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Hello all,
I have just started playing my first Kineticist and wanted to discuss my build plan and thoughts on the class/character. I am always open to advice so while i am fairly set on the character's growth i still welcome your ideas on what may function better. I am playing in Iron Gods to explain some of the skill, trait and feat choices but please, no spoilers for the campaign.
My starting point for all of this is Human, NG, No alternate racial traits. I was allowed three background traits, one had to be campaign specific, and one drawback.
Here is my overall plan:
Traits: Reactionary, Builder's Apprentice (+3 Kn: Engineering), Local Ties (+1 Disable Device and its a class skill and i count as a technologist for it)
Drawback: Family Ties
I plan to use FCB on HP at level 1 and then on the human bonus for the next 18 levels.
Stat line of: STR 10 DEX 16 CON 18 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 10
Level 1: Talent - Extended Range, Feat - Tribal Scars (Raptor Following) Bonus Feat - Point Blank Shot
Level 2: Talent - Air Shroud
Level 3: Talent - Gusting infusion, Feat - Precise Shot
Level 4: Talent - Air Cusion
Level 5: Talent - Pushing infusion, Feat - Technologist (or Weapon Focus, depending on how the campaign goes)
Level 6: Talent - Wings of Air
Level 7 Expanded Element - Aether, Feat - EWT (Kinetic Healer or Telekinetic Haul), Bonus Feat - EWT (Kinetic Finesse)
Level 8: Talent - Expanded Defense
Level 9: Talent - Extreme Range/Torrent/Bowling (depending on how the campaign progresses), Feat - Either the one skipped at 5 or Toughness
Level 10: Talent - Probably Foe Throw, maybe Greater Air Shroud
I managed to snag Disable Device as a class skill and while i Kn: Engineering isnt class i still have a decent bonus to it thanks to a trait. They havent helped out yet but i expect to get a lot of mileage out of them over the course of the game.
Overall i plan on keeping up with Acrobatics (until level 6 and fly opens up) Disable Device, Kn: Engineering, Perception and Stealth.
I am thinking some about protective gear but my main focus is stat boosters and eventually a Diadem. Hopefully the air defense talent will provide my main defense to be enforces by perma-flight at level 6 and a regenerative force field at level 8.
So far i have noticed abysmal accuracy problems with the character. We have an alchemist and a cleric in the group but there havent been any buffs used yet. I may be able to rely on extracts of Reduce Person in future games and the extra +2 to hit would be a very nice addition. Have i fallen into any classic pitfalls or blunders here? I know i will be trailing in damage output with only Aethercally boosted Air Blasts but is there anything else i should be on the look out for?
Would you be facing robots for this campaign? Wouldn't electric blast be useful?
You have four stats of varying usefulness consider dumping Cha and taking penalties in two of the other three and get that Dex to 18. Hitting is the single largest consideration for a kineticist
Protoman wrote: Would you be facing robots for this campaign? Wouldn't electric blast be useful? I initially was planning on soloing Air and starting with electric blast. I decided that might be a bit too meta-gaming though and preferred the general usefulness of a physical blast over an elemental one. aside from which, i cant say for certain how much robots will take over as primary antagonists. i assume there will be a lot but enough to justify only doing electric damage for the first 6 levels? tough call.
Ryzoken wrote: You have four stats of varying usefulness consider dumping Cha and taking penalties in two of the other three and get that Dex to 18. Hitting is the single largest consideration for a kineticist Done is done in this instance as i have already taken the character to the GM and played a session. i have an aversion to dumping stats anyways. I wanted too many skills to justify a drop in INT, i have no will as is and would never take a penalty to it for any character unless i was going for a buffoon trope, STR can be crippling but i maybe should have tried to snag a point or two from it to boost WIS. CHA is fair game. Man, that stat... weirdest one to work with. But even still, i just dont like dumping stats. I fully acknowledge i am paying dearly for that already. As i mentioned elsewhere on the forums, i have made nine attack rolls with the character and only scored one hit so far.
I'd probably swap Dex and Con rather than dumping a bunch of stats for another 18. Dex 18, con 16 is better for physical blasts, while your stat layout is better for energy ones.
I would probably dump Cha and maybe some Str for more Wis (Will Saves are your weak spot) and maybe Int (for more skills), though.
EDIT: If you can't change stats, take electricity at 7th rather than expanding into aether. Air's a perfectly fine single element, and as noted, electricity will be good. It'll solve your accuracy woes, too...though you might want to consider Spell Penetration as aFeat in that case.
Deadmanwalking wrote: I'd probably swap Dex and Con rather than dumping a bunch of stats for another 18. Dex 18, con 16is better for physical blasts, while your stat layout is better for energy ones.
I would probably dump Cha and maybe some Str for more Wis (Will Saves are your weak spot) and maybe Int (for more skills), though.
If i could go back and do it again i would be tempted to go for DEX 18, CON 16 and WIS of at least 12 at the expense of probably CHA. But stats for this one at least are already set. Honestly for the campaign in general i probably would have been better optimized if i went Telekineticist first and expanded into Air at 7. I could have had both Disable Device and Kn: Engineering as class skills and then done the higher DEX.
