Kitsune Languages Clarification


Rules Questions


Kitsune "Languages" entry, in part (clarification added) wrote:
Kitsune with high Intelligence scores(12+) can choose from the following: any human language, Aklo, Celestial, Elven, Gnome, and Tengu.

There may be some redundancy in the entry above because Humans may choose any language except druidic, which includes the languages listed subsequently.

Does this mean a kitsune has free choice of all languages except druidic?


Not quite.

Human, as a race, can learn Any languages except Druidic.

Kitsune, as a race, can learn Any Human (subculture) languages in addition to the other languages listed.

In other word Any Human languages means: Varisian, Shanto, Skald, Hallit, Tien, and all other human subculture languages. Not learning language like a human.


Okay. Thanks. Are they considered open-game content? If not, I'll have to think of my own subcultures or house rule a substitution because I'm using a homebrew campaign setting.


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omegatiger121 wrote:
Okay. Thanks. Are they considered open-game content? If not, I'll have to think of my own subcultures or house rule a substitution because I'm using a homebrew campaign setting.

Unless you plan on publishing kitsune of the world and selling it it doesn't matter. You can use anything you want in your own games any way you want.


Got it.

I'm turning this into a general topic on rules clarifications for kitsune.

Does the kitsune's +10 racial bonus on checks to appear human become +13 once she takes a rank in disguise if it's a class skill for her?

Silver Crusade Contributor

omegatiger121 wrote:
Does the kitsune's +10 racial bonus on checks to appear human become +13 once she takes a rank in disguise if it's a class skill for her?

No. She needs at least one rank to get the +3 for being trained in a class skill - the +10 is just icing on top of all that. ^_^

Grand Lodge

omegatiger121 wrote:
Does the kitsune's +10 racial bonus on checks to appear human become +13 once she takes a rank in disguise if it's a class skill for her?

+14, adding her Charisma bonus and any other bonuses she has to Disguise checks, if I understand the question rightly. If she doesn't have a rank in Disguise, it's +10 plus her Charisma.

Grand Lodge

omegatiger121 wrote:
Okay. Thanks. Are they considered open-game content? If not, I'll have to think of my own subcultures or house rule a substitution because I'm using a homebrew campaign setting.

The Pathfinder campaign setting is not open content. If you bought the books, you can of course use any part of them in your home game.


Okay.

Is the following disguise skill of the kitsune I'm currently constructing correct: 7 (17 as human) = 3 Cha + 1 rank + 3 trained (13 as human, trained)?

Silver Crusade Contributor

omegatiger121 wrote:

Okay.

Is the following disguise skill of the kitsune I'm currently constructing correct: 7 (17 as human) = 3 Cha + 1 rank + 3 trained

This is correct. ^_^

omegatiger121 wrote:
(13 as human, trained)?

I'm not sure what you mean here.


Essentially, it's the numerical elaboration from my question on the subject. I'd have edited that into the applicable post if I'd caught it soon enough.

Grand Lodge

omegatiger121 wrote:

Okay.

Is the following disguise skill of the kitsune I'm currently constructing correct: 7 (17 as human) = 3 Cha + 1 rank + 3 trained (13 as human, trained)?

+17 as human = +3 CHA, +1 rank, +3 trained, +10 racial. The distinction probably doesn't matter unless you have some effect that modifies your bonus for a class skill or your racial bonuses.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
omegatiger121 wrote:
Kitsune "Languages" entry, in part (clarification added) wrote:
Kitsune with high Intelligence scores(12+) can choose from the following: any human language, Aklo, Celestial, Elven, Gnome, and Tengu.

There may be some redundancy in the entry above because Humans may choose any language except druidic, which includes the languages listed subsequently.

Does this mean a kitsune has free choice of all languages except druidic?

In addition to the responses above, please note that the Kitsune does have varying entries in different sources that has it knowing different languages from the beginning. (specifically, whether or not it knows Common)


thaX wrote:
omegatiger121 wrote:
Kitsune "Languages" entry, in part (clarification added) wrote:
Kitsune with high Intelligence scores(12+) can choose from the following: any human language, Aklo, Celestial, Elven, Gnome, and Tengu.

There may be some redundancy in the entry above because Humans may choose any language except druidic, which includes the languages listed subsequently.

Does this mean a kitsune has free choice of all languages except druidic?

