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Just going to also say I don't stop people from talking about creatures because again they don't even do it. If a GM did decide to say something about this I wouldn't think they were out of line though because your character just doesn't know that information based on their check. It is pretty straightforward to be honest.
The OP made a knowledge check which didn't include information his character told. He didn't make his knowledge check. I think you are misrepresenting this.
Why is my discussion completely irrelevant and yet you talking about cheaters somehow more on topic to a knowledge check discussion?
To be honest there is just nothing that supports your argument other than the argument itself. You claim surely your character remembers but I can just as easily say you don't remember because it be represented by your knowledge check. My argument has a game mechanic supporting it. Yours has presumptions made about the game.
After all this discussion you haven't provided anything to the topic other than opinion while other people have provided rules. And just so you know the end all be all section of these rules:
You can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster’s CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster’s CR or more. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.
Action
Usually none. In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action.
Retry? No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.
That knowledge check is the end all be all of what your character knows. You don't know more because you have faced it before. You don't recall anything about it. You might not even recognize it for what it is.
I could sit here and spout off real world parallels about how I can't recall everything I have seen and learned just like your character can't but it isn't even necessary. The mechanic is already written in the rules and that is all that matters.
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The knowledge isn't tied to a duration it is tied to a creature (not a TYPE of creature, an individual) you have tried to identify. You assume it has a duration for some reason.
You keep stating knowledge apparently isn't what a character knows despite the rules saying otherwise and back it up with no proof but a claim to common sense.
Since you aren't going to back your argument with anything of substance I think it is safe to leave it at that.
What I think of the situation in the OP:
You used a knowledge check and received information from that creature's stat block representing what your character knows about that creature. When you used player knowledge to reveal more information you metagamed. There isn't a punishment for what you did but clearly the table GM felt you were being unfair in a way that made him speak out.
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Okay, so kind of missed in the discussion but a pertinent point, unless I missed it in the wall o' text?
My character runs into a particular opponent that pretty much needs adamantine to deal with.
At the conclusion of the scenario, with time permitting, said character purchases an adamantine weapon.
Now at the start of the next scenario, do I need to sell that back since RAW I would have *no reason* (ie, K: Blah resets) to have such an item?
Do I get full money for that resale?
This is tongue in cheek, but also somewhat serious, if things are going to go down this path...
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I have not read the entire thread, so forgive me if I am being repetitious. In my real life work as a college professor I have seen numerous situations where a student knew something once and then couldn't recall it correctly in a pressure situation. I'm assuming that fighting a demon is roughly equivalent to taking a calculus test ;-)
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I have not read the entire thread, so forgive me if I am being repetitious. In my real life work as a college professor I have seen numerous situations where a student knew something once and then couldn't recall it correctly in a pressure situation. I'm assuming that fighting a demon is roughly equivalent to taking a calculus test ;-)
I don't think the analogy really holds.
There is a word for a professional adventurer who reacts badly to high pressure, dangerous situations.
Corpse.
Seriously, some people react much better to danger than others. Successful adventurers, by definition, handle it well
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I have not read the entire thread, so forgive me if I am being repetitious. In my real life work as a college professor I have seen numerous situations where a student knew something once and then couldn't recall it correctly in a pressure situation. I'm assuming that fighting a demon is roughly equivalent to taking a calculus test ;-)
I'd rather take my chances with the demon
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This is very much an organised play-specific issue, and not even a new one.
Campaign leadership should make a decision on how to handle this, and the ruling should be in the PFS guide.
A word of warning, though.
If a GM is constrained to be painfully precise and exact, players will leave the campaign. EDIT: Some GMs might quit, too, because that's a loss of control over a given table that'd be horrible to handle, and a searing indictment of the amount of trust a given campaign gives their GMs.
If someone whips out the Bestiary in the middle of a scenario and goes "Well, it's *insert name here* and it has Blah", that should very much fall into the *cheating* category.
If, on the other hand, someone's character is dominated by a given other-planar being and struggled through that scenario trying to shake it off and it ultimately caused a mission failure, for example, that should be allowed to 'play through' because it helps develop a character, make it something a bit more than just a bunch of numbers and letters on a sheet of paper...