I think the next time i roll up a Kineticist i will try something like that. Maybe with a Melee focus instead of range. I might also be heavily influenced by my current experience of close quarters fighting, we'll see if i feel the same after i get a few more games in.
Deadmanwalking wrote: I'd probably swap Dex and Con rather than dumping a bunch of stats for another 18. Dex 18, con 16 is better for physical blasts, while your stat layout is better for energy ones.
I would probably dump Cha and maybe some Str for more Wis (Will Saves are your weak spot) and maybe Int (for more skills), though.
EDIT: If you can't change stats, take electricity at 7th rather than expanding into aether. Air's a perfectly fine single element, and as noted, electricity will be good. It'll solve your accuracy woes, too...though you might want to consider Spell Penetration as aFeat in that case.
That is certainly an option. I like some of the utility that Aether Brings but the original plan had things like a legit composite blast, touch attacks and of course, Magnetize. I will stick with this character but if accuracy doesnt improve then, oh yeah, i will be zapping and magnetizing everything in this campaign.
Looking over my build plan, i dont actually get much out of Aether. since everything is selected as if 4 levels lower i cant get any of the really gucci options until the end of the campaign anyways. The big deal is really Force Ward and Foe Throw.. one is fun and the other may not be an actual Big Deal since Enveloping Winds and flight will negate a lot of attacks anyways.
Looking at the character again, if i went mono element with it...
Level 1: Talent - Extended Range, Feat - Tribal Scars (Raptor Following) Bonus Feat - Point Blank Shot
Level 2: Talent - Air Shroud
Level 3: Talent - Gusting infusion, Feat - Precise Shot
Level 4: Talent - Air Cusion
Level 5: Talent - Pushing infusion, Feat - Technologist
Level 6: Talent - Wings of Air
Level 7 Expanded Element - Air - Magnetic Infusion, Feat - Weapon Focus, Bonus Feat - EWT (Air's Reach)
Level 8: Talent - Celerity
Level 9: Talent - Extreme Range/Torrent/Bowling (depending on how the campaign progresses), Feat - Toughness
Level 10: Talent - Greater Air Shroud
I lose out on Force Ward which seems super fun and eventually Foe Throw but gaining a full Composite Blast is more likely to be useful more often. And Magnetize. Magnetize is so very tempting as a debuff. Good talk Forum, feeling good about this :)
As for accuracy, a 16 dex really should be good enough. Are you taking appropriate burn to have elemental overflow active, and then applying the size bonus to dexterity and constitution? @6th level this comes out to +3 attack and +5 damage.
I second keeping air - lets you choose between an empowered lightning touch attack (with a burn to spare for abilities) or a composite blast - its nice to be able to switch it up for hard to hit vs easy to hit enemies.
Bracers of Falcon’s Aim is a fairly cheap (2000gp) way to get +1 to hit (and +3 to perception).
My only feat/ability suggestion: work in Kinetic Blade at some point. It may not seem important given that air is a flying sniper, but man it sucks if something surprises you and you don't have the blade - using the base blast next to something is 2 attacks of opportunity!
Thaago wrote: As for accuracy, a 16 dex really should be good enough. Are you taking appropriate burn to have elemental overflow active, and then applying the size bonus to dexterity and constitution? @6th level this comes out to +3 attack and +5 damage.
I second keeping air - lets you choose between an empowered lightning touch attack (with a burn to spare for abilities) or a composite blast - its nice to be able to switch it up for hard to hit vs easy to hit enemies.
Bracers of Falcon’s Aim is a fairly cheap (2000gp) way to get +1 to hit (and +3 to perception).
My only feat/ability suggestion: work in Kinetic Blade at some point. It may not seem important given that air is a flying sniper, but man it sucks if something surprises you and you don't have the blade - using the base blast next to something is 2 attacks of opportunity!
Right now the character is only level one so EO isnt an option yet. I believe accuracy will really catch up later on but for the first 5ish games, until i get to level 3, hitting will be rough. If i could do it all again i would swap DEX and CON and take gusting instead of extended range.
I will need to check with GM about the bracers, i know many GMs dont like them for their incredibly low price.
Kinetic Blade is always a temptation but it comes with its own feat tax as well. Maybe at level 5 or 7 i could work in weapon finesse and then use the human FCB to pick up blade at 7 as well. Its a long wait for a melee option but if i used the level 9 talent for whip then i could potentially be flying just out of an enemies reach and dropping 2-3 blast hits with the whip each round.
That is a fun idea right there, thanks for it Thaago :)
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Torbyne wrote: Looking at the character again, if i went mono element with it...
