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There's a new feat in Armor Master's Handbook I am rather fond of. It allows you to wield a two handed weapon from the Spear or Pole Arm weapon group while using a shield.
You get a penalty to hit equal to the Shields ACP which doesn't matter as Darkwood is a thing.
Pre Requisites are Armor Training or Shield Focus and BAB +3 or Fighter level 1.
So in my mind between 2 and 7 points of AC is a real steal for a single Feat. Personally I'm very fond of the idea of pairing it with a No-Dachi (which for some odd reason founds its way into the pole arms fighter group).
So what kind of builds could get the most out of this?
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Is it a two-handed weapon wielded in one hand, or does it still count as a two-handed weapon for 1.5x STR & PA? If the former, it's not bad, but with a nodachi it's just adding a point of damage more than a katana. In that case, the main advantage is using a reach weapon in combination with a shield.
If the latter (1.5x STR & PA with a shield) - it seems pretty crazy, especially with a Slayer shield-bashing TWF build, eventually getting 2.5x STR.
So - it depends upon the specific wording.
It does scream reach weapon. A divine Caster who can use their first turn to buff and move into position is good. Or a Bloodrager, they get a lot of good reach tools. Enlarge being one. The extra AC will offset rage penalties.
I'd assume if it still applies 1.5 STR and PA you can't shield bash. FAQs seem to prevent that already.
Edit: Actually what would be interesting is if you can still threaten with rhe shield. A Slayer, Ranger, or anyone who gets shield master could really do fun things with that.
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appropriately for you from the polearm or spears weapon
group while also using a light, heavy, or tower shield with
which you are proficient. The shield’s armor check penalty
(if any) applies to attacks made with the weapon.
It's a two handed weapon, but it doesn't state it's being wielded in one hand. Per the FAQ, I think it technically allows 1.5 STR damage. It is similar to how using a lance on horseback works in that you are leveraging the mass of the shield to make up for the lost hand.
It's not a style feat...I think from the way it's worded you can't combine it with twf as it requires a two handed weapon sized appropriately for you.
What you can get is two handed damage with Sword and Board AC. I think that's pretty awesome as to date the only way to pull that off is the two handed Shield Slam Ranger/Slayer. But now I can do it with a No-Dachi or reach weapon...
I was also thinking about Cleric or Divine Casters cause they can add MV to both Shield amd Armor so that means a lot of AC. But here you won't have a free hand for casting...Crusader Cleric would be nice as Shield Focus is on the bonus feat list.
Paladin prolly won't work for a lack of free hand...
Bloodrager Steelblood would be cool as it gets Armor Training.
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Enlarge being one.
As odd as it is, I've found that Enlarge works rather badly with reach weapons. While the normal 5ft threat gap around yourself with a reach weapon isn't too bad since you can 5ft step back, a large person with a reach weapon has a 10ft threat gap which can make them rather vulnerable in close.
Edit: Actually what would be interesting is if you can still threaten with rhe shield. A Slayer, Ranger, or anyone who gets shield master could really do fun things with that.
I'm pretty sure the shield would still threaten which is actually quite nice with a reach weapon even without Shield Bash.
I'm also 100% sure that this is not gonna allow you to TWF with a two handed weapon and a shield.
** spoiler omitted **
It's a two handed weapon, but it doesn't state it's being wielded in one hand. Per the FAQ, I think it technically allows 1.5 STR damage. It is similar to how using a lance on horseback works in that you are leveraging the mass of the shield to make up for the lost hand.
So awesome! Yeah, it looks like it definitely gets 1.5x str damage because it's still a two-handed weapon. I love this! The spear-and-shield is one of the most ubiquitous forms of melee combat throughout the world. You could see it in ancient civilizations throughout history throughout the world. Super awesome.
Enlarge being one.As odd as it is, I've found that Enlarge works rather badly with reach weapons. While the normal 5ft threat gap around yourself with a reach weapon isn't too bad since you can 5ft step back, a large person with a reach weapon has a 10ft threat gap which can make them rather vulnerable in close.
There are plenty of ways to fill that gap though between being a monk, armor spikes, bites, etc. Often this means not benefiting from your weapon enhancements, though. But this feat and Shield Master would give you a close range threat because as you spend money enchanting your shield bonus it will go to your offense.
So do you still get the Shield AC when you use this?
There are plenty of ways to fill that gap though between being a monk, armor spikes, bites, etc. Often this means not benefiting from your weapon enhancements, though. But this feat and Shield Master would give you a close range threat because as you spend money enchanting your shield bonus it will go to your offense.
So why'd you wanna go and do that?
