Divine Fighting Technique (Blade and Tankard Style) with Extracts and other Exploit Options

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

Hello community,

Blade and Tankard Style:

Initial Benefit(s): You can wield a tankard (or mug) as a weapon, treating it in all ways as a light mace appropriate for your size. If you engage in two-weapon fighting with a rapier or light weapon in one hand and a tankard in the other, you can drink a potion or other liquid from the tankard or attempt to toss liquid from the tankard as a dirty trick combat maneuver (such as to blind a foe) in place of attacking with it. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for attempting a dirty trick maneuver with a tankard.

I recently found this awesome feat and was quite surprised that there are so few discussions about it on the board. Anyone of you ever had some builds upon this feat and want to share their experience?

What immediately came to my mind was to abuse it with extracts. It says you can drink a potion in place of an attack, so extracts should work fine with it.

So you basically play an investigator or alchemist. Since you need all the TWF feats (and suffer from the usual -2 penalty) and only have 3/4 BAB, you will have some disadvantage at hitting, so Iˋd recommend investigator that gets some boosts to attack rolls.

Next thing you need is this:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/fi ghting-tankard

Now you can place 6 different extracts into the tankard.

Upon level 9 (thatˋs probably when you can afford the tankard easily), you get Improved two-weapon-fighting and can:

- attack with rapier or similar
- drink extract
- attack with rapier at -5
- drink another extract

Or just buy two of them tankards (since they are light maces=light weapons) and do:

- 4x drink extract
next round: unleash hell

An arguable ranged option would be (assuming alchemistˋs bombs are light weapons): Buff with extracts, while you throw bombs (fast bombs discovery required).

Any thoughts on these ideas? Are there other viable options to use this feat? It seems to be absolutely overpowered, getting up to 4 boosts per round for a mere -2 penalty on your attack routine and a few feats that usually need 4 rounds. Overpowered, but awesome!

[Lucy_Valentine]

Quote:

Or just buy two of them tankards (since they are light maces=light weapons) and do:

- 4x drink extract

Well, this part doesn't work, because you aren't TWFing with a rapier, so you can't drink.

But it's a cool idea. Flavour-wise it seems like a Swashbuckler or Daring Champion Cavalier to me, rather than an investigator. Mechanically, it would probably suit a vivisectionist, though that seems like a total flavour clash.

[Cult of Vorg]

It requires 2wf with a tankard and either a rapier or another light weapon.
I've been pondering a 2 tankard build, but don't think you can enchant them as weapons so that sucks. Maybe warpriest could work it with their sacred weapon and buffs.
The lack of enchants means it's really only useful for the blinds and buffs. Maybe rogue or slayer could use it for more reliable sneak attacks.
The 'other liquids' bit seems to work for extracts barring a faqrata. It would have the hassle of loading the tankards until the upgrade. Maybe quick draw required and just store everything in covered tankards.

Also, pretty sure that battle tankard is not allowed in PFS, in case that's relevant.

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

I would disagree with not being able to enchant the tankard. It says in the feat: "treating it in all ways as a light mace appropriate for your size." and a light mace is a weapon that can be enchanted.

Besides, is there a rule that says you cannot enchant improvised weapons? (which it would be if there was not the feat)

In the Extract build, combining it with rapier would probably negate the problem, because you either buff yourself with it or do dirty trick maneuvers. Lots of good stuff aside from damaging. I would rather concentrate on maximizing the rapier.

On the two tankards build it is relevant though.

PFS is not relevant for me, but good to know though.

The feat text also says "or attempt to toss liquid from the tankard as a dirty trick combat maneuver (such as to blind a foe)"

This does not mean it nessecarily HAS to blind the foe, right? You could also - I donˋt know - toss some mud into their mouth to sicken them, or into their ears to deafen them? (this sounds pretty unrealistic I admit). Iˋm still searching for a way to entangle someone with tossing liquid but I guess thatˋs kind of impossible :(

[mikkelibob]

Prof. Löwenzahn wrote:

Besides, is there a rule that says you cannot enchant improvised weapons? (which it would be if there was not the feat)

Was this the face that launch'd a thousand ships,

/ And burnt the topless towers of Ilium.

Or stated another way, whether improvised weapons can be enchanted is a well trodden battlefield. Until an official FAQ equivalent to the Council of Constantinople's denouncement of arianism, the forum violence will not cease.

