw would "snap" and do what he did in that moment. It still ruined the movie and the character for me regardless.

First, from a meta perspective, it felt like cheap manipulation on the part of the film makers in order to throw the whole ideological difference the movie was built around out of the window and force a big final fight between the characters. (The villain's entire plan to get them all there to that point is also ridiculously convoluted and could and probably should have fallen apart multiple times along the way).

Actually, It think it would have been hilarious (as a subversion of expectations) for Tony to have turned to Bucky and demanded his help to find the surviving people actually responsible.

Of course, the climactic battle would have been between our heroes and the five other Winter Soldiers. Panther, of course, would need to actually track down Zemo.

[JoelF847]

Also, last night's episode of Agent's of SHIELD clarified that we haven't seen the last of the Sokovia Accords. They were already looking to get any friendly inhumans to register. I would expect that it might be referenced in the upcoming Luke Cage series as well. It is likely going to be something that's a plot point throughout the MCU until Avengers: Infinity War.

[Kevin Mack]

Spoiler:

To me it seems that the Iron man fight at the end was more flash of emotion rather than permanent intent to kill Bucky (after all if that was the case when the call for the raft breakout came in he would probably have been suited up and halfway there before Ross could finish the call).

[Cole Deschain]

Sissyl wrote:

Bucky is a good person. And despite knowing he did all those things, during mind control he couldn't break, he still had to doubt whether he had done everything he could so as to end the hold they had over him. All the time. He knows he did those things, and he assumes responsibility for them, despite not really being able to affect it. I found it impressive.

My hands-down favorite line of the entire film was Sebastian Stan saying "I remember all of them." Gets you right in the gut.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Cole Deschain wrote:

At least he didn't ruthlessly clone one of his oldest and dearest friends into a mind-shorn murder zombie, give Norman Osborne, Venom, Crossbones, and so on a license to hunt down his former comrades in arms, or send a bunch of people he has nothing against into the Negative Zone.

*shrug*

And this is why I'm really worried about how they're going to f%&@ up Captain Marvel's (Danvers) character and ethics to shoehorn her in as the antagonist in the upcoming Civil War II comic storyline.

Wait, wait, WAIT!!!

Marvel is going to do a Civil War II?! Did they learn absolutely NOTHING?! Please tell me at least that Millar is going to have nothing to do with it?

[TriOmegaZero]

Cole Deschain wrote:

My hands-down favorite line of the entire film was Sebastian Stan saying "I remember all of them." Gets you right in the gut.

Oh. I heard 'all of it' in the theater and thought he was talking about that single event. That's even worse.

[Sissyl]

Decision not to read more Marvel comics is paying off every day, it seems...

[ShinHakkaider]

Cole Deschain wrote:

Sissyl wrote:

Bucky is a good person. And despite knowing he did all those things, during mind control he couldn't break, he still had to doubt whether he had done everything he could so as to end the hold they had over him. All the time. He knows he did those things, and he assumes responsibility for them, despite not really being able to affect it. I found it impressive.

My hands-down favorite line of the entire film was Sebastian Stan saying "I remember all of them." Gets you right in the gut.

Yup. That and the exchange between Bucky and Steve in the Quinjet just before the get to the Siberia base.

Bucky: I don't know if I'm worth all this Steve.

Steve: What you did all those years...It wasn't you. You didn't have a choice.

Bucky: I know. But I DID It.

I was like, wow. He's really kinda living with the guilt isnt he?

[MMCJawa]

I saw this Sunday, and my opinion of the movie has actually improved since then, as 3 days later I am still thinking about it.

spoiler:

While I know a lot of the discussion here has focused on Stark's actions, I can't help but feel a large dollop of blame lies in Cap's court. Bucky is Cap's weakpoint, a person that he can not even remotely be rational about. A person who, at best, is a loaded gun that at any moment could be turned against anyone else. There really was no need...at all, for Cap not to turn him over after the Zemo facilitated escape. They still could have gotten the info on the assassins and intervened as needed, with Bucky still in prison. Going rogue forced a conflict which resulted in one avenger paralyzed, another possibly traumatized, and the other half wanted fugitives.

And while I think Cap genuinely didn't know that Bucky killed Stark's parents, I also tend to think he probably didn't really want to know, and I suspect subconsciously that is why he probably never mentioned it to Stark.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Cole Deschain wrote:

At least he didn't ruthlessly clone one of his oldest and dearest friends into a mind-shorn murder zombie, give Norman Osborne, Venom, Crossbones, and so on a license to hunt down his former comrades in arms, or send a bunch of people he has nothing against into the Negative Zone.

