Aiming a cone

[Firebug]

In the description of aiming a spell it states for a cone

PRD wrote:

A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won't go around corners.

I took this to mean, pick a corner, lay down a blast shape starting on that corner. But when I tried something like:

Spoiler:

M
X
X X
X X X

The diagonal cone from the opposite corner, I was told no because the examples are

Spoiler:

M
. X
. X X
. X X X (and presumably the mirror image)
Or
. M
. X
X X X
X X X

Is this intended? It certainly seems like to me that my first example fits the description.

[Gauss]

Picture for spell areas (including cones; scroll up slightly)

[Blymurkla]

Ah, hm. I first agreed with you, Firebug, but I think you're wrong.

A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you

"You" are assumed to be in the middle of your square.

So this

M
X
X X
X X X

Doesn’t work. Look at my crude drawing.

Although, I don't understand how this

. M
. X
X X X
X X X

follows the rule It starts from any corner of your square. What corner did that cone start from? Looks like it started from a side.

So, in conclusion, I don't know.

[Firebug]

Strangely, I was already aware of those(re links to blast templates), and wanting clarification on them. You can tell this by when I said I was quoting the PRD, and copied the rules text 8 paragraphs down.
If those are the only ones sets allowed, firing a cone in any direction except "North" and "North-East" is not allowed. Now that is obviously not intended. The shape I was asking about is the exact same shape, so the shape is not what I am questioning. It's the corner you start at. Or rather, starting at the same corner, but flipping it horizontally in a mirror image.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

The text says you start from a corner in your square.

In your example, you're not starting from the corner of your square, you're starting from the edge/side of your square. It's also not emanating correctly, as you must expand it from all parts of the cone origin, you can't reverse the cone form according to what position you take.

That being said, it's not unreasonable to allow it to work that way too, since the secondary way to unleash a cone doesn't follow the bit of RAW you quote, and is still considered a legal means to unleash a cone spell (even though by the written rules, it's not possible).

**EDIT** Diagrams weren't displaying correctly, so they were removed.

[Firebug]

I am not seeing how my first example is not coming from the exact same corner as the rules text example, it's just mirrored along the edge that contains that corner.

... X
... X X
... X X X
M
Starting from the NE corner of M.
.. .. X
.. X X
X X X
.. .. M
Still starting from the NE corner of M, just rotated 90 degrees at that corner.

Infact, the second feels more natural if you were to make a 90 degree arc using your arms.

[Gwen Smith]

Firebug wrote:

I am not seeing how my first example is not coming from the exact same corner as the rules text example, it's just mirrored along the edge that contains that corner.

... X
... X X
... X X X
M
Starting from the NE corner of M.
.. .. X
.. X X
X X X
.. .. M
Still starting from the NE corner of M, just rotated 90 degrees at that corner.

Infact, the second feels more natural if you were to make a 90 degree arc using your arms.

In these examples, your caster is at the right angle of the triangle.

In your original example, your caster was at one of the acute angles of the triangle:
.M
.X
.X X
.X X X

Label your corners this way:
A
X X
B X C

Your caster can be at B, but not at A or C, no matter which direction you turn the cone.

[Darrell Impey UK]

"You" are always at the apex of the cone, with equal portions of it to your right and left. (Figuring with you looking along the diagonal or orthogonal as appropriate. )

[Gauss]

Firebug, then I really am not sure what your question is. Perhaps it is because your art is not complete.

The examples shown on the PRD are fine, all you have to do is rotate the example 90 degrees for a new direction.

[bugleyman]

Gauss wrote:

Firebug, then I really am not sure what your question is. Perhaps it is because your art is not complete.

The examples shown on the PRD are fine, all you have to do is rotate the example 90 degrees for a new direction.

It's the relative position of the caster and the area-of-effect.

And no, imo what the OP wanted wasn't allowed. If he wanted that area, he needed to move 5 feet.

[fretgod99]

I believe Firebug is asking if the first image here is acceptable. The PRD shows the second.

I suppose it depends on how strictly one adjudicates "shoots away from you". Can't remember if there's been a decision on this one yet or not. I'm sure it's been debated.

.
.
.

X__
XX_
XXX
C

_X
_XX
_XXX
C

[Orfamay Quest]

The easiest way to think about it, in my opinion, is to draw a line along the center of the cone. (Darrell Impey said much the same thing with his "equal portions of [the cone] to right and left.)

You need to be on that line when you cast, because the cone comes from you.

As you've drawn the pictures, it looks like the cone is "coming from" the square immediately to your side -- as in, you're starting the cone at your left-hand corner and having the cone go to the right (or vice versa). That's not the way it's supposed to work. If you start the cone to your left, the cone continues to your left, and similarly, if it starts on your right, it continues to the right.