[Alex Mack]

There's really no indication that this should work with extracts. It says it works with potions but using an extract is like casting a spell and will always require a standard action.

Still this is a good feat but sadly worded a bit ambiguous and based on how the advanced version is worded I'm assuming you can only use the contents of a standard tankard once per combat (either to drink or to attempt a dirty trick).

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

Alex Mack wrote:

There's really no indication that this should work with extracts. It says it works with potions but using an extract is like casting a spell and will always require a standard action.

Still this is a good feat but sadly worded a bit ambiguous and based on how the advanced version is worded I'm assuming you can only use the contents of a standard tankard once per combat (either to drink or to attempt a dirty trick).

I can see two indications, really:

1.) It says "potion or other liquid". Since extracts are pretty much liquids, it works RAW.
2.) It says "potions" and extracts are said to function like potions.

You might argue that effects which only affect potions are not usable with extracts (such as the acclererated drinker trait), but this wording of all liquids working with the feat seems quite obvious.

Potions work like using a spell as well, by the way.
And spells do not require Standard Actions per se. Quicken spell, Warpriest Fervor, Bloodrager Blood Conduit, Bloodrager spells that are casted as free Actions with greater bloodrage, Magus Spellstrike. The list of non Standard Action Spells is quite big.

I agree that you can use the tankard`s content only once (unless you refilll it of course), that's why I suggested the fighting tankard with 6 extradimensional spaces.

[Magog]

I didn't know about this feat. I may have to revisit my warpriest of Caiden idea "The Saint Of Bar Fights"

[Manly-man teapot]

Even if you can't do it with extracts, 1. level potions are still cheap. You should be able to put multiple doses of the same potion, such as Vanish, in the same plain tankard.

[Ellioti]

Other classes that can semi-profit of this style are Drunken Master Monk (slightly difficult alignment-wise) and Barbarians who have many alcohol related rage powers.
Extracts would best, of course.

But what about a Drunken Master 4 / Unchained Barbarian 16 shifting from LN to TN at 5.

[MageHunter]

Magog wrote:

I didn't know about this feat. I may have to revisit my warpriest of Caiden idea "The Saint Of Bar Fights"

The priest of Cayden Cailean immediately springs up, finally having a way to blend booze and blade. "Down with the beer, and out with the rapier!" Booze and Blade has to be the best fighting style ever!

[Alex Mack]

So here's the advanced Benefit from the feat which becomes available from level 10 onwards.

Spoiler:

Advanced Benefit(s): You can refill your tankard with a beverage, potion, or other liquid from a bottle or vial as a swift action. You gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to perform dirty tricks with tankards. The effects of such a dirty trick lasts for 1d4 rounds + 1 round for every 5 points by which the result of your combat maneuver check exceeds the target's CMD; a standard action is required for the target to remove this penalty.

This makes me believe that you probably can't use the liquid in the tankard more than once. At least Evil GMs will likely feel that way. One way to get around this is to carry multiple tankards around and use quick draw to draw a new one. This way you can use the tankard to Buff in the first round of combat and then to dirty trick in later rounds. Incidentally Ultimate Intrigue includes a Swashbuckler Archetype which picks up Quick Draw at level 1 so a single dip could get you Quick Draw the Combat Style Feat and Weapon Finesse.

The big question I've been trying to figure out how to get the most out of this. A Gnome Drunken master with Bewildering Koan would be quite interesting but alignment really makes it rather difficult.

The other very obvious option is a TWF Dirty Trick build which ideally adds some sneak attack to the mix to stab blinded foes.

There's prolly other fun things you can do with Barbarian but I haven't looked into that.

[Ellioti]

Drunken brute Barbarian gets one rund of rage per alcoholic beverage. Might be a way to fuel your otherwise limited rounds of rage due to only dipping barbarian.

[Alex Mack]

Ellioti wrote:

Drunken brute Barbarian gets one rund of rage per alcoholic beverage. Might be a way to fuel your otherwise limited rounds of rage due to only dipping barbarian.

Is giving up an off hand atttack worth gettintg a free round of rage? Maybe as a back up plan but usually I'd prefer to blind opponents.

[Ellioti]

Alex Mack wrote:

The big question I've been trying to figure out how to get the most out of this. A Gnome Drunken master with Bewildering Koan would be quite interesting but alignment really makes it rather difficult.

