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I've tried taking notes a few times, but other players take way better notes. You should see our Scooby Doo and the Carrion Crown notes.
A few of the girl players in my games started an adventurer's log where they kept in-character journals of one of the campaigns (I wish I had a copy of those for sentiment's sake). The other regular girl was too interested in amassing wealth, experience, and power to be bothered with things like journals. She was a super powergamer, when she wasn't tweaking her character's "Husband" she got with Leadership and breeding shocker lizards.
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I've tried taking notes a few times, but other players take way better notes. You should see our Scooby Doo and the Carrion Crown notes.I would so love to play in that game. The concept makes me laugh every time I see you mention it.
I'll check and see if it's okay to share the notes outside of our Facebook group.
I did run a game once with the cliched chase back and forth across a hallway with multiple doors where the villains and heroes would come out different doors each time (rolled randomly). When they finally came out directly across from each other the fight was on!
I've tried taking notes a few times, but other players take way better notes. You should see our Scooby Doo and the Carrion Crown notes.A few of the girl players in my games started an adventurer's log where they kept in-character journals of one of the campaigns (I wish I had a copy of those for sentiment's sake). The other regular girl was too interested in amassing wealth, experience, and power to be bothered with things like journals. She was a super powergamer, when she wasn't tweaking her character's "Husband" she got with Leadership and breeding shocker lizards.
Did she also breed Shambling Mounds?
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Did she also breed Shambling Mounds?I've tried taking notes a few times, but other players take way better notes. You should see our Scooby Doo and the Carrion Crown notes.A few of the girl players in my games started an adventurer's log where they kept in-character journals of one of the campaigns (I wish I had a copy of those for sentiment's sake). The other regular girl was too interested in amassing wealth, experience, and power to be bothered with things like journals. She was a super powergamer, when she wasn't tweaking her character's "Husband" she got with Leadership and breeding shocker lizards.
Nope, but it's a toss up to whether or not she would. There's a very strong chance that she would have been torn at her very core, choosing between "most powerful mega pet combination" and "big ugly shambling bog monster", because that would have mattered. :P
She was doing magical shocker lizard experiments though, such as using magic to breed them to have wings.
She once went out in search of a tribe of trolls so she could put her fireball spells to fun use and earn massive amounts of experience points. Yep, that's right. She literally committed genocide for fun and profit.
It's good to see that so many groups have a diverse player-base, following the numbers on this thread it seems that a lot of groups are 20-50% women. Of the groups I've GMed, mostly via Roll20, I've had one woman and one girl out of about 25 people total over the course of running 1 permanent/ongoing campaign, and 4 short/now-defunct campaigns; this comes to a bit under 10% women:men.
I wonder if this has generally been people's experience in online games, and if not, what suggestions people have for making a more girl/woman-friendly gaming environment.
I have noticed something similar. While I haven't been part of many roll20 groups, when looking through the rosters of other games, it looks like the majority are male only groups. Of course, you can't always tell just by screen names alone, but those who use their true name, I have noticed a large portion are male names.
I don't know what we could do to increase the number of females participating in them. Internet doesn't have the best track record when it comes to that, unfortunately.
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It's good to see that so many groups have a diverse player-base, following the numbers on this thread it seems that a lot of groups are 20-50% women. Of the groups I've GMed, mostly via Roll20, I've had one woman and one girl out of about 25 people total over the course of running 1 permanent/ongoing campaign, and 4 short/now-defunct campaigns; this comes to a bit under 10% women:men.
I wonder if this has generally been people's experience in online games, and if not, what suggestions people have for making a more girl/woman-friendly gaming environment.
I think it is important to remember that to most girls and women who game, being female comes completely natural. Don't make that the central point for wanting / having them in your group. You probably wouldn't even say to yourself "How great that Adam,, a man, is gaming with us" - in the same vein, don't make it about Eve, the woman.
She will probably have joined your group to game with you, not to be gawked at as some factotum, nor as a price to set apart your group from others. She is probably not there to flirt with you, to become your or your players girlfriend or token gal.
Treat her more or less like everyone else - try to find a gaming style that fits everybody in the group, not singling her out either way. Don't expect her do be an inherently different gamer just because of her gender.