If I had a super awesome Shield and Shield Master I 'd use it to bash folks into the ground and wouldn't worry about a polearm.
Also I'd be asking myself why I invested 5 feats to make myself an awesome back up weapon. But maybe I'm missing something here...
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Tower shield is the way to go here in my opinion. Ravingdork just put out a nodachi build, actually.You apply the ACP of the shield to your attack rolls. A tower shield has a -10, or -8 Darkwood, or -7 Mithral unless you really specialize in it as a fighter.
Yeah Tower Shield is super specific and costs lots of feats and really only gives you 2 more points of AC compared to a heavy shield for your worries.
Spear Dance Style would prolly work for TWF. Prolly best paired with Elven Branched Spear.
There are plenty of ways to fill that gap though between being a monk, armor spikes, bites, etc. Often this means not benefiting from your weapon enhancements, though. But this feat and Shield Master would give you a close range threat because as you spend money enchanting your shield bonus it will go to your offense.So why'd you wanna go and do that?
If I had a super awesome Shield and Shield Master I 'd use it to bash folks into the ground and wouldn't worry about a polearm.
Also I'd be asking myself why I invested 5 feats to make myself an awesome back up weapon. But maybe I'm missing something here...
If you're a Ranger or Slayer you can get it done with one feat. (Maybe two if you want Improved Shield Bash.) And there's a lot of reasons to like that set up. Massive battle field control. Add Sheild Slam to knock f*+$ers out of your threat zone so they have to provoke again by closing. Also having a secondary weapon you don't need to draw can have benefits if you become grappled, or need to alternate material or damage types.
Nothing game breaking, but it is pretty neat.
Since it isnt specifically called out, TWF/shield bash likely isnt intended to work and therefore will likely be errata'd, but the current wording doesnt forbit it.I don't think it does. The feat lets you use a shield while also using a two handed polearm, but it doesn't actually reduce the handedness of the weapon and you already can't TWF with a two handed weapon normally (as per FAQ on armor spikes).
The FAQ rules out making unarmed/gauntlet/spike attacks because you are already using both hands. Generally, having a two handed weapon rules out any other additional things you can do/wield, such as additional attacks or shields.
This feat however lets you use a shield despite the fact the you use a two handed weapon. Logically, this would overrule previous FAQs. Unless you have it somewhere that "using" a shield is somehow a different state that doesnt allow shield bashs.
But again: this seems more like a oversight that allows things RAW that werent intended and is likely going to be errata'd. (Altough I would find it really cool if it werent).
Whats really interesting though, is if it works with double weapons/spear dance.
Hmm seeing that double weapons are classified as two handed weapons technically this would work. There is also one or two double weapons in the spear fighter weapon group.
So builds...
Dwarf Crusader Cleric of Torag
STR 16 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 10
Traits: Fate's Favored, Seeker
Domain: Earth
Feats
1 Energy Channel
1 Heavy Armor Prof
3 Power Attack
5 Shield Focus
5 Shield Brace
7 Shielded Mage
9 Steel Soul
10 WF: Longspear
11 Divine Interference
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So builds...
Dwarf Crusader Cleric of Torag
STR 16 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 10
Traits: Fate's Favored, Seeker
Domain: Earth
Feats
1 Energy Channel
1 Heavy Armor Prof
3 Power Attack
5 Shield Focus
5 Shield Brace
7 Shielded Mage
9 Steel Soul
10 WF: Longspear
11 Divine Interference
I'd swap out weapon focus for combat reflexes. You really want it with a reach weapon.
** spoiler omitted **
It's a two handed weapon, but it doesn't state it's being wielded in one hand. Per the FAQ, I think it technically allows 1.5 STR damage. It is similar to how using a lance on horseback works in that you are leveraging the mass of the shield to make up for the lost hand.
That FAQ you linked to does not agree with what you are saying, it says literally "If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on."
That says you treat your Two Handed Pole-arm as a One Handed Weapon when applying Strength modifiers. Now I do not have access to the Complete Armorers book atm so the feature there may be an exception to the FAQ.
Yeah, a two handed weapon wielded in one hand gets damage bonuses like a one hander, but according to the text Imbicatus wrote, you don't actually wield the polearm in one hand.
I'd swap out weapon focus for combat reflexes. You really want it with a reach weapon.
Build lacks the DEX for Combat Reflexes and weapon Focus comes from Crusader Cleric 10 which doesn't grant combat reflexes anyhow.
What I dislike about the combination of Reach Weapon and shield is that with a reach weapon you are not as dependent on your AC in the first place. Tactically you might find that smart opponents avoid you as a) they don't want to eat your AoO and b) they can't hit your AC.