Aasimar with Scion of Humanity racial trait, Enlightened Warrior race trait and Racial Heritage (Gnome) feat is the "obvious" way :P

Alex Mack wrote:

The other very obvious option is a TWF Dirty Trick build which ideally adds some sneak attack to the mix to stab blinded foes.

Maybe Vexing Dodger and/or the Underhanded rogue talent

[Alex Mack]

Ellioti wrote:

Alex Mack wrote:

The big question I've been trying to figure out how to get the most out of this. A Gnome Drunken master with Bewildering Koan would be quite interesting but alignment really makes it rather difficult.

Aasimar with Scion of Humanity racial trait, Enlightened Warrior race trait and Racial Heritage (Gnome) feat is the "obvious" way :P

Sadly that doesn't work...

Enlightend Warrior:

Benefit: You may take levels in monk even while maintaining a neutral or neutral good alignment.

The divine Fighting Technique requires that you are CG.

Edit: actually it would work if you are a NG Wapriest, Cleric or Inquisitor and give up a blessing or domain power...

Ellioti wrote:

Maybe Vexing Dodger and/or the Underhanded rogue talent

Underhanded looks really good. Especially the part about the opponents inability to remove blinded. Now all you need is buffs to your CMB. Is a Slayer eligible to take it?

[lareman]

Prof. Löwenzahn wrote:

Alex Mack wrote:

There's really no indication that this should work with extracts. It says it works with potions but using an extract is like casting a spell and will always require a standard action.

Still this is a good feat but sadly worded a bit ambiguous and based on how the advanced version is worded I'm assuming you can only use the contents of a standard tankard once per combat (either to drink or to attempt a dirty trick).

I can see two indications, really:

1.) It says "potion or other liquid". Since extracts are pretty much liquids, it works RAW.
2.) It says "potions" and extracts are said to function like potions.

You might argue that effects which only affect potions are not usable with extracts (such as the acclererated drinker trait), but this wording of all liquids working with the feat seems quite obvious.

Potions work like using a spell as well, by the way.
And spells do not require Standard Actions per se. Quicken spell, Warpriest Fervor, Bloodrager Blood Conduit, Bloodrager spells that are casted as free Actions with greater bloodrage, Magus Spellstrike. The list of non Standard Action Spells is quite big.

I agree that you can use the tankard`s content only once (unless you refilll it of course), that's why I suggested the fighting tankard with 6 extradimensional spaces.

Since Accelerated Drinker doesn't work with extracts, I doubt it was the intention that this would either, but it looks like RAW it would. Extracts also work a bit differently than potions, since drawing them is a part of the action it takes to use them.

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

interesting ideas.

I looked over the Monk and Barbarian versions once, but thought they would not work with the feat, because they already offer the option of swift action drinking.

Another (not class dependant) feat:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/drunken-brawler-combat

Drunken Brawler:

Prerequisite(s): Endurance, worshiper of a good deity.

Benefit(s): When you drink a tankard of ale or strong alcohol, you take a –2 penalty on Reflex saving throws, but gain a number of temporary hit points equal to your character level, and gain a +2 alchemical bonus on Fortitude and Will saving throws. These bonuses last 1 hour or until the temporary hit points gained by this effect are lost, whichever occurs first. Regardless, the penalty lasts for a full hour.

As worded, it requires drinking a whole tankard, so you canˋt just walk over the Oktoberfest with a 1l Maß and gain temp. TP every round as soon as you get damage.
But with the advanced benefit (refilling as a swift action) you could do so. Pretty tanky. Nice buffs to Fort and Wil, but your Reflex throws will dump into the abyss (as will you, as soon as someone casts a pit :P)

[Alex Mack]

I was wondering about the Underhanded rogue talent. Does the ability to forbid opponents to remove blinded kick in at level or once you get the talent?

I'm a bit confused here.

[Alex Mack]

Here's a build skeleton for Dirty Trick Rogue based around Blade and Tankard style. The build is completly focused on achieving a high CMB as well as semi decent survivability. Which is why I only built it up to level 6 as you prolly want to move out of Rogue after 6th as it doesn't really offer enough afterwards and you need to further increase your CMB and saves.