In addition to the responses above, please note that the Kitsune does have varying entries in different sources that has it knowing different languages from the beginning. (specifically, whether or not it knows Common)

and on top of that runs into the really weird pfs house rule of all races getting common if they don't so if you have one of those tien import kitsune they have common, so if you have one of those tien import kitsune they have tien, senzar, and common.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think it is assumed that the newer source is used. Which languages does the Advanced Race Guide give it? I know Common is one of them.


Advanced Race Guide states they stat with common and Sylvan. With higher intelligence they can learn Any human language, aklo, Celestial, elven, Gnome, Tengu.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Thank you.


Semi-related: Does/can "any human language" include "dead" languages--Azlanti, Ancient Osiriani, etc.--as well?


Is it just me, or is it strange that kitsune have a bonus to appear human, while in human form? Does that mean when they transform into the one human form they can normally appear in, others can tell they are kitsune on a perception check? And if they have

Realistic Likeness
When you are in human form, you can take the shape of a specific individual.

Prerequisite: Kitsune.
Benefit: You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered. When you use your racial change shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to fool others with your impersonation.
Kitsune Magic Items

and use it to impersonate someone, that someone can only be human? Does that mean they get a +20 to the roll (+10 racial to appear human, and +10 circumstance to directly impersonate). Or does the racial bonus get negated because you are trying to appear as a specific human. Or do you end up having to make two rolls, one for how human you appear, and one for how much you look like that specific person. These are weird abilities/feats.


Marvin Ghey wrote:
Semi-related: Does/can "any human language" include "dead" languages--Azlanti, Ancient Osiriani, etc.--as well?

That may depend on how dead and/or secret they are. To put it in Earth terms? Latin's 'dead' but it's still around, taught, and has left a lot of influence behind. Good luck learning Powhatan tho.

Contributor

Joey Cote wrote:

Is it just me, or is it strange that kitsune have a bonus to appear human, while in human form? Does that mean when they transform into the one human form they can normally appear in, others can tell they are kitsune on a perception check? And if they have

Realistic Likeness
When you are in human form, you can take the shape of a specific individual.

Prerequisite: Kitsune.
Benefit: You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered. When you use your racial change shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to fool others with your impersonation.
Kitsune Magic Items

and use it to impersonate someone, that someone can only be human? Does that mean they get a +20 to the roll (+10 racial to appear human, and +10 circumstance to directly impersonate). Or does the racial bonus get negated because you are trying to appear as a specific human. Or do you end up having to make two rolls, one for how human you appear, and one for how much you look like that specific person. These are weird abilities/feats.

Realistic Likeness questions are difficult to answer because the feat isn't worded terribly well. The flavor text and the fact that the feat itself does not modify the change shape rules seems to imply that kitsune are restricted to humans, but I've seen others try to argue otherwise. (Not successfully, mind you, but I've seen it.)

In any case, the bonuses from change shape and Realistic Likeness stack, and it makes more sense why when you look at the Modifiers based on Familiarity rules in the Core Rulebook for Disguise checks. That +10 bonus basically means you cancel out the bonus that someone who is normally very familiar with the person who you are transforming into receives, and for people with less familiarity its a flat-bonus. Basically, you can turn into someone's loved one and could potentially fool even them.


thaX wrote:
I think it is assumed that the newer source is used. Which languages does the Advanced Race Guide give it? I know Common is one of them.

Nope. An older version doesn't obviate a newer one unless it says it does

Grand Lodge

thaX wrote:
I think it is assumed that the newer source is used.

That's up to your GM. In PFS you can choose to use any source you own that is legal for the campaign.

Grand Lodge

Unfortunately, he is talking about PFS. I'm not saying he's right, I'm just saying I know him and that's what I know he's talking about.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered.

Yes, it SHOULD have said "When taking your human form, you precisely mimic the physical features of any human individual you have encountered" if it was meant to only work with human forms.

Likewise, if it was meant to not be limited to humans, it could say "Instead of taking human form you can precisely mimic the physical features of any humanoid individual you have encountered."

Either way could be how it was meant to work. For instance a normal human could disguise themselves as an elf so I don't see why you couldn't be in human form while taking on the features of an elf [-2 check] just like you could change all the other categories the feature could alter if you JUST stick with human [gender –2, age category –2 size –10]. (note I added size as you could take on the features of a child young enough to be a smaller size.)

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