As a GM: Don't single her character out for all the stuff you always wanted a female PC for - rape / love potions / magical pregnancy / NPCs 'she can't resist' etc 'just because' - don't do it. As a player: don't creep on her character just because your character is the strongest, most charismatic or best endowed guy there is.
In other words: it helps if neither the players nor the characters act as disrespectful mysogynists.
That's odd I had to go to post to see the newest post on this one.
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I can't possibly agree with feytharn's above points more.
Additionally, to particularly emphasize a point I suspect a lot of people might miss: If one wants to be inviting to women, I'd strongly suggest not, y'know hitting on them at game. Seriously guys, they're here to game, not get hit on (for the most part, anyway).
If you're hanging out with them some other time and they seem interested that's a whole different thing, but hitting on someone actually at game is basically never a good plan. Don't do it.
Indeed, any time there's a formal social activity going on and people can't just leave without being impolite? Don't hit on anyone. They're trapped there with you and if they're not interested you just made things super awkward...I mean, shutting you down explicitly in front of everyone is super rude, and that's pretty much the only option that tends to get such behavior to stop (since hope springs eternal). So if they aren't interested, they can be rude, leave, or feel uncomfortable...and that's pretty close to it. That's a s!!#ty situation to put someone in. Don't do it.
It's the social, rather than physical, (and thus less severe) version of "Don't hit on women in elevators." and a super bad idea.
OTOH, people are more likely to be a++&@!*s online, especially anonymously. OTGH, it's also easier to pass as male on the internets and I know many women do that, in at least some circumstances.
Most, I suspect, feel even more at-ease trying out a new activity with someone (or better yet some group) they already know and trust, rather than the random grab bag of a convention or game store.
Personal experience and anecdotal evidence suggests that women make up a larger percentage of home games than of other face-to-face environments.I also strongly doubt most people, male or female, get their start gaming online with strangers.
True story:
I'm a Guy In Real Life.
Playing a particular MMO, I've had some exceptionally bad experiences due to individuals assuming because I was playing a female character that I as a player was interested in their 'advances', in part because *I didn't make a big deal about it*, so *must be legit*.
We won't go into the details of some of the truly creepy things, thankfully there was an 'ignore' and a 'report' function available...
This doesn't diminish the 'gamer wall' that women have to fight through, but I have a bit more empathy for the situation than some do as a result.
The tables I've been at with women in my games has been positive, though I always worry that I come off too 'over the top' and scare them away playing in-character (no advances or unwanted behaviour because at the table, all are brothers and sisters and that is be a very HUGE turn-off for me.)
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OTOH, people are more likely to be a++&@!*s online, especially anonymously. OTGH, it's also easier to pass as male on the internets and I know many women do that, in at least some circumstances.
Most, I suspect, feel even more at-ease trying out a new activity with someone (or better yet some group) they already know and trust, rather than the random grab bag of a convention or game store.
Personal experience and anecdotal evidence suggests that women make up a larger percentage of home games than of other face-to-face environments.I also strongly doubt most people, male or female, get their start gaming online with strangers.
True story:
I'm a Guy In Real Life.
Playing a particular MMO, I've had some exceptionally bad experiences due to individuals assuming because I was playing a female character that I as a player was interested in their 'advances', in part because *I didn't make a big deal about it*, so *must be legit*.
We won't go into the details of some of the truly creepy things, thankfully there was an 'ignore' and a 'report' function available...
This doesn't diminish the 'gamer wall' that women have to fight through, but I have a bit more empathy for the situation than some do as a result.
The tables I've been at with women in my games has been positive, though I always worry that I come off too 'over the top' and scare them away playing in-character (no advances or unwanted behaviour because at the table, all are brothers and sisters and that is be a very HUGE turn-off for me.)
And that is why one never goes to Goldshire on Moonguard. Also why my wife tends to avoid large player gatherings on most online games unless she has other guildies present.
I think one of the real advantages of TTRPGs, even ones over a VTT (virtual table-top), is that you're interacting with a close group of other humans, and as such people remain accountable for their behavior.
This definitely *seems* true.
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I think this is one of those instances where I can't be entirely certain through text if the comment is sarcasm, pessimism (waiting for the other foot to drop), or something with an uncomfortable and possibly private backstory (or something else entirely).I think one of the real advantages of TTRPGs, even ones over a VTT (virtual table-top), is that you're interacting with a close group of other humans, and as such people remain accountable for their behavior.This definitely *seems* true.
