Swarm rules

[Valandil Ancalime]

My players are going to encounter the swarm in the

Spoiler:

1st dungeon of Shattered Star

. Is there a good place to find an explanation of how they work. I've searched but they seem to have more questions than answers. Maybe a faq page or errata on swarms.

[Brf]

The swarm-subtype section in the Bestiary explains it pretty well.

[Deighton Thrane]

What exactly are you looking to know about swarms that the subtype section doesn't explain? Because I don't think they've ever had a blog post expanding on how they work, it might be best to just ask the boards about anything you're unclear about.

[Wheldrake]

The most commonly asked question about swarms is how PCs can damage them. Alchemical items are good at lower levels, then area effect spells like fireball are your go-to solution a little higher up.

[GM 1990]

The "immune to weapon damage" ones are pretty nasty, as you could end up with some dead PCs if they don't have some kind of fire/acid/splash, etc in alchemical or spell form.

It can catch players off guard because it seems like an unusual circumstance for PF, which almost always has DR #/type allowing some nice special defense for the monster, but also allowing PCs with basic equipment to still damage it as long as they exceed the DR. So to actually have something fully immune to all weapons (especially against 1st level PCs who may not have many options) isn't typical of most things in the bestiary. In 1E if it required magic or silver to hit...you just could not do damage with weapons not meeting the requirement even on a crit so it was more normal for groups to keep alternate "backup options" or always invest in a silver dagger and a couple arrows "just in case". Since its so rare in PF, players might be a little lazy about always being ready for a swarm - especially if new to the game. However, even the least prepared group will probably have some torches so can do some fire damage.

If this is the groups first time fighting a swarm, it can be a fun encounter and put a sense of fear into them.

The 10' x 10' mass of 1000's of spiders rolls over you and you take X biting and need to save vs poison - there are so many of them your armor seems useless as they crawl into every crevice and opening. Everyone slashes/smashes and you can describe how its like hitting a pond...the weapons just slip through the swarm - maybe squishing a couple, but in general doing -nothing-. You may have to nudge them a little to try fire (or remember they've even got torches/oil in a backpack).

2 key points to fighting those immune to weapon damage:
a. Splash and AoE weapons do 1.5x damage - don't forget that as it'll add up fast.
b. although it moves into your square to attack you it fills 4 squares, so you and your party can hit those 3 remaining squares to damage the swarm, they don't have to target the one you are in.

[Valandil Ancalime]

Summon Swarm wrote:

You summon a swarm of bats, rats, or spiders (your choice), which attacks all other creatures within its area. (You may summon the swarm so that it shares the area of other creatures.) If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel.

I guess my questions are more about a swarm from the Summon Swarm spell.

1- if there is a living creature already in the swarm, can the swarm still move onto other adjacent creatures as long as it still remains on the creature that started the round in it.
xx
xz2
1
x=swarm
z=creature in swarm
1 and 2=creatures outside swarm

2- If there are no living creatures in the swarm it moves. Does it stop at the 1st living nearest creature or can it move over others as long as it also stops on the 1st creature as well.
xx 3
xx12

[MeanMutton]

It does not appear to allow it to move to attack multiple people. You can summon it on top of multiple people and if it ends up on multiple people while taking the most direct route to the closest living person, great, but the explicit directions simply say "stay put on living creatures, move to closest living creature if it's not on top of a creature".

[Valandil Ancalime]

It doesn't say "stay put" at all. How do other people run it?

[wraithstrike]

I think if the swarm can cover multiple creatures then all of them would take damage.

[Lilith Knight]

It attacks all creatures in its area, and will move to cover other creatures. It can definitely move to attack multiple creatures, you don't get to direct its movement though so the DM basically gets a say on who it attacks which may be your allies if they are the closest creatures.

[_Ozy_]

I think the question is, would it move 5' to engulf an additional person, if it already was munching on a living creature.

[Valandil Ancalime]

OK, let's try multiple choice;

Question 1
xx
xz2
1
x=swarm
z=creature in swarm
1 and 2=creatures outside swarm

if there is a living creature already in the swarm, can the swarm still move onto other adjacent creatures as long as it still remains on the creature that started the round in it.
A)it must remain where it is attacking z
B)it may move to engulf 1 and 2 as well as z

Question 2
xx 3
xx12
If there are no living creatures in the swarm it moves. Does it stop at the 1st living nearest creature or can it move over others as long as it also stops on the 1st creature as well.
A)it my only move and engulf 1
B)it may move to engulf 1, 2 and 3

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

I think B in both cases, because swarms are supposed to be nasty and troublesome.

[Starglim]

1. B
2. I think A, since the spell description says it stops when it contacts a creature. edit: This is different from how a natural swarm would behave. The next round it could move as per 1.

[_Ozy_]

From the spell:

Quote:

If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel.

What makes you guys think the swarm moves if it has a living creature within its area already?

[MeanMutton]

_Ozy_ wrote:

From the spell:

Quote:

If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel.

What makes you guys think the swarm moves if it has a living creature within its area already?

Exactly this.

[MeanMutton]

Valandil Ancalime wrote:

It doesn't say "stay put" at all. How do other people run it?

Summon Swarm wrote:

You summon a swarm of bats, rats, or spiders (your choice), which attacks all other creatures within its area. (You may summon the swarm so that it shares the area of other creatures.) If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel.

The spell itself is very clear - if creatures are within its area, it attacks the creatures within its area. That's it. It doesn't move, it doesn't engage other creatures, it doesn't do anything else. It simply attacks the creatures within its area.

If there are no creatures in its area then it "attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can." Note that it says "nearest creature" - singular - and not "nearest creatures".

[Valandil Ancalime]

_Ozy_ wrote:

From the spell:

Quote:

If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel.

What makes you guys think the swarm moves if it has a living creature within its area already?

Why do you assume it can't move if it has a living creature inside it? The spell says 2 things

1 - attacks all other creatures within its area.
2 - If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can.

Which of those prevent the swarm from adjusting it's position to attack more targets?

[_Ozy_]

The fact that it does not list option 3.

Option 1 and 2 are a comprehensive list of how the mindless swarm acts. Why would you assume it can take any other actions other than the 2 listed?

Does it flee from fire? No, because it doesn't say so. Does it preferentially attack spellcasters? No, because it doesn't say so.

And so on.

[kinevon]

_Ozy_ wrote:

The fact that it does not list option 3.

Option 1 and 2 are a comprehensive list of how the mindless swarm acts. Why would you assume it can take any other actions other than the 2 listed?

Does it flee from fire? No, because it doesn't say so. Does it preferentially attack spellcasters? No, because it doesn't say so.

And so on.

And how come a mindless but hungry swarm doesn't move, minimally, without leaving the living creature it is devouring, so more of it can get to eat?

Wouldn't a creatureless swarm square be under the command of the spell that would cause it to chase the nearest creature it could, as long as it doesn't cause the section eating to have to move?

In other words, is within its area on a per square, or per total swarm area basis?