Is there anyway possible to actually get an infusion talent (besides level-1 talents) at the level you qualify for it?
It seems at class level-4, I qualify for level 2 infusions, but can't actually select one until level 5.
And for level-3 infusion talents (which requires class level-6), you can't actually get one until level 9, at which point you'd probably select a level-4 talent anyhow.
I see that if you pick your original element as your expanded element, you can get a level-3 talent at class level-7, but that really hampers the versatility and flavor of having 2 elements.
Even the feat, Extra Wild Talent, (which require you to be level 6, but you don't get feats at level 6, so really you'd be level 7) has a restriction of talents being 2 levels lower than your highest. So youd have to be level 10 (really level-11 since you dont get feats at 10) in order to get a level-3 talent.
I must be missing something obvious, because I am confused at how this class is constructed. You should be able to actually acquire and actually use the features of your class WHEN you qualify to use those features, right?
You arent missing anything, that is just how it is. Utility Talents are accessible at their first correlating level but infusions are always going to be delayed by one.
It is likely a hold over from the playtest of the class when talents were much harder to come by, Mr Seifter upgraded the class to get a talent at every level and just split it down odd/even as to which ended up as infusion and which were utility.
If you are playing in a home game maybe your GM will let you ignore the utility/infusion aspect and just let you choose a talent of either type if you level is high enough?
Edit: Oh, i saw a post somewhere in which Mark said he is still collecting data for possible errata on the class. sorry i cant find the exact quote at the moment.
I'm always gathering data on a lot of topics. That being said, the qualifying at even just makes easier math. I could have also said "You qualify for utility talents of an effective spell level equal to half your kineticist level (minimum 1) and infusions equal to half your level - 1 (rounded up, minimum 1)" but that's awkward. As to level 6 on EWT, you might have multiclassed, and it seemed needlessly punitive to a multiclass character to require level 7 kineticist.
I'm always gathering data on a lot of topics. That being said, the qualifying at even just makes easier math. I could have also said "You qualify for utility talents of an effective spell level equal to half your kineticist level (minimum 1) and infusions equal to half your level - 1 (rounded up, minimum 1)" but that's awkward. As to level 6 on EWT, you might have multiclassed, and it seemed needlessly punitive to a multiclass character to require level 7 kineticist.
Thanks for the response. I get it that it makes it math easier, but it still seems like you are getting jipped out of access to abilities.
And the EWT feat also seems needlessly restrictive in getting access to talents. The 2 levels lower restriction is real tough. I mean some class/race combos can get spells known of just 1 level lower for merely a favored class bonus. Feats are supposed to better than FCB and are more scarce, yet (assuming no multi-class) you are using your level 7 feat to get a level-1 talent. Whereas a spontaneous caster (like a psychic) can use a level 7 FCB to get level-2 spells. Doesn't seem balanced.
I am sure you have worked out all the math, and I am wrong in my assessment.
ps We'll be starting a Giantslayer campaign soon, which I will be playing a earth kineticist, and one of my friends is a going to be a Skald. I wish Kinetic Blasts didnt require concentration because I wont be able to benefit from his song when using blasts. Oh well.
Part of the missing math there is that 2 spells known doesn't mean you can cast more spells. You become more versatile, but still have a very limited resource as to what to cast. Talents are endlessly usable with rare exception unless you choose to go way higher than you should on your burn count. Talents known, of either type, is more valuable to a kineticist than spells known to a caster. Consider that without spending feats, a kineticist will at level 20 know exactly 20 talents. Compare to a wizard who knows over 20 5th level spells alone at that stage.
I do agree that extra wild talent being -2 spell levels (-4 class levels) is pretty sharp. But I can see how it prevents someone from taking the 8th and 9th level abilities of a secondary and even tertiary element. It's not super kind to low level kineticists, but it does prevent people from getting several "18th+ pseudo-capstone powers".
I agree somewhat. I think that kinnys could benefit from either no loss of infusion at 7/15 or from EWT being at a -1 spell level without becoming overpowered. Obviously the first one would be the lesser power boost but either (or both) would be good for a class that doesn't have a high power ceiling.
I do agree that extra wild talent being -2 spell levels (-4 class levels) is pretty sharp.
It's really more of -5 class level because of when you get extra feats. That is very harsh, but it doesn't make for, in my opinion, a bad baseline. Wild Talents are powerful. I just feel like there should be alternate ways of getting wild talents or affecting EWT.
True enough, both things I've questioned. I have noticed you don't actually lose an infusion at 7/15 from expanding to a new element, it's just chosen for you as the basic kinesis of the new element. So you really just get a weak, usually very flavorful, talent on those levels. And yeah, -1 and maybe with the restriction that extra talent can't get you any talent above 7th level would work fine. To me, it's all about the higher level options being limited to make you a true master of only one element.
You do lose out because you're losing a 3rd level infusion for a "basic xxxnesis" utility talent
Which can be totally worthwhile when one started off with an commonly resisted/immune to energy type.
Not on a talent, just one the choice of a good one. You do technically get the same number of talents at the end of play. So does it make sense then to give everyone a talent whether they expanded into a new element or not, and then give people who did expand a basic talent for free as well? Or to allow people to take a different element at level 7 and not learn even the most basic non-blast functions of their element?
I agree it doesn't feel great to lose out on a good talent at that level, but you don't "lose a talent" you just have to pick a very specific one, which probably wasn't the one you wanted.
I get what you're saying and it would be a good argument if it was a utility wild talent you were losing out on (e.g. expand on even levels) but since it is an infusion, the disparity is much more noticeable and compounded by the fact that EWT feat is at a -2 spell level so, unless you want to sacrifice your 4th level infusion for the lost 3rd, you have to wait til level 10 to get your 3rd level. We're talking about foe throw, impale, magnetic, k.whip and snake here. They're not chump infusions. If EWT was at a -1 then it wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue because then we could pick them up with a feat at 9, but we can't.