It means that I also think "one of the real advantages of TTRPGs, even ones over a VTT (virtual table-top), is that you're interacting with a close group of other humans, and as such people remain accountable for their behavior.", but I have no factual evidence to support the idea that people ARE actually more accountable for their behavior in such circumstances, but the anecdotal evidence certainly makes it seem that it's the case.
Edit: I am mostly agreeing from a "versus my experience playing MMO's, etc" point of view.
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Welp, this thread sure is a lot of dudes talking about us, and congratulating themselves for being enlightened enough to have women in their groups, rather than to us. Or better yet, asking questions and listening.
I'm unclear as to why anyone would think that men's opinions on women in gaming groups are relevant or needed. You don't get to decide whether we belong here. Anything you have to say about women as a monolith--whether we make good GMs, whether we make good players, etc.--is ignorant and inaccurate as we're not a monolith. Any discussion of how to make gaming tables welcoming to women should be led by women. You shouldn't be trying to speak for us. So I'm not sure what purpose discussions talking about us as if we're some sort of exotic animals serves.
I mean, if you take gender out of it--"blue-eyed people in gaming groups--what do you all think?"--the absurdity starts to become apparent.
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Welp, this thread sure is a lot of dudes talking about us, and congratulating themselves for being enlightened enough to have women in their groups, rather than to us. Or better yet, asking questions and listening.
I'm unclear as to why anyone would think that men's opinions on women in gaming groups are relevant or needed. You don't get to decide whether we belong here. Anything you have to say about women as a monolith--whether we make good GMs, whether we make good players, etc.--is ignorant and inaccurate as we're not a monolith. Any discussion of how to make gaming tables welcoming to women should be led by women. You shouldn't be trying to speak for us. So I'm not sure what purpose discussions talking about us as if we're some sort of exotic animals serves.
I mean, if you take gender out of it--"blue-eyed people in gaming groups--what do you all think?"--the absurdity starts to become apparent.
I certainly see where you might be coming from, Jessica, but (while I admittedly haven't read the thread "cover-to-cover"), it seems like this thread is more about whether or not women are playing tabletop RPGs in mixed-gender groups, not what men think or feel about it or whether or not they ought to play with men.
I don't think there's been a deficit - historically - of blue-eyed people playing or not playing tabletop games, but there has been a disproportionate mix of players along sex and gender lines. This thread was started by a female player in order to celebrate what seemed to her to be a rising number of (and casual acceptance of) female gamers at the tables that she frequents. I think that the participants here (only some of which have remarked about their own genders) are, more or less, only joining the original poster in celebrating and confirming that trend.
Welp, this thread sure is a lot of dudes talking about us, and congratulating themselves for being enlightened enough to have women in their groups, rather than to us. Or better yet, asking questions and listening.
I'm unclear as to why anyone would think that men's opinions on women in gaming groups are relevant or needed. You don't get to decide whether we belong here. Anything you have to say about women as a monolith--whether we make good GMs, whether we make good players, etc.--is ignorant and inaccurate as we're not a monolith. Any discussion of how to make gaming tables welcoming to women should be led by women. You shouldn't be trying to speak for us. So I'm not sure what purpose discussions talking about us as if we're some sort of exotic animals serves.
I mean, if you take gender out of it--"blue-eyed people in gaming groups--what do you all think?"--the absurdity starts to become apparent.
I started playing RPGs right around the time the sexes at my school started self-segregating; up until I was 11 or 12, we all just did stuff, but right around the time I started playing D&D, boys started doing boy stuff, and girls started doing girl stuff. (Don't look at me like that, I listed the sexes in alphabetical order, not order of precedence.)
In this day and age, there's no question that children who are as old as I was when I first played D&D have access to the internet. I think it's useful if boys who come to the Paizo message boards read testimony from grown men, about how females (sorry, Jess) of any age should be welcome at the gaming table.
Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not saying my opinion as a male gamer is more relevant than your experience as female gamer.
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Welp, this thread sure is a lot of dudes talking about us, and congratulating themselves for being enlightened enough to have women in their groups, rather than to us. Or better yet, asking questions and listening.
That's certainly a thing that's happened in this thread a few times, yep.
