I don't know of a way to intentionally lower your own armor class, though perhaps one could argue that you could forgo Dodge bonuses and take an effective Dex of 0 (-5 Dex to AC), but I don't have any precedence to base that on.
As a side note, unless your rogue is wearing no armor, your whip cannot deal damage to him, unless I'm missing something here.
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It's probably a lot simpler to take the Familiar Arcana and have your Familiar deliver the buffs.
I imagine that in heated combat, the best they can do is try to dodge into your attack, which is essentially the same as having a dex score of 0. Their armor and magical equipment still try to turn your blow to the side. So they will effectively lose their dex bonus against you and take an additional -5. Basically you should only miss if somebody in your party has a huge AC that doesn't rely on dex at all.
It's probably a lot simpler to take the Familiar Arcana and have your Familiar deliver the buffs.Indeed, but whipping your allies to buff them is thematically way cooler.
Agreed. :)
Because the class ability spellstrike allows you to deliver a spell with a weapon attack, not a touch attack. And no matter how willing your ally is, armor and magic items and bad luck can make you miss.
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Is there a rule somewhere stating that touch attacks specifically don't require an attack roll when touching allies, whereas other attacks do?
Because, for the same reasons, a touch attack has a chance of failure as well.
For example, my 5th level Wizard has a total melee touch bonus of +0 (BAB +2 and Str -2). Touching the Rogue with an 18 Dex and Dodge means I'll fail 70% of the time.
Yes, spellstrike. Magus class ability. That is what we are discussing.
I think the point is the OP wants to use the whip to get 15ft range on the touch buff.
For the record if you voluntarily lower spell res, it lasts until your next turn. I.e for all spells not just beneficial ones. I would expect the same for lowering defences.
Yes, spellstrike. Magus class ability. That is what we are discussing.-_-
And spellstriking with a whip to buff your ally should not require an attack roll, right?
It absolutely should require an attack roll. As per the description of spellstrike, which I recommend you read.
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It absolutely should require an attack roll. As per the description of spellstrike, which I recommend you read.Yes, spellstrike. Magus class ability. That is what we are discussing.-_-
And spellstriking with a whip to buff your ally should not require an attack roll, right?
Carl, I think the description of touch spells should overrule it.
Spellstrike: generalTouch spells: specific
Make an attack to hit an enemy
No attack needed to hit an ally
Check out the feat Channel Ray from the Ranged Tactics Toolbox for an explicit reference to this kind of thing:
Channel Ray
You can focus your channeled energy on a single target.
Prerequisite: Channel energy class feature.
Benefit: When you channel energy, you can project a ray from your holy symbol instead of creating a burst. You must succeed at a ranged touch attack to hit an unwilling target; your target is then affected by the channeled energy as normal and receives a saving throw. You need not make an attack roll to affect a willing creature with the ray. The ray has a range of 30 feet per channel energy die, and its save DC is increased by 2.
From the CRB:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.
for reference.
Once it ceases to be a touch attack the rule allowing you to automatically touch an ally no longer applies. As far as I'm aware there is no rule allowing you to auto-hit an ally with a normal melee attack. Most house rules use some variant of treat dex as 0.
EDIT: If it applied, touch spells would be the general rule, as the one that applies in default. Spell strike would be the specific and would tell you how it modified the general rules.
dragonhunterq took the words right out of my mouth.
You're quoting general rules without taking the spellstrike ability into context.
Dragonhunterq and CampinCarl are correct. If you use Spellstrike to deliver a touch spell then it can no longer be delivered using the Touch Attack rules.
I was thinking that you could use one of the new Shadowcraft Weapons for this. If your friends succeed in disbelieving that it is real then they only take 1 point of damage (which could be non-lethal for a whip).
Well it's also a whip, so unless you have a crapton of feats making whips deadly then you're probably not going to be doing a ton of damage anyways. At mid-high levels it's actually a pretty creative way to get good reach for touch spells.
Don't they auto-succeed if you tell them it isn't real?
Don't they auto-succeed if you tell them it isn't real?
No. If somebody is told an illusion is an illusion, they gain a +4 bonus on their saving throw to disbelieve it.
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
You'll have to scroll down a little.
Don't they auto-succeed if you tell them it isn't real?
I had the same thought, but I'm not sure.
Hmmm! wouldn't you say that the caster telling me it isn't real is proof?
A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw
EDIT: I'm going to take this elsewhere - it is probably a derail
Hmmm! wouldn't you say that the caster telling me it isn't real is proof?
A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw
If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Telling somebody something is not proof.
Edit: Agreed. We're getting off on a tangent.
And Shadowcraft Weapons aren't entirely illusion. They are quasi-real. So you probably have to make the save each round.
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Why would an attack roll be needed? It's your ally.
I've never had a GM require an attack roll to touch an ally with Bull's Strength (or any other touch range spell), so you shouldn't have GMs requiring you to roll to-hit with your spellstriking whip.