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But if you fought something before, how would you magically forget that you fought it and forget important things such as, I don't know, what it's weaknesses are?Your GM is correct, but he should have given you a bonus on the roll (honor system). Just because you remember doesn't mean your PC remembers.
Having said that, the Pathfinder Knowledge skills in general need to be streamlined and simplified more.
(Bolding mine) Wait, what if my PC remembers the monster, but I (the player) doesn't?
I mean, my PC has a photographic memory (mind chemist), but I don't. What if I fought the creature last adventure for the PC - but that was a year of real time for my less than photographic player memory. Can I get information about the beast - if I don't actually know I have encountered it before (but my PC would?)
let's take this even a step farther. Let's set up the situation
- The party encounters a Swarm of spiders.
- Initiative is rolled and I go first.
- My PC has no ranks in the required knowledge skill. (Kn: Nature?)
- I have no memory if my PC has encountered swarms before... it's been a long time sense I played him and I'm older than I once was (and I have a lot of PCs to try to keep strait...)
- I glance at my Chronicles and see that he played The Confirmation... which MIGHT have a swarm of spiders in it. So he might have fought them before... with someone who would have told him how to fight them...
So, am I meta-gaming if I pull my flask of Alchemist fire and throw it at the swarm? Am I "reverse-meta-gaming" if I DON'T?
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- I glance at my Chronicles and see that he played The Confirmation... which MIGHT have a swarm of spiders in it. So he might have fought them before... with someone who would have told him how to fight them...
So, am I meta-gaming if I pull my flask of Alchemist fire and throw it at the swarm? Am I "reverse-meta-gaming" if I DON'T?
If you, the player, can't remember what your character did or did not do, then you should error on the side of conservatism and assume you didn't learn it, or your character has forgotten what exactly happened during the encounter. After all, PFS operates on the honor system and players should not try to exploit that.
The GM should not give a player info unless the character rolls the appropriate K. check. Whether or not your character would have remembered how to fight swarms or whether your character actually learned how to fight swarms is unknowable by the GM. If the player cannot recall such information unassisted, the GM should not provide it.
LOL! But I know what to do - did I learn it when I played that scenario? or when I played another? or when I RAN that scenario?
If I "should error on the side of conservatism and assume you didn't learn it" - then we can assume that I only know it if I happen to roll it. But if I actually never learned it, and it's all new to me, but I do happen to roll it (this time), then it's ok to assume I did learn it... at least until I have to roll it again and then miss it. At which point I never learned it...
But then, if I DO remember fighting swarms (with this PC), then it is ok to assume that my PC learned the things I, personally, know?
without Kn:local you don't remember your own name nor your class stats etc , you cant move !!
This isn't true. You can make easy Knowledge checks untrained.
The flip side of that is that people do, in fact, forget things, including things that one would thing in retrospect would be obvious. Mental lapses happen, which is why "brain fart" is such a common phrase (It's even listed in the Oxford Dictionaries).
So, yes, it's completely plausible that a character, especially in the heat of combat, could and would momentarily forget something that she had experienced but not actually paid a lot of attention to (e.g. didn't put any skill points into "learning"), or even forget something she had actually learned.
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So, yes, it's completely plausible that a character, especially in the heat of combat, could and would momentarily forget something that she had experienced but not actually paid a lot of attention to (e.g. didn't put any skill points into "learning"), or even forget something she had actually learned.
The flaw in the system is that it is no easier for me to identify a CR X creature that I have fought 10 times before vs a CR X creature I have never encountered. No matter how many ranks I put into the knowledge skills this NEVER changes (assuming both creatures are the same type or my bonus in the relevant skills are the same).
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So, yes, it's completely plausible that a character, especially in the heat of combat, could and would momentarily forget something that she had experienced but not actually paid a lot of attention to (e.g. didn't put any skill points into "learning"), or even forget something she had actually learned.The flaw in the system is that it is no easier for me to identify a CR X creature that I have fought 10 times before vs a CR X creature I have never encountered.
Granted. But that's a much less severe flaw than the idea that all characters have perfect memories. Especially since there is a mechanism in place to represent learning from encounters -- putting skill points into the relevant things.
Or even "Hay, I already faced this thing once. I should know how to fight it if I already did it once (and I remember doing it)."