And I think a lot of people would be quite willing to listen.
I'm unclear as to why anyone would think that men's opinions on women in gaming groups are relevant or needed. You don't get to decide whether we belong here. Anything you have to say about women as a monolith--whether we make good GMs, whether we make good players, etc.--is ignorant and inaccurate as we're not a monolith.
Again, people have done that a bit in this thread, and that's unfortunate (for all the reasons you cite). However, that's not the point of the thread, nor the entirety of the discussion by any means.
Any discussion of how to make gaming tables welcoming to women should be led by women. You shouldn't be trying to speak for us. So I'm not sure what purpose discussions talking about us as if we're some sort of exotic animals serves.
Then do so? I guess? I mean, this thread was started by a woman asking people about women they'd gamed with. Men started talking about various things involving women, sure, but so did women. Is everyone not supposed to be part of that kind of dialogue?
I absolutely agree that women should be leading the discussion on how to make gaming more welcoming to them. They're far more likely to notice all the problems and thus have better solutions for said issues. But there's not inherently anything preventing them from doing so. Not right here and now anyway. So...any women want to do so?
And I'm certainly sorry if my above advice was somehow offensive...though it's actually gender neutral (and even presented as such after the first sentence), but it's certainly true in my experience that such behavior is detrimental to making a gaming table welcoming.
I mean, if you take gender out of it--"blue-eyed people in gaming groups--what do you all think?"--the absurdity starts to become apparent.
I dunno. Talking about a group of people who haven't historically been as common among gamers and how many of them there are seems relevant enough. And talking about how to make anyone more welcome is always relevant, if ideally (as you note) a discussion that should be led by the group in question.
I have a question for women - do you want to be singled out for your gender, as in, the ad for the game says something like "Women welcome" or perhaps there's a code of conduct that says "Women will be treated with respect", or would you prefer that the prospective gender of the players is not addressed in anyway?
Only interested in women's opinions, not any men.
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I'm unclear as to why anyone would think that men's opinions on women in gaming groups are relevant or needed. You don't get to decide whether we belong here.
If the opinions of men on gaming groups do not matter, then why should women be involved at all in discussions of how to make gaming tables welcoming to women? It is men holding bad opinions of women at the gaming table that creates that atmosphere. If the opinions of men at the gaming table are not relevant, then what point is there in having the discussions of how to make women more welcome at the gaming table?
I ask because I am confused about what you were trying to accomplish.
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I have a question for women - do you want to be singled out for your gender, as in, the ad for the game says something like "Women welcome" or perhaps there's a code of conduct that says "Women will be treated with respect", or would you prefer that the prospective gender of the players is not addressed in anyway?
Personally, unless maybe the event is specifically aimed at women (e.g., Raygun Lounge's women's game night), I'd rather see a more general variant on "All gamers are welcome" and a code of conduct statement about not tolerating harassment or "harassment based on X, Y, Z."
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From what I've seen, women approach the game differently than men. Men often jump right in with confidence that they can learn all the rules, while women have more trepidation and/or want to dip their toes into PF, rather than learning all the pages and pages of rules. Sometimes the GM's instinct---and I have been guilty of this---is to chastise a player for not speaking up. "You didn't talk, so you can't make the diplomacy check." In general a better solution would be to figure out a way to include the player and have her be more involved. Though, really, this advice could apply to any player less apt to speak at the table.
That's why I'm very thankful for my first gaming group. They were so thankful to get a woman involved at all! Took the time to explain everything.
The other way that women may need to be treated differently is conflict resolution, specifically related to sexist behavior. If a woman says that a guy is giving her a hard time, the first thing other gamers need to do is believe her. The second thing is to realize that she probably can't handle it on her own. When I had an issue with a guy being sexist to me, most guys didn't notice things that happened right in front of them. And even when they did, they didn't think it was worth doing anything about. Guys who said, "Wow, his sexist behavior is a problem" still went to play at his house every week and wouldn't say anything to him about it. And sometimes all it takes is one problem person before a woman doesn't feel welcome in the community.
I had this problem with my last group, until I finally sat down and talked with the GM. He revealed he had been taught that the old idea women must be protected was sexist, so he wasn't helping me in this context because he thought I could protect myself. I finally had to explain to him that what was sexist is protecting me more than he would any man. Protect me the same amount and it's fine. The problem player was ejected the next week and he had a talk with the group about it.