Is there a rule somewhere stating that touch attacks specifically don't require an attack roll when touching allies, whereas other attacks do?
Because, for the same reasons, a touch attack has a chance of failure as well.
For example, my 5th level Wizard has a total melee touch bonus of +0 (BAB +2 and Str -2). Touching the Rogue with an 18 Dex and Dodge means I'll fail 70% of the time.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
The character in question can cast his touch spell, move and deliver it without problem, but he want to use spell combat and spellstrike with a whip, so that, after delivering the spell, he can continue to attack enemies with the whip and benefit from the whip reach.
Spellstrike work only with attacks, not with delivering spells normally, so to use that combo he need to attack his ally.
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It absolutely should require an attack roll. As per the description of spellstrike, which I recommend you read.Yes, spellstrike. Magus class ability. That is what we are discussing.-_-
And spellstriking with a whip to buff your ally should not require an attack roll, right?
Carl, I think the description of touch spells should overrule it.
Spellstrike: general
Touch spells: specificMake an attack to hit an enemy
No attack needed to hit an allyCheck out the feat Channel Ray from the Ranged Tactics Toolbox for an explicit reference to this kind of thing:
Channel Ray
You can focus your channeled energy on a single target.
Prerequisite: Channel energy class feature.
Benefit: When you channel energy, you can project a ray from your holy symbol instead of creating a burst. You must succeed at a ranged touch attack to hit an unwilling target; your target is then affected by the channeled energy as normal and receives a saving throw. You need not make an attack roll to affect a willing creature with the ray. The ray has a range of 30 feet per channel energy die, and its save DC is increased by 2.From the CRB:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
You are wrong on multiple counts. The first and more important:
"Spellstrike: generalTouch spells: specific"
The right order:
Touch spell: CRB rule that pertain to the delivery of touch spells by all creatures. General rule.
Spellstrike: a class ability that modifies how touch spells are delivered, applies only to a class and a few archetypes outside it. that is the specific rule that override the general rule.
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It absolutely should require an attack roll. As per the description of spellstrike, which I recommend you read.Yes, spellstrike. Magus class ability. That is what we are discussing.-_-
And spellstriking with a whip to buff your ally should not require an attack roll, right?
Carl, I think the description of touch spells should overrule it.
Spellstrike: general
Touch spells: specificMake an attack to hit an enemy
No attack needed to hit an allyCheck out the feat Channel Ray from the Ranged Tactics Toolbox for an explicit reference to this kind of thing:
Channel Ray
You can focus your channeled energy on a single target.
Prerequisite: Channel energy class feature.
Benefit: When you channel energy, you can project a ray from your holy symbol instead of creating a burst. You must succeed at a ranged touch attack to hit an unwilling target; your target is then affected by the channeled energy as normal and receives a saving throw. You need not make an attack roll to affect a willing creature with the ray. The ray has a range of 30 feet per channel energy die, and its save DC is increased by 2.From the CRB:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.You are wrong on multiple counts. The first and more important:
"Spellstrike: general
Touch spells: specific"The right order:
Touch spell: CRB rule that pertain to the delivery of touch spells by all creatures. General rule....
You are, IMO, incorrect.
Spellstrike is specific, yes. To the delivery of attack touch spells, not non-attack touch spells.Spell Blending, CLW, spellstrike attack on undead, covered.
Spell Blending, CLW, spellstrike usage to deliver touych spel;l via weapon? Not covered, really, by spellstrike's rules, as Spellstriake's rules do not cover anything about delivbering non-attack touch spells.
Actually, since it is not covered by the rules of Spellstrike, it moves right into GM Fiat territory. Or just defaults back to normal touch spell in combat rules.
Seriously, are there any Magus spells that are touch buffs?
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You are, IMO, incorrect.
Spellstrike is specific, yes. To the delivery of attack touch spells, not non-attack touch spells.
Spell Blending, CLW, spellstrike attack on undead, covered.
Spell Blending, CLW, spellstrike usage to deliver touych spel;l via weapon? Not covered, really, by spellstrike's rules, as Spellstriake's rules do not cover anything about delivbering non-attack touch spells.Actually, since it is not covered by the rules of Spellstrike, it moves right into GM Fiat territory. Or just defaults back to normal touch spell in combat rules.
Seriously, are there any Magus spells that are touch buffs?
You know, reading the rules help:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.
"he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack." "If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell."
No wiggle room. Using spellstrike require a melee attack.
kinevon, you are incorrect. Spellstrike is for any spell with a range of touch, not just offensive spells.
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
Seriously, are there any Magus spells that are touch buffs?
Bull's strength, bear's endurance, etc.
BlurInvisibility
Spider climb
Displacement
Fly
Gaseous form
Water breathing
Stoneskin
To name a few.
You are, IMO, incorrect.