Who does need that little bit of extra AC is a Two Handed Ranger/Slayer as it's limited to medium armor.
So here's a list of weapons eligible for use with the Shield Brace feat i.e. two handed weapons from the Spear and Pole Arm weapon group. Fairly few simple weapons among them, also a number of weapons which do not have reach, a few weapons are also double weapons. To me the standout martial weapon is the No-Dachi due to it's 18-20 crit range. The Fauchard, Naginata, Elven Branched Spear and Ripsaw Glaive stand out in the Exotic category.
Glaive, Helbarde, Ranseur and Naginata are available to Clerics and Inquisitors.
boarding pike, S
longspear, S
spear, S no reach
weighted spear S no reach
lance, M
planson, M
sarissa, M
tiger fork, M
Bardiche M
bec de corbin, M
bill, M
nodachi M no reach
ranseur, M
tiger fork M
glaive, M
glaive-guisarme, M
guisarme, M
halberd, M
hooked lance, M x4
horsechopper, M
lucerne hammer, M
monk's spade, M double, no reach
ogre hook M
barbed spear, E no reach
chain spear, E double no reach
elven branched spear, E, M for Elves
flask pike, E
harpoon, E no reach
injection spear, E no reach
orc skull ram, E
syringe spear, E no reach
totem spear, E no reach
boarding gaff, E, double+reach
crook, E
fauchard, E reach 18-20/x2
flailpole, E
mancatcher, E
naginata E
ripsaw glaive E
Another Build idea. This one is a ranger which uses Skirmisher to get free retaliatory attacks from Vengance Strike. Gorum's combat style gets you Cleaving Finish at 6 and Imp. Vital Strike at 10. This one might be better as a Half Orc... also this build might be neglecting AC so much that the extra 5 points from the shield don't make AC relevant at higher levels. At level 9 AC would likely be 27 (or 25 enlarged) which is prolly still okay.
Dwarf Skirmisher Ranger
STR 18 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 16 CHA 5
Traits:
Accelerated Drinker/Glory of Old
1 Shield Focus
2 PA
3 Shield Brace
5 WF (No-Dachi)
6 Cleaving Finish
7 Steel Soul
9 Imp. Critical (No-Dachi)
10 Imp. Vital Strike
11 ???
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This is very similar to the polearm fighter who can wield polearm or spear in one hand while fighting with a shield. Admittedly the language is different and it doesn't specifically say it one handed but given your using the shield with one hand you would only have one hand to hold the spear/polearm unless you have 3 usable hands??
** spoiler omitted **
It's a two handed weapon, but it doesn't state it's being wielded in one hand. Per the FAQ, I think it technically allows 1.5 STR damage. It is similar to how using a lance on horseback works in that you are leveraging the mass of the shield to make up for the lost hand.That FAQ you linked to does not agree with what you are saying, it says literally "If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on."
That says you treat your Two Handed Pole-arm as a One Handed Weapon when applying Strength modifiers. Now I do not have access to the Complete Armorers book atm so the feature there may be an exception to the FAQ.
The FAQ only applies to "When a feat or other special ability says to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon". Shield Brace does not allow you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. It allows you to "use a two-handed weapon sized appropriately for you from the polearm or spears weapon group while also using a light, heavy, or tower shield with
which you are proficient."|
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It's a historical 'combat style', Macedonian hoplite units used longspears (or pikes) and smaller shields strapped to their arms in a looser more mobile and aggressive phalanx formation than the greeks (shorter spears and larger shields locked together into a shield wall). That is where this feat comes from. Historically it was a wall of five or more spear points that stopped the enemy getting too close and in terms of game mechanics that's not such an issue.
While it was historically very effective (though would have sucked in time periods when fortifications were more of a thing) you are entirely wrong about it being a looser formation. It was even less mobile and more front-loaded than a Greek phalanx. They used smaller shields so that they could use both hands for their massive pikes.
In the more skirmish style combat of Pathfinder, a Macedonian pike & shield would be horrible. Once their lines were broken, they were basically helpless against those with smaller weaponry.
It was the Roman phalanx which was looser & more mobile. Which they used to outmaneuver and flank the Macedonian phalanx.
It's a historical 'combat style', Macedonian hoplite units used longspears (or pikes) and smaller shields strapped to their arms in a looser more mobile and aggressive phalanx formation than the greeks (shorter spears and larger shields locked together into a shield wall). That is where this feat comes from. Historically it was a wall of five or more spear points that stopped the enemy getting too close and in terms of game mechanics that's not such an issue.While it was historically very effective (though would have sucked in time periods when fortifications were more of a thing) you are entirely wrong about it being a looser formation. It was even less mobile and more front-loaded than a Greek phalanx. They used smaller shields so that they could use both hands for their massive pikes.