I don't think that will work with most groups. I'm just glad it worked with that last. But I know the feeling.
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Welp, this thread sure is a lot of dudes talking about us, and congratulating themselves for being enlightened enough to have women in their groups, rather than to us. Or better yet, asking questions and listening.
I'm unclear as to why anyone would think that men's opinions on women in gaming groups are relevant or needed. You don't get to decide whether we belong here. Anything you have to say about women as a monolith--whether we make good GMs, whether we make good players, etc.--is ignorant and inaccurate as we're not a monolith. Any discussion of how to make gaming tables welcoming to women should be led by women. You shouldn't be trying to speak for us. So I'm not sure what purpose discussions talking about us as if we're some sort of exotic animals serves.
I mean, if you take gender out of it--"blue-eyed people in gaming groups--what do you all think?"--the absurdity starts to become apparent.
<David Attenborough voice>Here we see the elusive female gamer in her natural habitat...</DAV>
Not so elusive around here, actually, and I'm very glad to have the chance to see posts like this. I won't offer an opinion, just give a cheer for the ladies of Paizo for their part in making the company so super inclusive and feminist.
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Welp, this thread sure is a lot of dudes talking about us, and congratulating themselves for being enlightened enough to have women in their groups, rather than to us. Or better yet, asking questions and listening.
I'm unclear as to why anyone would think that men's opinions on women in gaming groups are relevant or needed. You don't get to decide whether we belong here. Anything you have to say about women as a monolith--whether we make good GMs, whether we make good players, etc.--is ignorant and inaccurate as we're not a monolith. Any discussion of how to make gaming tables welcoming to women should be led by women. You shouldn't be trying to speak for us. So I'm not sure what purpose discussions talking about us as if we're some sort of exotic animals serves.
I mean, if you take gender out of it--"blue-eyed people in gaming groups--what do you all think?"--the absurdity starts to become apparent.
I hope that my 'advice' didn't offend anyone. Someone asked a question and I tried to give my perspective - I certainly did not wish to put that above womens perspective in this discussion, that would be quite ridiculous.
I have a question for women - do you want to be singled out for your gender, as in, the ad for the game says something like "Women welcome" or perhaps there's a code of conduct that says "Women will be treated with respect", or would you prefer that the prospective gender of the players is not addressed in anyway?Personally, unless maybe the event is specifically aimed at women (e.g., Raygun Lounge's women's game night), I'd rather see a more general variant on "All gamers are welcome" and a code of conduct statement about not tolerating harassment or "harassment based on X, Y, Z."
Do you think this should spill over into how a man should deal with behaviour which isn't making women feel welcome?
What I mean is: suppose I'm running a game and some guy is making lewd suggestions regarding a woman's PC all the time (or one of the other "typical" behaviours that people talk about which would make women feel unwelcome/uncomfortable/bored-to-tears/whatever) - would you prefer I approach it from a "don't be a juvenile jerk" perspective or a "don't be a sexist jerk" perspective?
The latter is presumably more likely to actually educate, but it seems to me it might also create pressure/unwanted attention of its own.
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I started gaming in the 80s. There were no internet forums or online games them. If you wanted a group, you had to rely on friends or cons or the (paper and pin) bulletin board at your local gaming store. I tried all three. I rarely had much success with the latter.
In my many years of gaming or cons, I have never had anyone hit on me or try to pick me up or anything like that. I was also never actively harassed or excluded. But neither was I wasn’t necessarily welcomed. As (usually) the only female attending game night at the local library (or wherever else it was we met back then), I was acutely aware that my presence amused some of the men and disconcerted others. Many felt they had to modify their behaviour and some (occasionally very vocally) resented it. Very rarely, the odd individual made me feel like I was intruding on Secret Men’s Business or something. Whenever something weird happened, one of the other blokes would typically say something like: “Don’t worry about [Joe], he’s just not use to being around a girl”. I know such comments were well-intended, but they highlighted my difference, my intrusion in another world. Frankly, I wasn’t much of a fighter back then, so if I was made aware that someone didn’t want me in a group, I simply removed myself rather than inconvenience them. I doubt I was the only female gamer to do this.