*shrug*

And this is why I'm really worried about how they're going to f%&@ up Captain Marvel's (Danvers) character and ethics to shoehorn her in as the antagonist in the upcoming Civil War II comic storyline.

Wait, wait, WAIT!!!

Marvel is going to do a Civil War II?! Did they learn absolutely NOTHING?! Please tell me at least that Millar is going to have nothing to do with it?

Yep, although at least Millar won't be involved. Bendis will be in charge it seems:

Spoiler:

Marvel press release wrote:

A strange new Inhuman character with the power to accurately predict the outcome of future events comes to the attention of the world. This power divides the heroes on how best to utilize the information, with Captain Marvel's side wanting to prevent future crimes by arresting/"stopping" the perpetrators before they commit the crimes, and Iron Man's side believing that "the punishment cannot come before the crime."

After all the work they put into rehabilitating Marvel/Danvers in the last few years, I'm worried this'll completely turn her character into an extremist a$@!$!+ like the first CW did to Tony. I'm also worried the leaks/rumors are true and a couple heroes I really like are getting permanently ganked:

Spoiler:

Jenn Walters/Shulkie and Rhodey/War Machine

[Wei Ji the Learner]

*rants*

Spoiler:

"LEAVE RHODEY ALONE, FFS! JFC!" Can't a brother catch a freakin' break, for cryin' out loud? Wait, Jen, too? I guess it pays to have stopped reading back during unCivil Whore...

[Ninja in the Rye]

JoelF847 wrote:

Also, last night's episode of Agent's of SHIELD clarified that we haven't seen the last of the Sokovia Accords. They were already looking to get any friendly inhumans to register. I would expect that it might be referenced in the upcoming Luke Cage series as well. It is likely going to be something that's a plot point throughout the MCU until Avengers: Infinity War.

LOL

So Agents of SHIELD is ignoring the way the movie set things up as a way specifically regulate the Avengers team and authorize their operating across international boarders and is instead just treating the Accords like the SHRA from the comics? What a joke.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Ninja in the Rye wrote:

LOL

So Agents of SHIELD is ignoring the way the movie set things up as a way specifically regulate the Avengers team and authorize their operating across international boarders and is instead just treating the Accords like the SHRA from the comics? What a joke.

Well, you never know if one of those mutants 'enhanced' humans is going to turn around and have an international incident on you.

Though, it did get me wondering about another thing...

Spoiler:

The UN was meeting in Geneva. Did that become the new HQ of the UN when I wasn't looking IRL, or was there some story that caused it to move from *New York* after the Chitauri Invasion in-canon? THAT was driving me buggy.

[Bill Dunn]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Though, it did get me wondering about another thing...

Spoiler:

The UN was meeting in Geneva. Did that become the new HQ of the UN when I wasn't looking IRL, or was there some story that caused it to move from *New York* after the Chitauri Invasion in-canon? THAT was driving me buggy.

In answer:

Spoiler:

The UN meeting was in Vienna, wasn't it? And Vienna is one of the headquarters of the UN. There are 4, including Geneva and Nairobi.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

MMCJawa wrote:

I saw this Sunday, and my opinion of the movie has actually improved since then, as 3 days later I am still thinking about it.

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

They cover that in the scene that ended up the stinger for Ant Man.

Both Cap and Sam think that Tony will not believe them when they tell him about the assassins, and even if he does, it's not up to him whether they intervene in Siberia. They'd need to get the OK of the UN panel and/or General Ross.

And we see, essentially, that Cap and Sam are right. When Stark realizes what happened and brings hard evidence about Zemo to Ross, Ross blows him off.

[Lord Fyre]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

I saw this Sunday, and my opinion of the movie has actually improved since then, as 3 days later I am still thinking about it.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Which is why, at the end, Tony blows off General Ross's call for help.

[Skeld]

Took off some time from work yesterday to,watch it; loved it.

Of all the Marvel movies the Cap movies have been my favorites. Civil War is my new fav Marvel movie.

Without going into too much detail, I really liked all the characters. And I have renewed hope for a proper Spiderman movie.