Level 1: Talent - Extended Range, Feat - Tribal Scars (Raptor Following) Bonus Feat - Point Blank Shot
Level 2: Talent - Air Shroud
Level 3: Talent - Gusting infusion, Feat - Precise Shot
Level 4: Talent - Air Cusion
Level 5: Talent - Pushing infusion, Feat - Technologist
Level 6: Talent - Wings of Air
Level 7 Expanded Element - Air - Magnetic Infusion, Feat - Weapon Focus, Bonus Feat - EWT (Air's Reach)
Level 8: Talent - Celerity
Level 9: Talent - Extreme Range/Torrent/Bowling (depending on how the campaign progresses), Feat - Toughness
Level 10: Talent - Greater Air Shroud
I have refined the build a little further with the idea of being a mono-element switch hitter
1 – Extended Range / Tribal Scars, PBS
2 – Air Shroud
3 – Gusting Infusion / Precise Shot
4 – Air Cushion
5 – Kinetic Blade / Weapon Finesse
6 – Wings Of Air
7 – Kinetic Whip / Weapon Focus / FCB: Air's Reach
8 - Celerity
9 – Magnetic Infusion / Toughness
10 – Kinetic Form
11 – Chain / Combat Reflexes
12 - Suffocate
This will let me start any fight with a ranged blast and then 5' back to keep blasting while the Barbarian and Cleric hold the front. At level five i could go straight from ranged striking to front lining with greater wealth by level devoted to AC. At six i can in any instance that supports it be a relatively safe flying turret whereas at seven i have exceptional mobility and the option to swing the whip outside and above melee opponents. the next big change up is level 10 when Kinetic Form doubles the whip's reach and likely becomes my standard attack routine.
The downsides to this plan that i see are a lack of useful infusions aside from blade and whip. That means lots of burn freed up to Empower blasts or drop haste but few other options. Air just doesn't have that many infusions that stand out to me. Magnetize is basically the only other option i am seeing.
It's even worse for aero's who start with Electric Blast since at least Air Blast lets you pick between Pushing and Gusting. Electric only gets Thundering and Draining (you'll have both basic blasts if you double on aero up by the time Chain & Magnetic come online).
mikkelibob wrote: It's even worse for aero's who start with Electric Blast since at least Air Blast lets you pick between Pushing and Gusting. Electric only gets Thundering and Draining (you'll have both basic blasts if you double on aero up by the time Chain & Magnetic come online). True enough. I have been messing around with kineticist builds for a while now and I keep coming back to the notion that element choice is almost the only real choice in making a character out of all the available first party material. Going mono air basically dictates what choices will be made since the good options are so good, locked to their own level brackets and so few. I ended up planing on a switch hitter because there isn't anything else to do with a lot of those low level talent slots. Especially the infusions.
Totally agree. I'm making an aero and trying to decide between a halfling with Childlike and a goblin with Roll With It. In either case I'm pushing back Precise Shot until 5th. So I figure maybe I should go with Electric for the ranged touch attack accuracy. But ugh, I may just leave my 5th level infusion empty as a protest.
need more lvl 2 infusions. Seems like a whole menu of mild debuff riders with a save would be a perfect fit. I guess that kind of describes Thundering, but I'd rather have dazzled or sickened. Deafened is sort of the lamest of the dirty trick options.
mikkelibob wrote: Totally agree. I'm making an aero and trying to decide between a halfling with Childlike and a goblin with Roll With It. In either case I'm pushing back Precise Shot until 5th. So I figure maybe I should go with Electric for the ranged touch attack accuracy. But ugh, I may just leave my 5th level infusion empty as a protest.
need more lvl 2 infusions. Seems like a whole menu of mild debuff riders with a save would be a perfect fit. I guess that kind of describes Thundering, but I'd rather have dazzled or sickened. Deafened is sort of the lamest of the dirty trick options.
Could you post a build plan for your concept? i would assume there are only a few talents different between us due to you starting with eletric blast. I would point out though that at low levels i am not finding many enemies with that much swing between regular and touch AC. though with my abysmal accuracy even that extra 1-2 points would be nice to have...
In general the class needs new talents for each element at almost all levels, keep in mind that it is entirely possible to have a character with completely empty talent levels. heck, i have no level 2 infusions and can only pick up a level 9 talent if i make it to the Eye of Abendengo and the gain from that is... flavor mostly? at that level an extra miss chance against non magical attacks is kind of a waste.
I get there was a massive space constraint for the class and Mark had to fight (and likely kill several competing authors in some sort of Thunder Dome-esque arena. Didnt Gotham do something like this in an episode, is Paizo the inspiration for that one?) to get in all the talents that he did. But we are where we are and where we are is some elements (effectively archetypes unto themselves since you cant take talents from outside elements) have blank spell levels they can only spend on lower level spells.
Torbyne wrote: True enough. I have been messing around with kineticist builds for a while now and I keep coming back to the notion that element choice is almost the only real choice in making a character out of all the available first party material. Going mono air basically dictates what choices will be made since the good options are so good, locked to their own level brackets and so few. I ended up planing on a switch hitter because there isn't anything else to do with a lot of those low level talent slots. Especially the infusions. Looking at your build, as you yourself stated, there's not a ton of room for deviation. Most elements have a 'set list' at the moment, which is just a shame.
Only advice I can give is go TK Haul over healer, it'll most likely serve you better in the long run, as I'm not a fan of kineticists as healers. To me, K Healer is something that's 'just in case' while TK Haul will probably serve you better in the long run. You're probably going to be stuck with a pretty generic build until some new decent first party content comes out, although I'm not sure when that'll be. Here's hoping it's soon.