Even when I found a group where I fitted in with, there were typically other, more subtle issues. For example, back in those 80s and 90s games, the (very few) female NPCs were almost always beautiful damsels-in-distress, or objects of lust, or used in some kind of symbolic manner that stripped them of an individual personality (eg. the brutal assault of a beautiful NPC would be symbolic of the assault of the city etc). I was never quite sure how I should feel about such situations. My mind would run in circles...the game is objectifying women ... but the players are all fine with me ... should I say something? ... will it get really weird and uncomfortable and ruin the game if I do?... argh!
In one game system we played, the women were quite literally prizes (Pendragon, from memory). When I made a comment about it, the others just went on about it being ‘historically accurate’. Yes, like the legend of King Arthur is historically accurate </sarcasm>. But again, I didn’t really complain, because I was happy to be roleplaying (and a part of me feared I was already intruding by being female).
Fortunately, times have changed since then. Once I hit uni in the mid-90s I met lots of other female gamers, and trans gamers, and also gamers from different backgrounds of all kinds. Through various twists of fate, my longest running group (10 years+ campaign!) is exclusively female. I would like to think that these days, gender no longer plays any real part in any aspect of gaming in my broader social circle. This may be because we are all now old (in so many senses…) friends, and individual personalities transcend gender. But we are also now much more mature, more experienced, more diverse, and frankly, more socially aware. The subtle sexism of the 80s is much rarer now. Pathfinder, too, has a far more inclusive feel (as did, for example, the white wolf games in the 90s, through which many of my female friends came to gaming).
Anyway, in answer to Tormskull's question:
I have a question for women - do you want to be singled out for your gender, as in, the ad for the game says something like "Women welcome" or perhaps there's a code of conduct that says "Women will be treated with respect", or would you prefer that the prospective gender of the players is not addressed in anyway?
As much as times have changed, I might still be reluctant to put my name forward for pick-up group – if only because, as before, I would be aware that I may not be welcome, and I am not the kind of person who will force my presence on the unwilling for a mere game (work is something different entirely). I wouldn't want to be singled out by gender, but if the ad said "we welcome diversity" or "all welcome to apply" or something like I would find that pretty encouraging.
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I have a question for women - do you want to be singled out for your gender, as in, the ad for the game says something like "Women welcome" or perhaps there's a code of conduct that says "Women will be treated with respect", or would you prefer that the prospective gender of the players is not addressed in anyway?Personally, unless maybe the event is specifically aimed at women (e.g., Raygun Lounge's women's game night), I'd rather see a more general variant on "All gamers are welcome" and a code of conduct statement about not tolerating harassment or "harassment based on X, Y, Z."
This and one step further; ENFORCE the rules against harassment. To many just turn a blind eye even on the rare time they do believe her.
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Also I totally agree that we are NOT a monolith. One of my bad experiences at a game table was from the only other girl at the table... so yeah we aren't ALL the same at all.
Edit: I mean to say she was ALL "Kill everyone! Rarrrr!!!" even to the point of killing important NPCs... or even my character when I spoke up. Where I prefer roleplay in front of my numbers.
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I have a question for women - do you want to be singled out for your gender, as in, the ad for the game says something like "Women welcome" or perhaps there's a code of conduct that says "Women will be treated with respect", or would you prefer that the prospective gender of the players is not addressed in anyway?Personally, unless maybe the event is specifically aimed at women (e.g., Raygun Lounge's women's game night), I'd rather see a more general variant on "All gamers are welcome" and a code of conduct statement about not tolerating harassment or "harassment based on X, Y, Z."Do you think this should spill over into how a man should deal with behaviour which isn't making women feel welcome?
What I mean is: suppose I'm running a game and some guy is making lewd suggestions regarding a woman's PC all the time (or one of the other "typical" behaviours that people talk about which would make women feel unwelcome/uncomfortable/bored-to-tears/whatever) - would you prefer I approach it from a "don't be a juvenile jerk" perspective or a "don't be a sexist jerk" perspective?
The latter is presumably more likely to actually educate, but it seems to me it might also create pressure/unwanted attention of its own.
Say it either way you want... just SAY it.
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I have a question for women - do you want to be singled out for your gender, as in, the ad for the game says something like "Women welcome" or perhaps there's a code of conduct that says "Women will be treated with respect", or would you prefer that the prospective gender of the players is not addressed in anyway?