As to the debate over Tony Stark and his decision making process, remember that he was not recommended for the Avenger Initiative: SHIELD liked the armor tech, but thought Tony was too emotionally damaged to participate as anything more than a consultant. Over the course of all his appearances, he's gotten demonstrably worse at making reasonable decisions.

Also,

Spoiler:

I thought for a second there at the end, they were going to reintroduce Cap as Nomad.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Skeld wrote:

As to the debate over Tony Stark and his decision making process, remember that he was not recommended for the Avenger Initiative: SHIELD liked the armor tech, but thought Tony was too emotionally damaged to participate as anything more than a consultant. Over the course of all his appearances, he's gotten demonstrably worse at making reasonable decisions.

Spoiler:

Okay, so I was *not* the only one that thought that, Skeld. The other connection - direction would be if Bucky became Nomad, because of the whole 'frozen then revived' thing that Jack Monroe had in the comics. Makes for a certain sort of cleaner synergy, even.

[Alex Martin]

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Wait, wait, WAIT!!!

Marvel is going to do a Civil War II?! Did they learn absolutely NOTHING?!

Yep, although at least Millar won't be involved. Bendis will be in charge it seems

Spoiler:

After all the work they put into rehabilitating Marvel/Danvers in the last few years, I'm worried this'll completely turn her character into an extremist a$&$~#$ like the first CW did to Tony.

Meh...Bendis doesn't rank much better in the long run. Is every hero going to be a snarky a-hole instead of being close to character?
I worry about the Marvel/Danvers thing too; if only because she'll be shown as a terrible contrast to whatever Mary Sue heroine he picks to always be right.

[Set]

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

After all the work they put into rehabilitating Marvel/Danvers in the last few years, I'm worried this'll completely turn her character into an extremist a~%$%%~ like the first CW did to Tony.

I was never the biggest Iron Man fan, and I actively disliked Reed Richards, so their tarring and character assassination in the Civil War comic storyline didn't bug me nearly as much as Carol Danvers, She-Hulk and Tigra also being dragged in on the 'yay fascism!' side of things.

Carol's epic moral smackdown *from Emma Frost, of all people* about how the people behind the Registration Act sat around and watched dozens of mutant kids get crucified, set on fire and / or blown up without doing bupkiss about it, and then had the gall to come tell the mutants to register 'or else' was bitter, for a long-term fan who remembers when Carol was a friend of the X-folk and Emma was a foe. (And I like Emma, and her arc, but it just rubbed me the wrong way that Carol, and Jen, and Greer, had to play the bad-guy in this story, along with Tony and Reed and SkrullPym).

I'm getting the feeling that this Carol-as-Marvels-answer-to-Wonder-Woman push is going the route that Storm-as-leader or Heather Hudson-as-leader went in the X-books and Alpha Flight books, where a formerly excellent and nuanced female character is written as some sort of one-note tin-plated 'I'm always right!' megalomaniac the second she's put in charge (by male writers who seem much more capable of writing nuanced and different *male* leaders, like Cyclops and Captain America).

[Azih]

It's really early to think that though isn't it Set? I personally have more faith in a movie series that has done right by Scarlet Witch and Black Widow at least so far.

[Lemmy]

Finally saw the movie this Monday! And managed to do it without hearing any spoilers beforehand!

I can now participate here! Yaaaaaaaaaay!!!

[Tinkergoth]

Azih wrote:

It's really early to think that though isn't it Set? I personally have more faith in a movie series that has done right by Scarlet Witch and Black Widow at least so far.

I'm pretty sure Set is talking about the comics Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel, not the upcoming MCU version.

[Lemmy]

I really liked that there were no one-sided fights... Everyone gives as much as they take, except in the few instances where someone much more powerful is fighting someone reasonably normal (Vision vs Hawkeye).

I was afraid they would try to make Panther look badass at the expense of Cap and/or Bucky... But they managed to make everyone look awesome without making anyone look bad. :)

Admittedly, they had to "nerf" Iron Man for his armor to not be completely overpowered... But defeating him did take two veteran super-soldiers and Stark being wounded and physically, emotionally and mentally fatigued... So it didn't feel like the writers were cheating when Cap & Bucky manage to (barely) defeat a guy who basically becomes Superman while in armor.

[Set]

Lemmy wrote:

Admittedly, they had to "nerf" Iron Man for his armor to not be completely overpowered... But defeating him did take two veteran super-soldiers and Stark being wounded and physically, emotionally and mentally fatigued... So it didn't feel like the writers were cheating when Cap & Bucky manage to (barely) defeat a guy who basically becomes Superman while in armor.