N. Jolly wrote: Torbyne wrote: True enough. I have been messing around with kineticist builds for a while now and I keep coming back to the notion that element choice is almost the only real choice in making a character out of all the available first party material. Going mono air basically dictates what choices will be made since the good options are so good, locked to their own level brackets and so few. I ended up planing on a switch hitter because there isn't anything else to do with a lot of those low level talent slots. Especially the infusions. Looking at your build, as you yourself stated, there's not a ton of room for deviation. Most elements have a 'set list' at the moment, which is just a shame.
Only advice I can give is go TK Haul over healer, it'll most likely serve you better in the long run, as I'm not a fan of kineticists as healers. To me, K Healer is something that's 'just in case' while TK Haul will probably serve you better in the long run. You're probably going to be stuck with a pretty generic build until some new decent first party content comes out, although I'm not sure when that'll be. Here's hoping it's soon. Thats a good point. The party already has an Alchemist and a Cleric so i can only imagine how bad things would have to be for Kinetic Healer to come up. But then again i am fairly sold on going mono-air right now too since it lets me switch hit, get a real composite and the flexibility of a physical and energy blast.
Honetsly i think i built almost the same character back during the playtest too. i might dig through my old posts to compare them but yeah, until more gets published there is a significant limit on choices.
Oddly enough, since there seems to be so much hesitation on things that increase kineticist damage it may be that future enfusions open up a lot more buff/debuff options which could really help define the Kineticist niche of damaging debuffs.
Torbyne wrote: Could you post a build plan for your concept? i would assume there are only a few talents different between us due to you starting with eletric blast. I would point out though that at low levels i am not finding many enemies with that much swing between regular and touch AC. though with my abysmal accuracy even that extra 1-2 points would be nice to have... Sure, just a sketch at this point. The actual character is starting at 1st level, and thusfar unplayed. Planned only through about 7 or so...
Blasts:
1. Electric
7. Thunderstorm Blast
7. Air Blast
Infusion:
1. Kinetic Blade [1] - burn 1
3. Extended Range [1] - burn 0
5. Thundering Infusion [1] = burn 0
9. Magnetic Infusion [3] - burn 2 OR Torrent [3] - burn 2
Utility:
1. Basic Aerokinesis
2. Defense - Air Shroud
2. Air’s Reach [1]
4. Air Cushion [1] - burn 0
6. Wings of Air [3] - burn 0
7. Expanded Element: Celerity
Feats:
1. (1) Childlike
3. (3) Point Blank Shot
3. (5) Precise Shot
7. (7) Deadly Aim
Traits:
the wealth one to start with a Cap of Human Guise.
Then maybe Helpful (halfling)? Or initiative or will saves.
I figure I'd take Kinetic Blade prior to Extended Range on the theory that Aeros can take Air's Reach at 2nd and therefore you really just have a few encounters where the range is so short. I'd rather have 60' range and the melee option for 2nd level then have to wait until 3rd for a melee option. Honestly, not a huge difference. Funny thing: prior to Metakinesis empower at 5th, Overwhelming Soul might be a better match for this character. A higher charisma helps this concepts (bluff & disguse) more. But once you get empower, I just see the CON mod of burn as the number of times I can drop an empowered blast. And that's far better than the 1x Overwhelming Soul effectively can empower.
One weird thing is that d20pfsrd refers to "Lightning Blast" with respect to errata related to Torrent. Actually, it refers to a FAQ here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1h5#v5748eaic9tpo
But there is no such thing as "Lightning Blast." It should be "Electric Blast." I'm surely not the first person to flag that. Seifter?
mikkelibob wrote: Torbyne wrote: Could you post a build plan for your concept? i would assume there are only a few talents different between us due to you starting with eletric blast. I would point out though that at low levels i am not finding many enemies with that much swing between regular and touch AC. though with my abysmal accuracy even that extra 1-2 points would be nice to have... Sure, just a sketch at this point. The actual character is starting at 1st level, and thusfar unplayed. Planned only through about 7 or so...
Blasts:
1. Electric
7. Thunderstorm Blast
7. Air Blast
Infusion:
1. Kinetic Blade [1] - burn 1
3. Extended Range [1] - burn 0
5. Thundering Infusion [1] = burn 0
9. Magnetic Infusion [3] - burn 2 OR Torrent [3] - burn 2
Utility:
1. Basic Aerokinesis
2. Defense - Air Shroud
2. Air’s Reach [1]
4. Air Cushion [1] - burn 0
6. Wings of Air [3] - burn 0
7. Expanded Element: Celerity
Feats:
1. (1) Childlike
3. (3) Point Blank Shot
3. (5) Precise Shot
7. (7) Deadly Aim
Traits:
the wealth one to start with a Cap of Human Guise.
Then maybe Helpful (halfling)? Or initiative or will saves.
I figure I'd take Kinetic Blade prior to Extended Range on the theory that Aeros can take Air's Reach at 2nd and therefore you really just have a few encounters where the range is so short. I'd rather have 60' range and the melee option for 2nd level then have to wait until 3rd for a melee option. Honestly, not a huge difference. Funny thing: prior to Metakinesis empower at 5th, Overwhelming Soul might be a better match for this character. A higher charisma helps this concepts (bluff & disguse) more. But once you get empower, I just see the CON mod of burn as the number of times I can drop an empowered blast. And that's far better than the 1x Overwhelming Soul effectively can empower.