[Gauss]

Ahhh thanks fretgod, now I see...his first example is putting it in the 'northwest' corner and then the cone is aimed north-east.

Yeah, no, it would have to come from the north-east corner to go north-east.

[Firebug]

So where is all this "draw a line through the center of your square" you guys keep quoting?
Closest I can find to what you guys seem to be referring to is:

PRD Flanking:

Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

PRD Area of Spells:

Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.

PRD Cone:

Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Sphere: Most spells that affect an area have a particular shape.

A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above(in this case below)), and thus won't go around corners.

Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

I think we can all agree that we are talking about the same point of origin.

Diagrams!:

__X
_XX
XXX.
__C

_ X
_ XX
_.XXX
C

C's NE in both cases here. The "."

So to rephrase, the point of origin is C's NE corner, not C due to the rules text for Area of Spells. Due to Burst/Emanation/Spread text every point in the blast is measured from that point of origin. The only bit that is unclear is "shoots away from you in a quarter-circle". Which is a little unusual since you aren't actually measuring from 'your square'.

Again, I invite you to make a quarter circle with your arms pointing 90 degrees apart. Directly in front of you (ie example 1, facing N right arm pointing north, left arm pointing west) is much easier to do than not (ie example 2, right arm pointing east, left arm... detached and attached to right shoulder pointing north?).

[Toblakai]

Here is my take on what a 15 foot cone could be cast like. The cone starts from any corner of the casters square. The starting point of the cone depends on the angle for 45 degrees there is only one starting point, for 90 degree angles there are 2 potential starting points.

http://i.imgur.com/lpHA9kI.png

For a frame of reference:

http://imgur.com/btLFSw0

A lot of places to shoot a cone from.

[Blymurkla]

Firebug wrote:

So where is all this "draw a line through the center of your square" you guys keep quoting?

A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate.

You are standing in the center of a square. The cone shoots away from you. Which would make the second cone variant here invalid.

I don't know if that interpretation is correct, but to me it looks like a plausible reading of the rule and I believe it's what others in this thread refers too with "line through the center".

[Gauss]

Toblakai,

Looking at your image and starting on the top line and going left to right we have:

Line 1: Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal, Legal
Line 2: Not Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal
Line 3: Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal
Line 4: Not Legal, Not Legal.

In short only 1:1, 1:4, 3:1 are legal. All of the rest of your examples are not legal.

The reason for this is that none of them are directly away from you.

Example: In your Line 1 #2 example the cone starts in the top right corner and then moves in a direction that is not directly away from the caster.

[Franz Lunzer]

hmm... These interpretations are new to me.

How about the last 'line'-diagramm shown on the PRD? It's not 'shooting away from the red dot-Center'

[Jeraa]

Franz Lunzer wrote:

hmm... These interpretations are new to me.

How about the last 'line'-diagramm shown on the PRD? It's not 'shooting away from the red dot-Center'

It isn't shooting directly aay from the caster, as that is not a requirement. It just has to shoot in some direction away from the caster. Everyone that is saying that the line must go through the center of the caster's space is flat out wrong.

[Franz Lunzer]

So, how's that different from a cone where the middle is going along that line?

[Gauss]

There are two possible ways you can use a 15' cone both of which are shown on CRB p215. From these two two ways you get 8 directions.

Here is an image I have created to show this based on the diagrams in the CRB.

[Gulthor]

Gauss wrote:

There are two possible ways you can use a 15' cone both of which are shown on CRB p215. From these two two ways you get 8 directions.

Here is an image I have created to show this based on the diagrams in the CRB.

Beautifully illustrated.

[Toblakai]

Gauss wrote:

Toblakai,

Looking at your image and starting on the top line and going left to right we have:

Line 1: Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal, Legal
Line 2: Not Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal
Line 3: Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal
Line 4: Not Legal, Not Legal.

In short only 1:1, 1:4, 3:1 are legal. All of the rest of your examples are not legal.

The reason for this is that none of them are directly away from you.

Example: In your Line 1 #2 example the cone starts in the top right corner and then moves in a direction that is not directly away from the caster.

They are legal, they are shooting away from you. Please notice that a creature takes up a very small portion of the square, and the rules also state that the origin point is any corner of your square.

[Dave Justus]

Gauss wrote:

There are two possible ways you can use a 15' cone both of which are shown on CRB p215. From these two two ways you get 8 directions.

Here is an image I have created to show this based on the diagrams in the CRB.

This is of course the correct answer.

I could understand there being some cause for interpreting the rules otherwise if the core rulebook had only the text, or only the illustrations of the areas to make a ruling on, but between the two it is clear that the templates Gauss illustrated are the correct and only options.

You will not that there is one, and only one, shape that covers each square next to the casters square. If you aim NE, you get the NE cone, if you aim east, you get the east cone etc.

