Does removing a belt remove the bonus after 24 hours?

[Ten'shun the Tengu]

I have a player who swears that after 24 hours of wearing a belt of giants strength (and/or any similar ability score boosting item) the bonus becomes permanent, and he can safely take off the item without losing the bonus.

He also swears that the rule books don't deny this, and if I don't hold up errata stating otherwise, he will simply go with his ruling. (he did later state that I can DM fiat him, but I know he still holds this belief.)

I've been looking through all my books, and have come to the conclusion that I need some help to find the truth. Does anyone have an answer which I can give my friend? One that will be unquestionable in it's wording?

Otherwise I can only ask that this question and it's true answer be added to the FAQ, so that I can show it to my friend.

[DonDuckie]

UE says "treat as temporary bonus for the first 24 hours". Some effects work differently with temporary and permanent ability score increases, off the top of my head I can only think of bonus spell slots.

It is 'treated' as a permanent increase, if it actually was a permanent increase that sentence wouldn't make any sense.

Do you have a source for the "becomes permanent after 24 hours"?

[Ten'shun the Tengu]

DonDuckie wrote:

UE says "treat as temporary bonus for the first 24 hours". Some effects work differently with temporary and permanent ability score increases, off the top of my head I can only think of bonus spell slots.

It is 'treated' as a permanent increase, if it actually was a permanent increase that sentence wouldn't make any sense.

Do you have a source for the "becomes permanent after 24 hours"?

I do not. I don't think there is a source stating that, but I can't prove a negative.

[Franz Lunzer]

Belt of giant strength wrote:

The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.

Nothing in the item's description says it's a permanent bonus after the initial 24h, it's just an enhancement bonus.

Removing the belt removes the bonus (be it temporary or not).

[Ten'shun the Tengu]

DonDuckie wrote:

UE says "treat as temporary bonus for the first 24 hours". Some effects work differently with temporary and permanent ability score increases, off the top of my head I can only think of bonus spell slots.

It is 'treated' as a permanent increase, if it actually was a permanent increase that sentence wouldn't make any sense.

Do you have a source for the "becomes permanent after 24 hours"?

I did just have a thought though... In the item description I'm looking at (Core pg.502 Belt of Giant Strength) it says it's an 'enhancement' bonus. does that still separate it from being a fully permanent bonus after 24 hours?

[Callum]

SRD wrote:

The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.

So the wearer gets an enhancement bonus to Strength. The wearer. Not someone who wore it for a day once, ages ago.

I suspect your player is getting confused by the second sentence. However, that's just referring to the standard method of operation for ability score bonuses. Ability score bonuses with a duration of a day or less don't increase the ability score - instead, the PC gets bonuses on the checks listed under the ability in question. For belts, etc, the PC gets these bonuses for the first day of wearing; if they continue to wear it after a day, they can then note their ability score as being increased. Nothing in this removes the necessity to wear the belt to get the ability score bonus. Note that, under "Permanent Bonuses", it explicitly states "These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."

[Ten'shun the Tengu]

Franz Lunzer wrote:

Belt of giant strength wrote:

The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.

Nothing in the item's description says it's a permanent bonus after the initial 24h, it's just an enhancement bonus.

Removing the belt removes the bonus (be it temporary or not).

This is exactly my contention with my friend I guess, but to help solidify my position, I should probably search up stuff regarding 'Enhancement Bonuses' itself.

Any recommendations? (meanwhile I am looking myself)

[Anonymous Warrior]

Ok, my understanding is that the reason for listing the "Belts" and "Headbands" of enhancements as 'no longer temporary after 24 hours' was in order to grant certain benefits that couldn't be accrued while they were 'temporary.'

For example, just because your wizard spams your Wisdom 16 cleric's face full of Owl's Wisdom doesn't mean that said cleric, being a 20th lvl. caster, can prepare 9th level spells (even if the wizard continues to spam through the cleric's hour of meditation.)

The same is true of the cleric that dons the Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4 just before preparing his spells. But if that cleric dons the headband the day before, he can attune it to himself, and thus has a Wisdom of 20 for the purpose of prepping his spells.

Now, if he then removes the headband, he loses the bonus to Wisdom. My understanding, further, is that:
1. He retains, but cannot cast, his spells from level 7th through 9th.
2. His DCs for his spells drop down to what they were before, etc.
3. If he re-dons the headband, he can now cast his spells again.

What I don't know is:
1. Is the headband reset to a 'temporary' bonus for 24?
2. If it is now temporary, is that literally 24 hours, or just until the next day?