One weird thing is that d20pfsrd refers to "Lightning Blast" with respect to errata related to Torrent. Actually, it refers to a FAQ here:... Now, now, i am sure Mr. Seifter is very busy writting up new talents and feats, no need to distract him with things we all know already :P
Nice build you've got there though i would ask how you land hits with Kinetic Blade without having Weapon Finesse? And i am not sure i would select Deadly Aim even for a physical blast but then again i think we have firmly established that i have an accuracy phobia.
I agree with Torbyne. Deadly aim isn't worth it for a kineticist since its a single big hit class and not a volley class like archers who get the most benefit from it. Also, Weapon Finesse is practically a requirement if you want to effectively use kinetic blade.
That makes sense. I could swap Deadly Aim for Weapon Focus at 7th. Re blade without finesse: I would like to pick up weapon finesse, but thems the breaks when you take a flavor feat without race or class or bonus feats. Plus kinetic blade with electric blast is still a touch attack. Not really focused on switch hitting, just dont have anything better to do.
I got to play the Kineticist again last night and made it to level 2. Things went much better over all with 7 attack rolls and 3 hits. Not too bad since i was blinded for part of that and firing into melee without Precise Shot on another of them. Some random thoughts about the class and character:
Extended Range was kind of a wasted talent. the longest stretch in the game so far has been under 70' so a move and a regular attack would have worked just as well. i could have been gusting or pushing instead and maybe accomplished a little more.
Damage has been better than i expected after all the negativity i have read on the class. I am rolling with 1D6+6 which has been a noticeable contribution in every fight. I am looking forward to level 3 with that extra D6 and static damage boosters jumping up 3 points. Really though, 2D6+9 is just fine for melee damage at level 3. For a ranged character it is down right awesome.
Hoping that the BAB increase actually affects accuracy and isnt out scaled by enemies AC. But level 3 will bring an extra +2 to hit and shouldn't be too far off.
Gear wise i am looking forward to a DEX belt and Cracked Pale Green Prism stone to boost accuracy once real money starts showing up.
I also need to choose between Kinetic Blade and Weapon Finesse as my level 3 talent/feat or Gusting Infusion and Precise Shot. With Enveloping Winds unlocked now i am tempted to try dedicated range a little longer but my experiences thus far have had me in melee in just about every fight. Twice with no room to 5' out of combat either. As of right now i am leaning toward KB/WF for level 3.
Extended range becomes desirable when you get empower metakinesis. When that happens, you suddenly no longer want to move (so as to gather power), making 120 feet of range a godsend.
Take Precise Shot at 3, leave weapon finesse til level 5 or 7.
Ryzoken wrote: Extended range becomes desirable when you get empower metakinesis. When that happens, you suddenly no longer want to move (so as to gather power), making 120 feet of range a godsend.
Take Precise Shot at 3, leave weapon finesse til level 5 or 7.
Thank you, i was feeling that was the way to go but couldn't describe any decent reason why :)
When I initially started my kineticist I had 0 intention of getting KBlade and Weapon Finesse. But by the time I hit level 5 (Pres. shot, PBS, and weapon focus were my first pick ups as a human) I was starting to feel how being able to blast in melee was nice. It was here where I picked up weapon finesse and traded my pushing infusion for KBlade.
"Infusion (Su) wrote: At 5th, 11th, and 17th levels, a kineticist can replace one of her infusions with another infusion of the same effective spell level or lower. She can't replace an infusion that she used to qualify for another of her wild talents. I would think that once you get air's reach, if you really want to, you can trade extended range or gusting for KBlade. But be careful because some later infusions require ext. range like snake.
Last week the game was called off but i got to take the character out again last night.
For the first time i actually didnt enjoy playing the class. It was weird, i have been excited for the chance to play a Kineticist every since the playtest but now after only three sessions in i just felt disapointed with it. I think the session and dice (pulled a lot of 9's on the die which was just below target ACs) were both somewhat against me in it though.
Playing through Iron Gods still, Local Ties gave me Disable Device as a class skill and the ability to use DD as if i had the technologist feat but i was unable to crack open any tech doors with anything less than taking 20. That was time consuming and annoying. GM's interpetation is even if i can make the checks on the door, without technologist and ranks in KN: engineering the character is still fumbling blindly at tasks until something works. Not sure what value DD has as it stands now.
Other skill checks didnt really come up during play. Some perception rolls but everything ended up getting the drop on the party no matter what we rolled. An ambush in a dark cave really put some hurt on the group too. It was the first time where Extended Range could have come into play but we didnt have line of sight out past 60' and enemies kept charging in at us from the darkness meaning we went straight to melee.
For attack rolls i landed two hits and missed with seven blasts. three of those misses though where shooting in melee without Precise Shot. Still, a 22% accuracy rating feels like a lot of wasted time at the table. Career wise my character is standing at 30% accuracy for blasting. Even if i ignore shots missed against enemies in melee career accuracy only rises to 40%. To the character's credit anything that lands does decent damage (1D6+6 at level 2 isnt so bad).
We made poor progress in the campaign and had to retreat due to HP loss and no wand of CLW or the like to regroup. Most of the party's wealth is going into buying a wand now which has left individual gold low.