[Dave Justus]

Toblakai wrote:

Please notice that a creature takes up a very small portion of the square

From a rules perspective this simply isn't true. The space of a small or medium creature is 5'. A small or medium creature takes up exactly one square of space.

[Orfamay Quest]

Toblakai wrote:

Gauss wrote:

Toblakai,

Looking at your image and starting on the top line and going left to right we have:

Line 1: Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal, Legal
Line 2: Not Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal
Line 3: Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal, Not Legal
Line 4: Not Legal, Not Legal.

In short only 1:1, 1:4, 3:1 are legal. All of the rest of your examples are not legal.

The reason for this is that none of them are directly away from you.

Example: In your Line 1 #2 example the cone starts in the top right corner and then moves in a direction that is not directly away from the caster.

They are legal, they are shooting away from you.

Goodness, no. In three of the diagrams, you are actually caught in the cone that is ostensibly "shooting away from you." In most of the others, the cone is shooting at some odd angle relative to you.

I'm afraid that Gauss is correct, and that only three of your diagrams represent legal cones, because those are the three where the cone is actually heading away from you.

[Firebug]

So again, the only time we actually care about the caster's square in the rules text is the words "A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate."
The rules say "The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection."
I could easily take that to mean that "you" refers to the point of origin.

Otherwise, consider what happens if the point of origin not adjacent to your character? Project image, scrying, or a theoretical metamagic that changes a 20' radius burst (fireball) into a 20' cone (I want to say some class feature/item/something allows this, but I can't find it) or moves the point of origin, say telekinesis on a scatter weapon? You are certainly able to shoot yourself with a tk'ed shotgun or would the cone always move away from "you" and not the point of origin?

Sure some of those feel like you are in the square, but you really aren't.

[Toblakai]

The rules specifically state the cone starts from any corner. It also states that it shoots "away" from you. So does pathfinder now have facing? Or does "away from" mean that it moves "away from" the designated corner?

I believe that the word "you" is synonymous with "corner".

How does ranged line of sight work?

A line of effect starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that would block it.

I assume when shooting a bow, it has to be "away" from you also right? So how do you do that from a back corner of your square for instance? Hmm.. maybe the same way you would use a cone from the back corner possibly?

[bugleyman]

I have a question for the people arguing that the corner of origination and the direction of the cone are unrelated: Why do the diagrams in the CRB feature the red dot, and a single one at that?

[Gauss]

Toblakai, check the diagrams in the CRB.

You have cone directions that contradict the diagrams in the CRB.

Again, these are the only legal options for a 15' cone. This is taken right from the CRB diagrams.

[Toblakai]

Gauss wrote:

Toblakai, check the diagrams in the CRB.

You have cone directions that contradict the diagrams in the CRB.

Again, these are the only legal options for a 15' cone. This is taken right from the CRB diagrams.

If I go specifically from the CRB, it appears that I can only do a 15 foot cone north or north-east. It also appears that I cannot do a 30 foot line on a diagonal, that in fact the 30 foot line appears to have to start on an "edge" even though the rules point out that it is from a corner.

I think this is FAQ worthy. The rules contradict the diagrams.

[Gauss]

Your north or north-east argument is specious. The diagram is showing relative positioning between the caster and the cone. Rotate the diagram 90degrees and you get a new direction.

As for being FAQ worthy, it really isn't as there isn't a contradiction.

There are two possible interpretations for the wording. One is correct. The diagrams illustrate which one is correct.

Note: I am not addressing your line comments because that is an entirely different discussion which should happen in another thread.

[Toblakai]

Gauss wrote:

Your north or north-east argument is specious. The diagram is showing relative positioning between the caster and the cone. Rotate the diagram 90degrees and you get a new direction.

As for being FAQ worthy, it really isn't as there isn't a contradiction.

There are two possible interpretations for the wording. One is correct. The diagrams illustrate which one is correct.

Yeah my n/nw argument was a little specious.

How about my argument on the 45 degree line spell? You can't do it apparently. Other than I have seen it used on a 45 degree angle many of times with no one complaining.

The diagrams are not meant to show every possible configuration. Look at the 30 foot cone, do you have to always use it from the "left" square of the cone? So using them as an argument that those configurations are the only allowed ones is not valid.

[Toblakai]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Goodness, no. In three of the diagrams, you are actually caught in the cone that is ostensibly "shooting away from you." In most of the others, the cone is shooting at some odd angle relative to you.

I'm afraid that Gauss is correct, and that only three of your diagrams represent legal cones, because those are the three where the cone is actually heading away from you.

Would you allow a caster to cast a burning hands on something that was squeezing into your square, like a tiny creature?

[Firebug]

"But you just shift the 30' cone left a square or mirror image it and you can!"