Harvey Hardstein
CN Human Unchained Rogue (Archetypes?)
STR 10 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 7
Traits: Bred for War (Race) +1 to CMB and intimidate, Sound of Mind (Regional): +2 trait bonus versus mind-affecting effects

1 Divine Fighting Technique: Blade and Tankard Style
HB: TWF
2 Underhanded Trick
3 Quick Draw
3 Finesse Training: Light Mace
4 Weapon Focus: Light Mace
Debilitating Injury
5 Iron Will
Rogue's Edge: ???
6 Combat Trick: Greater Dirty Trick

I'm assuming that if you use your tankard for blinding Dirty trick will work of DEX so no agile maneuvers.

Quick Draw is intended to allow you to draw additional tankards. But going double tankard might make this unimportant.

Twist Away is prolly worth while even tough you'll hate to be staggered most of the time.

True strike is prolly a good buff for this build. Not sure which other level 1 potions would rock. I'm a big fan of reduce person for DEX builds but it actually sucks for a maneuver build.

Also wondering whether I can make magic weapon beersteins... should prolly ask Dwarves about that...

[Aelryinth]

Note you CAN do this with two tankards. A tankard is a light weapon (treat as a 'light mace'), so tankard and 'other light weapon' includes another tankard.

==Aelryinth

[Ellioti]

Good lvl 1 Potions: cure light wounds, protection from evil, shield

[Alex Mack]

The best is prolly Enlarge person but your likely gonna be DEX based for a blade and tankard build so that's unlikely.

[Manly-man teapot]

Alex Mack wrote:

I was wondering about the Underhanded rogue talent. Does the ability to forbid opponents to remove blinded kick in at level or once you get the talent?

I'm a bit confused here.

If the sticky blind was supposed to be a level 6 ability, it should have been written "At 6th level,... ), and if" and not "). If".

[Mr. Pedantic]

Ellioti wrote:

Good lvl 1 Potions: cure light wounds, protection from evil, shield

Shield is actually a Personal range spell and can thus not be made into a potion. Just to be clear.

[Lucy_Valentine]

Prof. Löwenzahn wrote:

This does not mean it nessecarily HAS to blind the foe, right? You could also - I donˋt know - toss some mud into their mouth to sicken them, or into their ears to deafen them? (this sounds pretty unrealistic I admit). Iˋm still searching for a way to entangle someone with tossing liquid but I guess thatˋs kind of impossible :(

Entangle would be a tankard full of glue, or something.

You could have a bunch of different tankards pre-loaded with stuff, and quick-draw them. I mean, if they're weapons? Though, planning doesn't seem to fit the flavour so well.

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Entangle would be a tankard full of glue, or something.

You could have a bunch of different tankards pre-loaded with stuff, and quick-draw them. I mean, if they're weapons? Though, planning doesn't seem to fit the flavour so well.

Thanks for the idea :) I was thinking about tossing water across an even surface, so they get "entangled" by not being able to move freely due to the slippery ground. But that would only work in some buildings and maybe on some rock, not in the classic dungeon or forest.

The fighting tankard I mentioned above is the way to go, if you don't want a dozen tankards or the quick draw feat. It is 6 different liquids. Should be ok for one fight, and if you go out of liquids, smash the empty tankard on someone's head.

[Arachnofiend]

This is primarily going to be good for characters using Precise Strike who don't care about using the tankard to hit things and just want the action economy boon.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Prof. Löwenzahn wrote:

This does not mean it nessecarily HAS to blind the foe, right? You could also - I donˋt know - toss some mud into their mouth to sicken them, or into their ears to deafen them? (this sounds pretty unrealistic I admit). Iˋm still searching for a way to entangle someone with tossing liquid but I guess thatˋs kind of impossible :(

Entangle would be a tankard full of glue, or something.

You could have a bunch of different tankards pre-loaded with stuff, and quick-draw them. I mean, if they're weapons? Though, planning doesn't seem to fit the flavour so well.

There's a special magic tankard in the same book that this feat came in that lets you load up with multiple different liquids at once. Can't recall the name offhand, though.

[Alex Mack]

I've been tinkering with the above Rogue build. In theory the combination of Blade and Tankard and the Underhanded Rogue Talent is super strong, but it probably doesn't work as a straight Rogue build as it's hard to get CMB to a level where you can consistently land dirty trick.
Part of the problem is that you can't enchant your tankard and thus don't get any weapon enhancement bonuses to CMB. At level 6 the best I could do was a CMB of +16. To me that seems a bit low to reliably blind opponents and thus I'm planning to only take Rogue to level 4 and then take some martial classes and supplement SA progression with accomplished Sneak Attacker.