In the more skirmish style combat of Pathfinder, a Macedonian pike & shield would be horrible. Once their lines were broken, they were basically helpless against those with smaller weaponry.
It was the Roman phalanx which was looser & more mobile. Which they used to outmaneuver and flank the Macedonian phalanx.
As you seem to know what you are talking about... do you know of any videos or imagry of folks fighting with a two handed spear and a shield?
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As you seem to know what you are talking about... do you know of any videos or imagry of folks fighting with a two handed spear and a shield?It's a historical 'combat style', Macedonian hoplite units used longspears (or pikes) and smaller shields strapped to their arms in a looser more mobile and aggressive phalanx formation than the greeks (shorter spears and larger shields locked together into a shield wall). That is where this feat comes from. Historically it was a wall of five or more spear points that stopped the enemy getting too close and in terms of game mechanics that's not such an issue.While it was historically very effective (though would have sucked in time periods when fortifications were more of a thing) you are entirely wrong about it being a looser formation. It was even less mobile and more front-loaded than a Greek phalanx. They used smaller shields so that they could use both hands for their massive pikes.
In the more skirmish style combat of Pathfinder, a Macedonian pike & shield would be horrible. Once their lines were broken, they were basically helpless against those with smaller weaponry.
It was the Roman phalanx which was looser & more mobile. Which they used to outmaneuver and flank the Macedonian phalanx.
No - I don't know of any re-enactors who do it (it only worked well in groups of 50+, and I don't think most re-enactment groups would be big enough anyway) I'm basing it upon knowledge of historical battles - specifically one between the Romans & troops using the Macedonian phalanx. The Macedonians were doing well early, but they hadn't had time to form up their units properly (it took an hour or two to form up properly in a Macedonian phalanx) and when they were eventually flanked they were slaughtered in droves. (The Romans didn't play by the rules. In what's now Greece, once a trooper put their pike vertical they had given up and weren't supposed to be attacked anymore. The Romans didn't get that memo and just started slaughtering them once their units broke.)
Though it should be noted - by then the Macedonian phalanx had become even more front-loaded than it had been under Alexander the Great, getting longer pikes and heavier armor to fight other Macedonian phalanxes. (but inherent disadvantages vs more mobile/flexible troops)
I will check my kindle at home to remember the excellent book about the Greek phalanx and how they actually fought. The historian that wrote it really challenges some of the notions we had about how exactly they fought.
I personally have always wanted more options in Pathfinder to allow you to use a two handed weapon aka polearm while also using a shield. It is historically one of the most basic and successful martial styles in world history.
As you seem to know what you are talking about... do you know of any videos or imagry of folks fighting with a two handed spear and a shield?Probably not, but I found a picture of folks posing in an aggressive manner with Macedonian and Greek phalanx kit.
http://i52.tinypic.com/11jufyv.jpg
You can see that the guy on the left has a shield with a neck strap and a strap near the elbow and has both hands on his long spear.
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Linked.As you seem to know what you are talking about... do you know of any videos or imagry of folks fighting with a two handed spear and a shield?Probably not, but I found a picture of folks posing in an aggressive manner with Macedonian and Greek phalanx kit.
http://i52.tinypic.com/11jufyv.jpg
You can see that the guy on the left has a shield with a neck strap and a strap near the elbow and has both hands on his long spear.
Cool pic, looks like Sarissa and shield. And the spearman is clearly using two hands to wield the spear and the shield is not restricting the use of the spear
I found the book. It is A Storm of Spears and truly breaks down how a phalanx would actually fight. I highly recommend it to anyone with any interest in ancient warfare:
http://www.amazon.com/Storm-Spears-Understanding-Greek-Hoplite/dp/161200119 X/ref=sr_1_1?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1461115963&sr=8-1&am p;keywords=a+storm+of+spears
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Cool pic, looks like Sarissa and shield. And the spearman is clearly using two hands to wield the spear and the shield is not restricting the use of the spearPedantically, that depends what you mean by "not restricting". I mean, this must be a viable fighting style. But also, that weight on the arm and that bulk is going to impose some restrictions to movement, so it's not going to have the same offensive potential as if the shield wasn't there.
Mind you, I really want to try this now. But a pike and a shield is probably a bit expensive just to have a go with, considering my budget. :-(
Well, that works with the in-game feat, as the shield's ACP applies to attack rolls.
Normally, real-life and game mechanics don't intersect this closely, but this is a great way to accurately portray this real-world fighting style.