I beieve he is correct.
Spellstrike is specific, yes. To the delivery of attack touch spells, not non-attack touch spells.
Spell Blending, CLW, spellstrike attack on undead, covered.
Spell Blending, CLW, spellstrike usage to deliver touych spel;l via weapon? Not covered, really, by spellstrike's rules, as Spellstriake's rules do not cover anything about delivbering non-attack touch spells.Actually, since it is not covered by the rules of Spellstrike, it moves right into GM Fiat territory. Or just defaults back to normal touch spell in combat rules.
There are no in-game categories called "attack touch spells" or "non-attack touch spells." They are all just touch spells, and Spellstrike delivers them all "through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack." That's the only option given.
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. ...
And how are you getting CLW? Spell Blending only lets you select spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer list.
Seriously, are there any Magus spells that are touch buffs?
There are a few: Infernal Healing and Greater Infernal Healing, Ablative Barrier, Stoneskin, Vanish, Blur, Displacement, Invisibility, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, True Seeing, Jump, Spider Climb, Levitate, Fly, Teleport, Gaseous Form, and Water Breathing are all possibilities.
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And how are you getting CLW? Spell Blending only lets you select spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer list.
6th level magus and
Broad Study (Ex): The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class's spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components. The magus must be at least 6th level and must possess levels in at least one other spellcasting class before selecting this arcana.
Any spellcasting class.
It really work only if you use gestalt characters with high stats, but combos like a Inquisitor/Magus can reach monstrous levels of self buffing.
And how are you getting CLW? Spell Blending only lets you select spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer list.6th level magus and
Broad Study (Ex): The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class's spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components. The magus must be at least 6th level and must possess levels in at least one other spellcasting class before selecting this arcana.Any spellcasting class.
It really work only if you use gestalt characters with high stats, but combos like a Inquisitor/Magus can reach monstrous levels of self buffing.
Yes, of course, that would work. But he was citing Spell Blending. As far as I know there isn't any way to get CLW through Spell Blending.
Quoting Gisher because this needs emphasising, not because I disagree.
There are no in-game categories called "attack touch spells" or "non-attack touch spells." They are all just touch spells, and Spellstrike delivers them all "through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack." That's the only option given.
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. ...
(bolding moved by me)
Once it is part of a melee attack it is no longer a touch spell. You are using the normal melee attack rules not the touch spell rules.The distinction between attack touch spells and non-attack touch spells is irrelevant.
Apparently people are disregarding this FAQ, especially this line: Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
Apparently people are disregarding this FAQ, especially this line: Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
I'm not disregarding that sentence; I'm recognizing that it has a context.
If I cast Shocking Grasp and deliver it normally then I get to use the Touch Attack rules that let me ignore Shields and Armor. If I want to use Spellstrike to deliver it through my Scimitar then I have to deliver it as a Melee Attack (because the Spellstrike description says so) and now I can't ignore my target's Armor and Shield bonuses.
That definitely makes it more difficult to deliver the Touch Spell, which would contradict the FAQ if you take the quoted sentence as literally and universally true. Are you really suggesting that the FAQ means that Magi can always ignore Armor and Shield bonuses when using Spellstrike?
And I still see nothing that states I need an attack roll against my willing ally.
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
He can deliver it as part of a melee attack. He can not simply deliver it through his weapon with a touch, he must attack.
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And I still see nothing that states I need an attack roll against my willing ally.At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.He can deliver it as part of a melee attack. He can not simply deliver it through his weapon with a touch, he must attack.
On that, we don't disagree.
Requiring a roll to-hit is where we differ.
As per the description of spellstrike, which I recommend you read.
This sort of condescension is really uncalled for. Having played a Magus to 13th level in PFS, I've read the ability quite often. Playing that character helped me understand (and eventually teach) how the Magus mechanics work.
Just because someone disagrees with your interpretation of the rules doesn't mean they're ignorant.
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You automatically touch a friend =/= making a melee attack.
If you want to use sppellstrike you must make a melee attack.
An attack require you to roll a die and see if you hit the target.
The target can voluntarily reduce his dexterity/dodge bonus? Yes.
A canny opponent can benefit from that if he readies a action to attack when he do that? Yes. (Not really a problem unless you do this trick so often that it become common knowledge)
I never said nor meant to imply that you were ignorant. I only suggested that reading the rules (even if you had already read them previously) would help you to understand how they work.
If your ally is willing to be hit by you they can lower their effective dex against you. But armor and magical protection doesn't care if you want to get hit, it will still protect you.
What's the roll to hit a willing ally with a melee attack?
Full normal AC, by the rules. There are no rules in the normal melee attacks that allows you to auto hit an ally or hit a reduced AC. There are rules in the touch attack rules allowing you to auto hit an ally.
Most suggestions for houseruling hitting an ally who wants to be hit start with treating dex as 0.