Level 3 is looking a long way off but may be the biggest single level pay off in the game with that new feat, BAB boost and Elemental Overflow finally coming online.
I am still unsure if i will go with Kinetic Blade and Weapon Finesse or take Precise Shot and Pushing Infusion. The GM is pushing hard for someone to pick up the technologist feat but that feels like asking "do you want to be able to compete at skill checks or attack rolls because you can only do one."
If i had a do over? Swap DEX and CON for an 18 and 16 respectively, take the electric blast for touch attacks and avoid any level 1 flavor feats in favor of dedicated PBS/Precise Shot or an out the gate melee build.
Excellent feedback. I'm super interested in the decision between the energy and physical attack. On paper the increased damage and options with a physical blast seem convincing, but in practice hitting every round may be more useful and more fun.
mikkelibob wrote: Excellent feedback. I'm super interested in the decision between the energy and physical attack. On paper the increased damage and options with a physical blast seem convincing, but in practice hitting every round may be more useful and more fun. I was weary of accuracy problems from the start with this character but figured they would balance out quickly with leveling and gear. Level three looks to be another two sessions away though and the enjoyment really isn't there with all these misses. Be small and have an 18 DEX to start, go touch if you are really concerned. I have a +5 to hit for most blasts and feel it's not enough to contribute.
You must be getting some really unlucky attack rolls. When my aether kinny was levels 1/2 she probably had about an ~60-70% accuracy with her physical blast. On second thought, actually I guess that sounds about right with you not having PBS. That -4 can really hurt if you're shooting into melee. Try to avoid that and you'll do much better.
To be fair it also sounds like your GM is rail roading you guys into a certain style of play. I mean, requiring natural 20s on every lock and every perception check fails regardless of rolls? Makes you wonder what the point of skills are.
Consider talking the party into role-playing that all of you have low self esteem when it comes to spotting traps or ambushes, because no matter how hard you train, you're never good enough.
Texas Snyper, i am trying to account for what precise shot would have done, there are five shots i missed that it could have made a difference in but even discounting those my hit rate would be less than 50%.
I think i will take Precise Shot at the next level just so i can keep using Point Blank Shot for the hit bonus, the last three sessions have left a mark on me... need all the accuracy i can get. I might go for Weapon Focus at five if this keeps up and push Technologist off to seven. I doubt the group as a whole would go that long without it though.
Tels, i was a little taken aback at first but i see his point of view at least. The group only had light/darkvision to 60' and enemies would make 60' charges from just outside our vision. It felt a little cheap but not enough to call him out on. I was more upset about his ruling on how Local Ties counting as technologist doesnt seem to do anything. again, i understand his point of view that without technologist affecting Knowledge Engineering then a character wouldnt have the understanding of how tech devices work but then it completely invalidates technologist applying to disable device. I should talk to him before the next game and ask if he was applying any penalties against me for that. i would be surprised if a published AP was putting DC 25+ locks on plot doors for level 1-2 parties. My skill mod for Disable Device is actually a +9 so the DC could have even been higher than that as he made us feel as though we only got through the doors to continue any progress in the plot.
Actually he was debating putting everyone's perceptions checks at a -2 at one point due to my enveloping winds talents kicking up sand in the cave we were in.
I should probably ask him some questions about this stuff but its also disconnected from my primary misgivings with the game so far and i dont want to come off as more upset than i am.
Except he's wrong on the perception. Perception is more than just visual, same for stealth. It's auditory and olfactory senses too. You may not have seen anything, but you may have heard something which warns you that there is something 'out there' which would negate flat-footed/surprise round.
I would not get along with your GM, I'd call him on his BS too much. I mean, if the guy is going to consider penalties because of your ability, God forbid anyone use wind wall or fireball.
Tels wrote: Except he's wrong on the perception. Perception is more than just visual, same for stealth. It's auditory and olfactory senses too. You may not have seen anything, but you may have heard something which warns you that there is something 'out there' which would negate flat-footed/surprise round.
I would not get along with your GM, I'd call him on his BS too much. I mean, if the guy is going to consider penalties because of your ability, God forbid anyone use wind wall or fireball.
I've gamed with him for several months before he took over as GM and these are really the first things i've seen from him that i disagree with. Maybe he was having an off night. either way i will probably send him an email before the next session about some of this.
Played again last night, still feeling conflicted over the class. Really regretting taking a feat other than Precise Shot at level one. If i can offer piece of advice to other Kineticist players it is this, "The class will not work without Precise Shot or Kinetic Blade online from level 1."
I took more detailed notes this time around regarding accuracy problems, the end result is 13 attacks made during the session, 4 of which landed. That is a whopping %30 hit rate. Six of those attacks were made with the -4 penalty for shooting into Melee but shockingly only one of the affected attacks would have landed if i had Precise Shot.
As for hits i rolled natural results of: 15, 16, 19 and 20 on the die. Not surprising those were all hits considering the high initial result.
Misses had a few surprises: 6, 9, 15(!), 3, 7, 2, 13(!), 17 (!) and 14(!)
the "!" next to some are numbers that surprised me considering how well the roll came out.