To be honest, if I wandered into the local game shop looking for a game and saw a note on the ad saying "Women will be treated with respect" I would avoid that game like the plague. Because the fact that they have to flag it up implies that the current players would see me as "woman" first and "gamer" second.
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I'm unclear as to why anyone would think that men's opinions on women in gaming groups are relevant or needed.
Maybe you should take that up with the OP. She's the one who asked us.
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I have a question for women - do you want to be singled out for your gender, as in, the ad for the game says something like "Women welcome" or perhaps there's a code of conduct that says "Women will be treated with respect", or would you prefer that the prospective gender of the players is not addressed in anyway?Personally, unless maybe the event is specifically aimed at women (e.g., Raygun Lounge's women's game night), I'd rather see a more general variant on "All gamers are welcome" and a code of conduct statement about not tolerating harassment or "harassment based on X, Y, Z."Do you think this should spill over into how a man should deal with behaviour which isn't making women feel welcome?
What I mean is: suppose I'm running a game and some guy is making lewd suggestions regarding a woman's PC all the time (or one of the other "typical" behaviours that people talk about which would make women feel unwelcome/uncomfortable/bored-to-tears/whatever) - would you prefer I approach it from a "don't be a juvenile jerk" perspective or a "don't be a sexist jerk" perspective?
The latter is presumably more likely to actually educate, but it seems to me it might also create pressure/unwanted attention of its own.
I've found it works best, face to face, not to put it on the women in the group, and to make it as swift as possible.
If you're witnessing sexist behavior, don't tell them to stop it because it's making the women uncomfortable. Tell them to stop it because it's making you uncomfortable. And do it in a way that causes the person who's doing it to lose as little face as possible.
E.g. "Hey, man, let's not do those sort of jokes here, okay?" and then immediately move on to another subject so he's not even required to respond. If he has to sit there while everyone stares at him, or if he feels like he's expected to give a response acknowledging that what he did was wrong and he won't do it again, he's likely to double down/get belligerent, since no one likes being embarrassed.
If, on the other hand, no response is required from him, so he doesn't have to apologize or acknowledge he was in the wrong--he just gets a notification that that sort of humor/behavior/whatever makes other people at the table uncomfortable and there's no pressure on him to react, he can just... stop making the comments/jokes without any admissions/shame/etc.
Obviously, this only works for relatively minor behaviors like jokes/comments, and not for things like groping/sustained harassment, but those relatively minor behaviors are more common, and sometimes if the group cuts them off as soon as they start, it doesn't get to the more serious ones.
It also avoids making the woman/women in the group into the Bad Guy--too often the people who are already under stress/pressure because they're the target of harassing behavior are put on the spot to also be the ones to call a halt to it and be the primary person to deal with any fallout from it. And there's no reason that that has to be the case--people who are in a less vulnerable position can take on/distribute some of that work.
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To be honest, if I wandered into the local game shop looking for a game and saw a note on the ad saying "Women will be treated with respect" I would avoid that game like the plague. Because the fact that they have to flag it up implies that the current players would see me as "woman" first and "gamer" second.
I've been hesitant in posting to this thread as I don't consider myself as part of the "girls in gaming groups", but I'm sometimes viewed as that by others, and, for what it's worth, I couldn't agree more with this.
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From what I've seen, women approach the game differently than men. Men often jump right in with confidence that they can learn all the rules, while women have more trepidation and/or want to dip their toes into PF, rather than learning all the pages and pages of rules. Sometimes the GM's instinct---and I have been guilty of this---is to chastise a player for not speaking up. "You didn't talk, so you can't make the diplomacy check." In general a better solution would be to figure out a way to include the player and have her be more involved. Though, really, this advice could apply to any player less apt to speak at the table.
I found this to be 100% accurate for my wife. She's always worried about making mistakes, let it be rolling the wrong dice, or "doing the wrong thing". The thing is she is an *AMAZING* roleplayer, and we all want her to play. So we told her that there's no wrong questions, always ask, and don't worry about making mistakes. Just say what you want to do and the party and DM will figure out how to do it. The rules are just the means, not the end, after all. Now I think this is more to the fact that she's not mathematically inclined and doesn't get enjoyment out of learning the fine details of the rules then any gender thing. I'd say the same thing to anyone regardless of their gender if they don't want to deal with the minutia of the rules.