"That's fine. Now roll Knowledge (religion) to see if you remember fighting it."
The problem being that one decayed human corpse looks rather like another. is it ghoul, a ghast, a vampire, a fresh zombie, an animated skeletal golem in a meat suit?
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[More venting]There is a very similar issue with spellcraft.
GM : Bad guy throws a spell
Player : Spellcraft : Oops, got an 8. Don't know
GM: Right, you do NOT recognize what the spell is as a bead of fire leaves the casters hand and bursts into a bunch of flame. A ball sized chunk of flame
One really, really should get a bonus for spellcraft if it is on your spell list and an even higher bonus if it is a spell known/prepared
[/more Venting]
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Okay, so kind of missed in the discussion but a pertinent point, unless I missed it in the wall o' text?
My character runs into a particular opponent that pretty much needs adamantine to deal with.
At the conclusion of the scenario, with time permitting, said character purchases an adamantine weapon.
Now at the start of the next scenario, do I need to sell that back since RAW I would have *no reason* (ie, K: Blah resets) to have such an item?
Do I get full money for that resale?
This is tongue in cheek, but also somewhat serious, if things are going to go down this path...
"And you may ask yourself...'This is not my beautiful Lodge!',
"And you may ask yourself...'This is not my adamantine, holy greatsword!',"And you may ask yourself...'These are not my usual adventuring companions!',
"And you may ask yourself...'This is not my usual Venture Captain!'.
"And you may ask yourself...'How did I GET here?'
'Who ARE these people?'
'Why did I BUY this thing?'
Letting roleplay go by...turning up, week after week.
Forgotten metaplots....'Who is Blakros, of whom you speak?'
'Remember Master Torch?'...'I know no-body of that name.'
'My memory's shot to Hell'...'Maybe the drinking is to blame.'
Despite assertions to the contrary, the K. system is not a system for what the character remember from direct experiences. The K. checks represent knowledge you've learned from second hand sources.
Well, a source backing that up would be nice... But I'm pretty sure you don't have one.
If you want to say you learned your Know(Nature) from a book, or from a teacher, OK. If you want to say you learned your Know(Nature) from scrounging for food and medicine while growing up, OK. If you want to say you learned your recently gained Know(Nature) rank from adventuring in the woods and fighting animals and fey, OK.There just isn't such a distinction of direct/indirect knowledge anywhere in the rules.
Both fall under Knowledge, one is not exempt/outside scope of the skill.
Does this mean if I come from a place like falcons hollow full of fey and werewolves that I am metagaming buying a cold iron morning star and silver dagger from starting wealth???My character runs into a particular opponent that pretty much needs adamantine to deal with.
At the conclusion of the scenario, with time permitting, said character purchases an adamantine weapon.
Now at the start of the next scenario, do I need to sell that back since RAW I would have *no reason* (ie, K: Blah resets) to have such an item?
No, simply those items being commonly sold/purchased to deal with a common threat is rationale enough (likewise, so is passing a Know check once to realize said creature has DR/Adamantine is reason enough to later purchase an Adamantine weapon. you don't need to make a Know(Check) to remember you fought a creature which you realized had DR/Adamantine and decided you should get such a weapon). You continue to have the item in your inventory, and have an accurate understanding of why you bought it ("To deal with fey and werewolves"). Now if you want to use those weapons all the time vs. every enemy then you never need to worry about justifying using them vs. a given enemy.
If you normally want to use another weapon, then you should justify using the special weapon vs. a given enemy... A Knowledge Check being the way to ID a vulnerability (or belonging to group "fey and werewolves"). Now, if you don't pass said Check in a given instance, you won't recognize said vulnerability/ID the creature, but if your regular weapon is clearly ineffective because of DR, then it's reasonable to try using the Silver/Cold Iron weapon even without perfect character Knowledge/memory.
There's plenty of reasons why one can not pass a Know check/ "remember" vs. a creature type you previously fought. Perhaps they are different "ethnicities" with different features. Perhaps it was long ago. Perhaps you have other stuff on your mind. Perhaps your physical state is impairing your mental capacity. Perhaps your perceptions were distracted to focus on other details besides the ones that would demonstrate it is the same creature type you fought before. Etc.