Outside of combat things have gone a little better, after our last session we were half dead and retreated back to town. Once there we were finally able to get our hands on a wand of Cure Light Wounds and a merchant taught us how to use the E-pick we found. The GM let me in on a secret penalty i was taking to Disable Device checks without the pick though i still feel results of 25+ even with the penalty should have been enough for simple locks. In any event we were at least able to progress past some locked doors this time around. As a group we had poor performances against a weird tentacle monster that dropped our barbarian and we barely managed to drop it before the barbarian was eaten.
We left off in the middle of a second encounter that has seen our alchemist unable to overcome DR or energy resist, the Cleric cant beat DR, the barbarian was dropped but has been brought back up to around 6 HP and enlarged for an encore and my kineticist is sitting 5' from the BBEG in the disabled condition. We have managed two hits on the BBEG that leaked through DR so far. So i may not have to worry about the class too much longer at least.
Overall... i still love the idea of the class. But man, oh man, would i have made different choices if i could do it over again... PBS and PS at level 1, 18 DEX and 16 CON. Maybe a touch blast instead of physical. And carry some acid flasks and a crossbow as back ups.
I have decided to take PS instead of weapon finesse if i somehow survive to level 3, entirely due to the extra +1 to hit i get from PBS. Accuracy problems dude, this character is plagued by them.
Sorry to hear your bad luck with rolls. The nice thing is that the class fixes its own accuracy problems pretty well once you get a few levels once elemental overflow comes online and starts to stack up. My level 8 aether/lightning kinny currently has a +16 to hit. 6 BAB, +2 EO, +1 weapon focus, +1 bracers of falcon aim, +5 Dex, +1 PBS. Elemental Overflow basically gives you full BAB accuracy.
Talk with your GM and see if he is willing to combine PBS and Precise Shot into being the same feat. This happens with some people who do the house rule "fixes" like making power attack a combat option instead of a feat.
Loving the actual play reports. My group almost always starts from 1st level, and that 1st to 3rd level period is often ignore in player advice and guides. Too many builds are unpleasant grinds at low level.
Maybe its over correction, but I've totally changed my starting progression to a human with PBS and Precise Shot, and a ranged touch blast (Electric). Even if it means mathematically less DPR, I just prefer to feel like I'm contributing each round.
Texas Snyper, i am going to hold out with the character. I'll either die and roll up something new next session or pull through and make level 3 where it should finally start balancing out.
Mikkelibob, Yeah, too many times i get lured into a concept with "any by level 4 (or 5 or 6...) it all comes online and will be awesome!" But this character has been beating me over the head with how god awful its been up to this point.
Going back over my record, if i had started with Point Blank Shot my career hit rate would still be under 50%. That is flat out unsat. You get one hit per round and are more likely to miss with it.
I am not sure how much better that would be with a touch attack but i feel as though the lower AC would be a godsend and the perhaps two enemies that would resit or be immune to my blasts wouldnt be nearly as frustrating as my current situation. energy blast with a back up crossbow ftw.
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Torbyne wrote: Texas Snyper, i am going to hold out with the character. I'll either die and roll up something new next session or pull through and make level 3 where it should finally start balancing out. Does your DM use the retraining rules from ultimate campaign? That might be the easiest way to implement the changes you're thinking of without having to struggle through a few more levels of pain.
Porridge wrote: Torbyne wrote: Texas Snyper, i am going to hold out with the character. I'll either die and roll up something new next session or pull through and make level 3 where it should finally start balancing out. Does your DM use the retraining rules from ultimate campaign? That might be the easiest way to implement the changes you're thinking of without having to struggle through a few more levels of pain. Thanks for the idea, i will look into it. Of course, if it takes any money to accomplish than it is right out the window. i think i am the richest in the group right now with 232 gold available. Most wealth so far has been in the form of rewards from side quests, everyone had a choice of masterwork weapon to be made for them and i cashed in that offer for our group's wand of CLW. aside from that everyone is still rolling in their character gen gear.
And again, this is all if i survive the fight we suspended in. i was left 5' from the BBEG and 18 points from true death. Its also entirely possible that after this fight we could get the last 2100 XP we need to level and i can do a lot of fixing at level 3.
It has been almost a month but i finally got some more table time in with this character! It still sucked. Still at level 2 and about a thousand points away from level 3 and the beginnings of my chance to fix it.
Took seven shots across the night, two hits. One miss was due to being sickened and shooting into melee without Precise Shot, one miss that may have been due to lacking PS and the rest was just not able to hit things with high AC. Aside from my consistent accuracy problems (missing on a natural roll of 13 is just a horrible place to be for a damage dealing class) the weak Will saves bit me in the session too. My grand Will save of 0 coupled with 5 saves meant a lot of down time for me as my character dry heaved and/or staggered around. Two fights i couldnt participate in due to them in fact.
The two hits i did land were on natural rolls of 19 and 20 which at level 2 anyone should be able to land with.
I had a brief discussion with the table at the end of the night and they all agreed that not having to track arrows was a huge boon to the class... it felt like a participation award.
We have a little bit of wealth coming in now though and maybe i can get a belt of incredible dexterity at some point in the near future.