I was thinking the same thing, in the comics, but the MCU Steve is quite a bit stronger than 'peak human,' and the MCU Tony doesn't seem to have 100 tons worth of super-strength as a side-effect of his armor, being more a flying armored repulsor-platform.

In the comics, a fight between the two of them seems kind of absurd (much like a fight between a certain Man of Steel and a certain Darknight Detective, actually), but the MCU version of Tony seems a lot less powerful. (While I have no doubt he has *some* degree of enhanced strength in the armor, he's not been showing throwing cars all that much, and certainly not been showing off Thor- or Hulk-class strength, like comic-book Tony.)

[Lemmy]

Set wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

Admittedly, they had to "nerf" Iron Man for his armor to not be completely overpowered... But defeating him did take two veteran super-soldiers and Stark being wounded and physically, emotionally and mentally fatigued... So it didn't feel like the writers were cheating when Cap & Bucky manage to (barely) defeat a guy who basically becomes Superman while in armor.

I was thinking the same thing, in the comics, but the MCU Steve is quite a bit stronger than 'peak human,' and the MCU Tony doesn't seem to have 100 tons worth of super-strength as a side-effect of his armor, being more a flying armored repulsor-platform.

In the comics, a fight between the two of them seems kind of absurd (much like a fight between a certain Man of Steel and a certain Darknight Detective, actually), but the MCU version of Tony seems a lot less powerful. (While I have no doubt he has *some* degree of enhanced strength in the armor, he's not been showing throwing cars all that much, and certainly not been showing off Thor- or Hulk-class strength, like comic-book Tony.)

Well... He did resist having Mjolnir thrown at directly at his chest without any significant wound (other than being thrown through a tree). And did go a few rounds with Thor... His armor is a bit damaged at the end of that fight, but Tony himself is completely fine, although tired.

[Marc Radle]

Tinkergoth wrote:

Azih wrote:

It's really early to think that though isn't it Set? I personally have more faith in a movie series that has done right by Scarlet Witch and Black Widow at least so far.

I'm pretty sure Set is talking about the comics Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel, not the upcoming MCU version.

Yeah, although I absolutely understand why some folks want to bring up the comic, it is getting pretty confusing when posts bounce around between Civil War the movie and Civil War the comic. It'll never happen, I know, but I kind of wish discussion about plots in the Civil War comic moved elsewhere and this thread just stuck with discussing the movie as much as realistically possible ...

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Lemmy wrote:

Well... He did resist having Mjolnir thrown at directly at his chest without any significant wound (other than being thrown through a tree). And did go a few rounds with Thor... His armor is a bit damaged at the end of that fight, but Tony himself is completely fine, although tired.

Spoiler:

It's also important to note that Ant-Man was playing holy havoc with all the systems in the armor, so there may have been issues there as well. Tony tends to stick with an armor until it's practically disintegrating before 'swapping out', after all...

[Skeld]

I thought he swapped armor after the airport fight. At least he put on a suit of armor in the helicopter and I assumed it was fresh, but it may have been the same one. He certainly had time to switch to a new suit if one was available.

Cap is supposed to be a battlefield-level tactical genius and he's been very good about increasing his fighting ability from each movie to the next. I'm not surprised he'd do ok in a fight versus MCU Ironman. Cap has a working knowledge of Ironman's capabilities and tactics, so he knows where to damage the suit for the most effectiveness (like damaging one of the repulsors in the feet so Ironman loses some mobility).

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Skeld wrote:

I thought he swapped armor after the airport fight. At least he put on a suit of armor in the helicopter and I assumed it was fresh, but it may have been the same one. He certainly had time to switch to a new suit if one was available.

Cap is supposed to be a battlefield-level tactical genius and he's been very good about increasing his fighting ability from each movie to the next. I'm not surprised he'd do ok in a fight versus MCU Ironman. Cap has a working knowledge of Ironman's capabilities and tactics, so he knows where to damage the suit for the most effectiveness (like damaging one of the repulsors in the feet so Ironman loses some mobility).

In addition to that last part, it also merits noting that there had been a loss of control of at least one of the suits (admittedly, it was the *cough* 'Iron Patriot') so there was probably an intelligence briefing on how to handle them in the event something like that happened again?