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

Alex Mack wrote:

Part of the problem is that you can't enchant your tankard and thus don't get any weapon enhancement bonuses to CMB. At level 6 the best I could do was a CMB of +16. To me that seems a bit low to reliably blind opponents and thus I'm planning to only take Rogue to level 4 and then take some martial classes and supplement SA progression with accomplished Sneak Attacker.

"You can wield a tankard (or mug) as a weapon, treating it in all ways as a light mace appropriate for your size"

You basically have a light mace in your hand from which you can drink. You can enchant a light mace, so you can enchant that tankard.

I did not know accomlished sneak attacker until now, thank you :)

+16 at Level 6 is ok I guess, but maybe we can boost it more.
If I sum up my ideas:

4 from BAB, 5 from STR/DEX, 2 from improved dirty trick, 2 from gauntlets of the skilled maneuver, 2 from thorny ioun Stone with wayfinder, 2 from the Heirloom Weapon (tankard) trait, 1 from weapon focus (or the rogue Talent equivalent)= +18
Plus enchantment bonuses, but it's getting too expensive for a Level 6 character I think.

Anything I oversaw that can add to it further?

[TGMaxMaxer]

You can be a Half-Orc skulking slayer, and then add your sneak attack dice to the Dirty-Trick maneuver. Also gets you the ability to Dirty Trick anytime you could make a sneak attack.

There is a Feat that adds your sneak attack dice to your CMB for a maneuver in the Advanced class guide. I see nothing that says that class feature and the feat wouldn't stack, so that would get you double your sneak attack dice to the maneuver.

[Greg.Everham]

Skulking Slayer is a lovely dip if you just want to get a freebie application of Dirty Tricks. If you were to really play this out hilariously, you could drink a Potion of Invisibility form your tankard, disappear, and on the next turn full-attack someone. First attack, you trade SA dice for a dirty trick to blind. Each hit after that is now a sneak attack, which you can continue to trade out.

[Alex Mack]

Prof. Löwenzahn wrote:

"You can wield a tankard (or mug) as a weapon, treating it in all ways as a light mace appropriate for your size"

You basically have a light mace in your hand from which you can drink. You can enchant a light mace, so you can enchant that tankard.

I did not know accomlished sneak attacker until now, thank you :)

+16 at Level 6 is ok I guess, but maybe we can boost it more.
If I sum up my ideas:

4 from BAB, 5 from STR/DEX, 2 from improved dirty trick, 2 from gauntlets of the skilled maneuver, 2 from thorny ioun Stone with wayfinder, 2 from the Heirloom Weapon (tankard) trait, 1 from weapon focus (or the rogue Talent equivalent)= +18
Plus enchantment bonuses, but it's getting too expensive for a Level 6 character I think.

Anything I oversaw that can add to it further?

You can't enchant it cause it's not masterwork. Anyways by RAW it's only a mace if you wield it and that's actually a big difference. So no enhancement bonuses (personally I'm not gonna try that in PFS) the same applies to Heirloom weapon as a tankard is not a weapon and thus technically it is not eligible for the trait. Likewise Thorny Ioun Stone doesn't look like it allows Dirty Trick.

My math was slightly different btw.
+4 BAB, +6 ability score, +2 Improved, +2 Greater, +1 WF, +1 Trait (Bred for war)

I guess the gauntlets are affordable by then at 4k so that actually pushes the Rogue to +18.

Neither Surprise Maneuver nor Skulking Slayer are much help here as they both only apply hen you could normally deal sneak attack damage and as the main point of spilling beer in someones face is to get SA going.

I learned yesterday that Slayers can pick underhanded trick as well so a slayer build that looks very similar to the rogue idea above (but uses Str instead of DEX) can manage a better CMB at level 6:

+6 BAB, +5 ability score, +2 Improved, +2 Greater, +1 WF, +1 Trait (Bred for war), +2 gauntlets, (+2 Studied Target)

19 (or 21) so not really much better as studied target might be off limits...

A rogue 4 Urban Bloodrager 1 Snakebite Stiker 1 can manage

+5 BAB, +8 ability score, +2 Improved, +1 WF, +1 Trait (Bred for war), +2 gauntlets

+19 but once it qualifies for greater dirty trick it pulls ahead considerably.

Lore Warden is also an option but seems like Rogue 6 is prolly the way to go as that's the fastest way to acquire greater dirty trick. Afterwards you should prolly continue with full BAB classes which either boost maneuvers or ability modifiers.