I had this problem with my last group, until I finally sat down and talked with the GM. He revealed he had been taught that the old idea women must be protected was sexist, so he wasn't helping me in this context because he thought I could protect myself. I finally had to explain to him that what was sexist is protecting me more than he would any man. Protect me the same amount and it's fine. The problem player was ejected the next week and he...
I have been lucky that the only people invited to the games I play with my wife don't have that attitude. The only thing I was very careful about was not favoring - or overly disfavoring - her when I was DMing. The only time I admitting to favoring her is when - in character and in RL - she was brought to tears when a beloved NPC was on deaths door due to story and plot reasons. I was going to kill him off, but due to her efforts I let the party keep him alive and perform quests to cure/heal him. It made the story better, and I didn't have to sleep on the couch.
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To be honest, if I wandered into the local game shop looking for a game and saw a note on the ad saying "Women will be treated with respect" I would avoid that game like the plague. Because the fact that they have to flag it up implies that the current players would see me as "woman" first and "gamer" second.I've been hesitant in posting to this thread as I don't consider myself as part of the "girls in gaming groups", but I'm sometimes viewed as that by others, and, for what it's worth, I couldn't agree more with this.
I think a sign worded in that way would be dangerous, but I don't view the LGBT safe space triangle as conveying that same message. To me that indicates to both members of that group and others that their is an expectation that you should not be treated in a discriminatory fashion by the business or its other customers, and that should you feel that you are, the propitiator would like to know and redress your concern.
So a statement from the proprietor that their gaming store was humanist, that no individual in their store should expect to be discriminated against or treated less than any other human, shouldn't be a warning to avoid, but a place to embrace.
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Well, except that some MRA types have started using "humanist" as a way of saying "We're the ones who are REALLY in favor of equality, not those fake feminists", so I'd like to know exactly what such a statement is supposed to mean.
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Well, except that some MRA types have started using "humanist" as a way of saying "We're the ones who are REALLY in favor of equality, not those fake feminists", so I'd like to know exactly what such a statement is supposed to mean.
Yup. The whole "humanist/egalitarian" response to feminism is generally used, these days, to protect a biased status quo. Actually being a humanist or an egalitarian is a good thing, just as caring about men's rights is a good thing. Unfortunately, just as "Men's Rights Activist" has been coopted by men who see rights as a zero sum game, and therefore advocate for attempting to lessen women's rights (and legalize rape, etc.), "egalitarian/humanist" has been coopted by men who argue that women are already treated as equal to men and any efforts to improve the treatment of women are unnecessary or harmful.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Well, except that some MRA types have started using "humanist" as a way of saying "We're the ones who are REALLY in favor of equality, not those fake feminists", so I'd like to know exactly what such a statement is supposed to mean.Yup. The whole "humanist/egalitarian" response to feminism is generally used, these days, to protect a biased status quo. Actually being a humanist or an egalitarian is a good thing, just as caring about men's rights is a good thing. Unfortunately, just as "Men's Rights Activist" has been coopted by men who see rights as a zero sum game, and therefore advocate for attempting to lessen women's rights (and legalize rape, etc.), "egalitarian/humanist" has been coopted by men who argue that women are already treated as equal to men and any efforts to improve the treatment of women are unnecessary or harmful.
Almost makes me want to start a new term (maybe something like "True Humanists" if it's not already taken) to indicate "We're into equal treatment of everybody and also recognize we're not there yet and change needs to happen to get there".
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I've played with groups that have averaged half female since 1980. The women learned the rules pretty much with the same alacrity as the men did. If you see hesitation on the part of new female players, it's most likely due to the fact that they may be a minority or a single female entering an all male environment, much like the wife stuck with her husband and his football friends on Super Bowl Night.
And I've seen men who've had trepidation in learning something new, especially when playing among grizzled veterans. Context and the type of group shape a lot of the initial learning experience.
The most surprising experience I've had was when a gamer brought his aged Chinese parents to the gaming table, between them we're talking about 140-160 years of age. For them their first experience was in playing the Second We Be Goblins! module. I've yet to see two people jump into it more like fish into water.