Doesn't really matter... If you fail the check, you can't access that knowledge for some reason, so that's what you should role-play. Choosing to say "I always remember that info after having once succeeded/interacted with that" doesn't conform to the rules OR real-life memory dynamic.
Of course the GM is free to apply appropriate "Favorable Condition" modifiers if they seem to apply.
And of course, people do metagame. That's not how the rules direct us to play the game though.
You are educated in a field of study and can answer both simple and complex questions.
Which flat out does not speak to Knowledge being exclusive to 2nd hand sources, i.e. excluding direct experience.
All your knowledge prior to starting your character is your K check.
Except there is no rules difference between a rank added "before starting your character" and a rank added after starting and playing your character, whether not said rank is fluffed by in-character organized study/2nd hand knowledge or dis-organized direct knowledge.
Once you start your character, the in-character experiences become part of the body of knowledge that K. checks are not intended to encapsulate. That having been said, its certainly acceptable for a player to leave it all up to K. check rolls and not try and draw upon in-character outcomes.
Wait, you say that K. checks are specifically not meant to cover in-character experiential knowledge/learning... Yet if you want it to, then that's fine? So which is it? Knowledge/Education can just as well cover self-education and direct experience, nothing excludes that... Nor is there any requirement to find outside teaching in order to add a rank to a Know skill.
While it's popular for players to have backstories that suggest their character has come from a war, or has grown up fighting in the streets, when you start out with 0 xp, you have no combat experience.
Where is that stated? XP tracks successful encounters run by the GM. Anything not run as interactive encounter does not invoke XP. That covers combat before the game starts, as well as off screen events. Likewise every monster AND ANIMAL does not need to have XP and thus class levels for every entity they have killed/eaten.
If the K check system were designed to encapsulate all that a character has experienced directly, and prevent a player from drawing upon a character's specific encounters there would be some discussion or contemplation regarding something you just fought in the previous room.
Get real, the rules don't delve into meta-rules discussions in countless areas, get over it.
And honestly, it rolls both ways... When the player cannot remember/doesn't know a game mechanical detail about a creature type, or cannot remember an encounter previously run... The character still benefits from a Knowledge check, which can reasonably benefit from "Favourable Circumstance Bonus" if having faced same creature with same relevant ability having been directly experienced.
The scaling Circumstance Bonus is a more than reasonable route for a GM to include "plausibility". I'm not saying that said bonus is entirely sufficient to cover "plausibility" or "common sense", I'm not saying the game rules are perfect, I'm just stating what the game rules are (not invoking my own "common sense" as TheJeff claimed without quoting said claim). Issues of "should you recognize same creature/vulnerability as you just encounted in previous room" just don't appear different than the MULTITUDE of issues that are swept under the rug in play, from not calling for Perception checks for the Sun, or the table in the room, etc. If you want to roll like the GM just says "The new room has more Orcs like the last one, except with different haircuts" and everybody assumes same vulnerabilities apply, no big deal, just like no big deal for a host of other short-cuts not technically rules legal... It's not inherent in the game rules though.
The game rules do de facto include alot of scope for random "forgetting" even basic stuff, just given d20 variability, even a well educated expert can "forget" in the moment BASIC details that even an Untrained Commoner could get with Take 10, or that they themselves have routinely experienced. It basically comes down to, there is no option "Well, you failed the standard Knowledge check, but now you get to use the same info that would have granted, anyways...". Personally, I don't see why character knowledge/memory should be any more perfect than swinging a sword, and accept the chances of failure the system entails. Obviously nobody rolls a thousand dice for every new room they enter, but likewise I don't treat it as entitlement to get specific benefits.
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Well in my humble opinion, I would say... there are specific things in the pathfinder society guild guide that could... "Guide" the GM into making the appropriate calls. There is common knowledge and if you have run up against something more than three times, it kind of becomes common knowledge.
Earlier some used forgetting their keys. After a few times, you realize that you put your keys in a certain place and go check that place if it's not where you believe you put it.
Eventually, you would do the same with a zombie - which could end up being a mistake since not all zombies are the same and knowing one type may not be the same as knowing one of the "special zombies"
lol