Oh Level 3, where are you? i need your BAB, i need your EO, i need your wealth to boost hit rolls... The potential of getting a +3 to hit in one level is huge and the only hope that keep me coming back with this character at this point.
By level three i should be able to swing a Wayfinder with an Opalescent White Pyramid (Cracked) Ioun Stone for an extra +1 to hit. By level four i could add a +2 dex belt.
If the character survives long enough the problems still look like they will correct themselves.
I might finally let the thread die after this one. Anyway, another session gone and still not at level 3 yet.
Cleaned house at the Twenty Bones table and got knocked senseless in an alley for it.
Stuck in a closed in space where i had to make acrobatics checks to move out and through threatened spaces due to no melee options. Made three attacks and only one hit. Took a few AoOs due to failed Acrobatics checks too. At least this time not having Precise Strike didnt hurt me.
If nothing else the winnings at the tables got me a masterwork Buckler and Masterwork Chain Shirt so AC is finally up to a nice number (18) and i have close to 500 GP squirreled away towards a wayfinder and Opalescent White Pyramid (Cracked) Ioun Stone. If i can get up to normal wealth by level then it should be affordable fairly soon.
600XP to go and then i get a +2 bump to hit rolls and probably Kinetic Blade with Weapon Finesse, we'll see how it goes.
I am thinking more and more that a better way to play a Kineticist is the finesse and K. Blade route from level one, use ranged attacks when able on the battlefield but dont specialize in it early on since there will be plenty of times when you are locked into melee ranges.
Don't let the thread die. I'm learning here... Play experience threads are among my favorites.
It possible to get retraining into lightning blast instead of air? You'd might have a funner time.
After the session the GM and i talked a bit about my experience with the character. i didnt bring up retraining because at this point i am very close to just fumbling my way to level 3 where i hope to see some significant improvements. It has been an exceptional learning experience for me so far and i would have done a few things differently if i could get a redo. Finesse at level one, higher DEX, go for an elemental attack. In the 1-2 situations where electric wouldnt have worked well i could have fallen back on better AC and at least meeting out 1D4 with decent accuracy using finesse and a cestus. If after my next level i am still having accuracy problems on this scale i will revisit retraining. Surprisingly Enveloping Winds hasnt come into play yet... i dont think there has been a single opposed ranged attack in the campaign so far.
Well, to be fair,you guys are taking an exceptionally long time to get to level 3 as well. Most games I've played in would be at level 4 - 6 at this point, depending on xp track.
Tels wrote: Well, to be fair,you guys are taking an exceptionally long time to get to level 3 as well. Most games I've played in would be at level 4 - 6 at this point, depending on xp track. That is something else i have noticed, i take it as just giving me a lot of play experience at low levels. Which i find usually sucks for things that arent pure martials but there is normally a hard flip around when level 2 spells come online. For this Kineticist it has just sucked a little bit more than my expected norm.
Torbyne wrote: Tels wrote: Well, to be fair,you guys are taking an exceptionally long time to get to level 3 as well. Most games I've played in would be at level 4 - 6 at this point, depending on xp track. That is something else i have noticed, i take it as just giving me a lot of play experience at low levels. Which i find usually sucks for things that arent pure martials but there is normally a hard flip around when level 2 spells come online. For this Kineticist it has just sucked a little bit more than my expected norm. If you were to play a kineticist again, don't go with higher dexterity, finesse, and an elemental blast. Elemental blasts require higher con and lower dexterity to get a good damage boost as your accuracy should be fine vs touch AC. Going higher dexterity and finesse at the expense of con will have you lamenting your lack of damage.
These are the two primary complaints I see about the kineticist. People play high on, moderate dex on physical blasts and have bad accuracy, while others play high dexterity, moderate con on elemental blasts and complain about low damage.
Playing a higher dexterity, finesse physical probably would have solved a number of your problems, or simply using an elemental . Doing both will just replace your current problems with new ones.
Torbyne wrote: I am thinking more and more that a better way to play a Kineticist is the finesse and K. Blade route from level one, use ranged attacks when able on the battlefield but dont specialize in it early on since there will be plenty of times when you are locked into melee ranges. Depends on campaign. Though, from what I have heard offical APs screw you that way.
Tels wrote: Torbyne wrote: Tels wrote: Well, to be fair,you guys are taking an exceptionally long time to get to level 3 as well. Most games I've played in would be at level 4 - 6 at this point, depending on xp track. That is something else i have noticed, i take it as just giving me a lot of play experience at low levels. Which i find usually sucks for things that arent pure martials but there is normally a hard flip around when level 2 spells come online. For this Kineticist it has just sucked a little bit more than my expected norm. If you were to play a kineticist again, don't go with higher dexterity, finesse, and an elemental blast. Elemental blasts require higher con and lower dexterity to get a good damage boost as your accuracy should be fine vs touch AC. Going higher dexterity and finesse at the expense of con will have you lamenting your lack of damage.
These are the two primary complaints I see about the kineticist. People play high on, moderate dex on physical blasts and have bad accuracy, while others play high dexterity, moderate con on elemental blasts and complain about low damage.
Playing a higher dexterity, finesse physical probably would have solved a number of your problems, or simply using an elemental . Doing both will just replace your current problems with new ones. That sounds like solid advice, thank you.
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