[Cavall]

Anonymous Warrior wrote:

Ok, my understanding is that the reason for listing the "Belts" and "Headbands" of enhancements as 'no longer temporary after 24 hours' was in order to grant certain benefits that couldn't be accrued while they were 'temporary.'

For example, just because your wizard spams your Wisdom 16 cleric's face full of Owl's Wisdom doesn't mean that said cleric, being a 20th lvl. caster, can prepare 9th level spells (even if the wizard continues to spam through the cleric's hour of meditation.)

The same is true of the cleric that dons the Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4 just before preparing his spells. But if that cleric dons the headband the day before, he can attune it to himself, and thus has a Wisdom of 20 for the purpose of prepping his spells.

Now, if he then removes the headband, he loses the bonus to Wisdom. My understanding, further, is that:
1. He retains, but cannot cast, his spells from level 7th through 9th.
2. His DCs for his spells drop down to what they were before, etc.
3. If he re-dons the headband, he can now cast his spells again.

What I don't know is:
1. Is the headband reset to a 'temporary' bonus for 24?
2. If it is now temporary, is that literally 24 hours, or just until the next day?

Basically this. It was a way to stop players from say, getting free channeled heals and just passing it around in a circle. Because the bonus is temporary, you can't just wear it, gain 2 more channels (for a plus 4 belt as an example) and then take it off and pass it around to the next channeler.

In answer to your question, yes if you remove it and place it back on it starts all over again. However, because you logically have to get naked once in a while it's safe to assume that 24 hours should pass before it's temporary again. Basically once it's "attuned" you're ok but if someone else wears it then start over again. Not that it. Atters to the OP because the language is clear. Wear it to gain a benefit. So put it on.

[Ten'shun the Tengu]

Callum wrote:

SRD wrote:

The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.

So the wearer gets an enhancement bonus to Strength. The wearer. Not someone who wore it for a day once, ages ago.

I suspect your player is getting confused by the second sentence. However, that's just referring to the standard method of operation for ability score bonuses. Ability score bonuses with a duration of a day or less don't increase the ability score - instead, the PC gets bonuses on the checks listed under the ability in question. For belts, etc, the PC gets these bonuses for the first day of wearing; if they continue to wear it after a day, they can then note their ability score as being increased. Nothing in this removes the necessity to wear the belt to get the ability score bonus. Note that, under "Permanent Bonuses", it explicitly states "These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."

Wow, this guy ninja'd me.

That link is exactly the kind of thing I need, sir. This should be enough to put the question to rest, between me and my friend at least. Thank you for the help everyone!

[Franz Lunzer]

Anonymous Warrior wrote:

Ok, my understanding is that the reason for listing the "Belts" and "Headbands" of enhancements as 'no longer temporary after 24 hours' was in order to grant certain benefits that couldn't be accrued while they were 'temporary.'

For example, just because your wizard spams your Wisdom 16 cleric's face full of Owl's Wisdom doesn't mean that said cleric, being a 20th lvl. caster, can prepare 9th level spells (even if the wizard continues to spam through the cleric's hour of meditation.)

The same is true of the cleric that dons the Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4 just before preparing his spells. But if that cleric dons the headband the day before, he can attune it to himself, and thus has a Wisdom of 20 for the purpose of prepping his spells.

Now, if he then removes the headband, he loses the bonus to Wisdom. My understanding, further, is that:
1. He retains, but cannot cast, his spells from level 7th through 9th.
2. His DCs for his spells drop down to what they were before, etc.
3. If he re-dons the headband, he can now cast his spells again.

What I don't know is:
1. Is the headband reset to a 'temporary' bonus for 24?
2. If it is now temporary, is that literally 24 hours, or just until the next day?

AFAIK, all your three statements are correct.

To your questions:
1. Yes, it's a temporary bonus for 24h.
2. It says 24 hours.

[James Risner]

Ten'shun the Tengu wrote:

I have a player who swears that after 24 hours of wearing a belt of giants strength (and/or any similar ability score boosting item) the bonus becomes permanent, and he can safely take off the item without losing the bonus.

He is incorrectly applying the rules.

When wearing a belt, after 24 hrs it gets counted as a permanent bonus. The only difference between the belt providing a permanent or temporary bonus is whether or not it works for effects that require the bonus to be permanent. If you remove the belt, the permanent bonus ceases to exist and you have no bonus.

[Tusk the Half-Orc]

You might also point out to the player that it is unlikely that a 4,000 GP magic item like a belt of giant strength will provide him with a benefit that would otherwise require two Wish spells, each of which requires a 25,000 GP diamond as a material component.

Wish