Kinda my point.

Let's say you have one of those cool rigid wire template forms I have seen at a few cons. You put the right angle corner down on the right intersection, and there are 2(ok 3) ways to angle the cone without moving the point of origin and without hitting yourself.

Let's take it a different way. Let's say you are a 3x3 square creature size, or even 6x6. What are the possible cone positions? Just out from the four corners and straight out from the middle of a "side"? So still only 8 positions? Are there adjacent squares that cannot be hit? Where does the straight out cone shape start on an even #square sided creature?

[Gauss]

The point here Toblakai is that the diagrams clearly indicate how to interpret the text. Your interpretation contradicts that.

[TriOmegaZero]

I've never been terribly certain about which interpretation to go with, but I think for simplicity Gauss has the right of it.

Since the rules say 'A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle' I would say that turning the right angle left or right would have the cone shooting across you, not away from you.

[Ian Bell]

I hadn't realized that Pathfinder changed the cone rules from 3.5. It definitely used to be legal to place a cone to originate from the 'back' corner, as it were, perhaps that's the start of the confusion here.

[TriOmegaZero]

The text actually didn't change.

[Firebug]

Gauss wrote:

The point here Toblakai is that the diagrams clearly indicate how to interpret the text. Your interpretation contradicts that.

So if the diagrams are how we interpret the text, why does the straight cone example all of a sudden not use the point of origin being an intersection, like the rules state that it must?

PRD Aiming a spell:

Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection.
...
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.
...
The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
...
It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes.
...
It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect.

The official example contradicts the rules, effectively 5 times.
Now what.

In fact, I'd venture to say that its an error on the artists rendering. If you look closely, in all of the radius examples the big red dot is on an intersection. Like the rules state you are supposed to do. For cones and lines, it is in the middle of a square. Contrary to the rules text. Its like the artist decided the red dot was the creature in cones/lines but only the actual point of origin in radii.

[TriOmegaZero]

The straight cone's point of origin is the grid intersection between the first two squares, which form the first 5ft of the cone.

[Firebug]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

The straight cone's point of origin is the grid intersection between the first two squares, which form the first 5ft of the cone.

XXX

XXX
_X_
__C
Then is legal then? All squares "shoots away from you" and its the same template and same point of origin on C.
XXX
XXX
_X_
C__
Or same point of origin on the template.

And nothing about my other point then? Red dot being creature as opposed to point of origin? Its sounding like my problem is that the artist uses them interchangeably, like this example above.

[Gauss]

Firebug, the easiest way to think about it is to draw a line from the center of your square through the center of your 15' cone.

Here is an example with the center lines. The top half is correct while the bottom half is not correct and shows why it does not work. (I used 2.5' grid squares on this to properly draw the lines.)

Note: I said think about it because drawing a line is not part of the rules but it appears to be the underlying reasoning in the 15' cone diagrams.

Note2: The "north" 30' cone in the CRB diagrams appears to be a compromise. There is no way to center the 30' cone on the caster so they had to off-set it.

[Gauss]

One other note, there is another "hidden" reason why the examples in the CRB work and Toblakai's example does not.

Count the distance from the caster to ANY far point in the cone. It will always equal the distance of the cone (or 5' less if the next square would cost more than the available remaining distance).

Toblakai's examples violate that premise.

One more image showing why the CRB examples work and Toblakai's and Firebug's examples do not work.
In the bottom left example you are exceeding your available range (the squares that would take 20' to get to). In the bottom right example you are gaining two squares (the two squares marked "15" outside of the normal cone template).

[Ravingdork]

I'm only seeing 90-degree angles being shown. Surely I could shoot the cone at, say, a 24-degree angle from me.

[TriOmegaZero]

But why would you want to cover only 24 degrees? Pretty narrow cone.

[Ravingdork]

That's not what I mean, TOZ. I'm talking about positioning, not the width of the cone. Surely the rules don't limit you to just 8 positions.

[TriOmegaZero]

How would you represent a cone shifted by 24 degrees?

[Ravingdork]

That's what I'd like to know! :P

[Azothath]

sadly many take the diagrams as the only options... the circle and cone were simplified to help people understand how the quantization works as in the old system with half squares it spawned bonuses on the edges or some house rule... so the diagrams are a simplification of the AoE. So mainly just popular angles were diagrammed (otherwise there'd be hundreds).

PFS is a simple game and sticking with canon will help you stay out of trouble. Generally, your caster just has to 5ft step to make everyone happy with the provided template.

in non-PFS you just need your GM to agree on using a string and that you have many angles of fire (4Pi solid angle). Count the number of squares you get to keep the AoE filling about the same quantized cubic area.

That being said, only spells that are Shapeable(S) allow you to change their shape. Metamagics also apply.