Recently at a convention, I played my 8th level Ragechemist Alchemist. I have the Feral Mutagen discovery:
"Feral mutagen: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist's full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks."
And Improved Unarmed Strike:
"You are skilled at fighting while unarmed.
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice.
Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack."
Now from what I am reading in the Core Rulebook's Combat Section:
"Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following" (quoted for limb options)
with
"Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."
Should mean that my Full Attack should consist of "+6 Kick/+1 Kick/+1 Claw/+1 Claw/+1 Bite" with damage equal to "1d3+STR/1d3+STR/1d6+0.5*STR/1d6+0.5*STR/1d8+0.5*STR" right? (assuming that only BAB is being calculated at the moment)
The reason I ask this is because the GM said that I can't get both my Unarmed Strike and my Natural Attacks at the same time, I have to choose. I argued briefly and eventually just folded so we can continue the session. The next day, the VC of the area said that according to the boards that my secondary attacks would replace my iterative attack. I am by no means a master of the rules, but I don't see where or how that is happening. Can anyone point to a FAQ, rule, or clarification? I would like to be able to avoid this in the future if possible.
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In Combat Standard Actions -> Attack -> Natural Attacks
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
So yes, your full attack routine will be "+6 Kick/+1 Kick/+1 Claw/+1 Claw/+1 Bite" with damage equal to "1d3+STR/1d3+STR/1d6+0.5*STR/1d6+0.5*STR/1d8+0.5*STR" right? (assuming that only BAB is being calculated at the moment)
What may have happened is that they were remembering the Monk Flurry forbiddance on Natural Attacks, since most Unarmed combatants tend to be of the Monk variety. Flurry specifically cannot be used alongside Natural Attacks.
Unarmed Strikes should for this purpose be treated as any other type of iterative weapon attack for combining with Natural Attacks. You can combine iterative and natural attacks as long as they are not using the same limb. Iterative attacks are taken normally, then each of the natural attacks all as secondary attacks at -5.
Mechanically it should be as you figured, +6 Kick/+1 Kick/+1 Claw/+1 Claw/+1 Bite.
Might be a bit cheesy, but it should be legal.
-j
Two iterative attacks with your Unarmed Strike.
+6 Kick for 1d3+STR
+1 Kick for 1d3+STR
And three (now secondary) natural attacks with your Claws and Bite
+1 Claw for 1d6+0.5*STR
+1 Claw for 1d6+0.5*STR
+1 Bite for 1d8+0.5*STR
That looks correct to me.
Thanks for the replys, maybe just a misunderstanding. I feel better knowing that I haven't cheated unintentionally.
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Unarmed strikes are treated as iterative attacks with a manufactured weapon, and can thus be used in a full attack with natural attacks, with the natural attacks being treated as secondary.
There are several types of Rakshasa in the bestiary with stat blocks showing this.
You get all your Natural Attacks, and you get your regular attacks+your iteratives when you take the Full Attack Action.
Flurry of Blows is a different Full Round Action.
It's annoying when the referee doesn't know the rules, but ultimately, if you can't convince him quickly, you have to either give in or walk away.
You can and probably should prepare for the ignorant GM next time. Have your rules all ready with references so you can quickly quote chapter and verse. Have your places marked in your book. Have your web citations handy on a sheet of paper. Anticipate the arguments.
Argue your point, but be succinct. And again, if you can't convince him quickly, you have to give in or walk away.
Should mean that my Full Attack should consist of "+6 Kick/+1 Kick/+1 Claw/+1 Claw/+1 Bite"Actually, +6 for your Kick, both Claws, and your Bite. Monk Unarmed Strikes count as Natural Weapons, and so don't demote primary natural attacks to secondary, at least not by RAW.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.Anyway, that's what the rules say.
He is an Alchemist, not a Monk. (And even for a Monk, I think the Natural Weapons do become secondary.)
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But even a monk making natural attacks and IUS takes the penalty to their NA making them secondary. The monk's IUS doesn't do anything to other natural attacks he possesses.
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But even a monk making natural attacks and IUS takes the penalty to their NA making them secondary. The monk's IUS doesn't do anything to other natural attacks he possesses.Correct.Since the OP's PC has no levels in Monk, it was my mistake to have brought it up.
And having copped to my mistake, it is inappropriate for either of you to debate the matter further on this thread.
That being said, I brought evidence, and neither of you did.
Enough said.
Except you always ignore the limiter in the rules you quoted. "for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." You can enhance or improve a monk unarmed strike as a natural weapon. That doesn't mean it is a natural weapon.
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But even a monk making natural attacks and IUS takes the penalty to their NA making them secondary. The monk's IUS doesn't do anything to other natural attacks he possesses.Correct.Since the OP's PC has no levels in Monk, it was my mistake to have brought it up.
And having copped to my mistake, it is inappropriate for either of you to debate the matter further on this thread.
That being said, I brought evidence, and neither of you did.
Enough said.
Yeah... no. You're saying wrong info on the Rules board - people can and should call you out on it.
Even monk unarmed attack are not natural attacks, and all natural attacks a monk uses in addition to unarmed strikes would be at -5 & .5x STR. (Still useful for MoMS or other monks who give up flurry.)
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VOs can't have authority to make rulings because their rules knowledge isn't vetted. They're just players like you and I that have volunteered to help with recruiting and administrative work in the field. Some of them are mechanics and rules savvy. Some think aiming a fireball into a crowd requires a spellcraft check*. They're not anymore qualified to make rules calls than your local barista is to represent you in court just because you happen to watch Law and Order together.
*The above is a true story.
VOs have no additional rules knowledge or training and should never be treated as gospel. I've had VOs make all kinds of wacky rulings that were commonly known to be wrong (like allowing vital strike on a charge).
I really wish the PFS campaign leadership would stop pushing VOs as a rules source.
VOs aren't specifically a rules source: they're an escalation option. If you think the GM ruled incorrectly, you can appeal to a VO. Often, VOs also happen to be experienced GMs also, but that's just a coincidence.
In our area, we have several 5-star GMs who are not VOs, and those VOs with fewer stars tend to listen to them.
(Except for Louis--we never listen to Louis.) :-)
