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I know what your saying, I understand your stance.
Read the whole section of the rules in the PRD here
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Notice, the two sections are separate sections about weapons, one does not effect the other. The designation in the upper section is explained further in the lower, but the weapon itself doesn't change at all, it is how the character interacts with that weapon and the difference in size between the character and what the weapon was made for that dictates what the character can do with that weapon.
The feats in question never changes that, the character is just able to wield one (1) differently than normal. (Normally, a character needs to wield a Two Handed weapon with Two Hands)
I'm sorry. I'm not understanding what you're trying to point out with that.
What I'm able to take away is that there are two attributes to a weapon. It's "Handedness" quality and its "Size" quality.
Handedness refers to Light, One-Handed, and Two-handed.
Size refers to Small, Medium, Large.
And that the two don't directly affect each other.
This part,
"The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed."
reinforces the idea that the category of "Handedness" is separate from "Size" and that for every step in "Size" different from intended you are you move the "Handedness" accordingly.
So my understanding of what you showed is this.
There are 3 earthbreakers. Small, medium, and large. All are 2wh.
Normally a medium person could use a small earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon with a -2 penalty. A medium with no penalty as a 2HW. And couldn't wield the large one at all.
What the feat does is make 3 earthbreakers. Small, medium, and large. All are 1wh. I can now wield a small earthbreaker as a light weapon with a -2 penalty. A medium with no penalty as a 1HW. And a large one as a 2hw. Since the "Size" aspect is separate from the "Handedness"
But this did bring up a question. To you, is there any difference between wielding a small earthbreaker and a medium Warhammer besides the Inappropriately Sized Weapon penalty or damage?
EDIT: And how, if at all, is the small earthbreaker for someone without the feat different than a medium earthbreaker with the feat, besides the Inappropriately Sized Weapon penalty or damage?
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What the feat does is make 3 earthbreakers. Small, medium, and large. All are 1wh. I can now wield a small earthbreaker as a light weapon with a -2 penalty. A medium with no penalty as a 1HW. And a large one as a 2hw. Since the "Size" aspect is separate from the "Handedness"
This is where we part ways. The weapon is never itself a One Handed weapon. Using the weapon with one hand and having a One Handed weapon is not the same. The feat does not change the weapon at all, it imparts a skill to the character to use the weapon in a different way.
Just as the character doesn't change his own size, neither does the weapon change because of how the character can wield it beyond a normal means.
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A separate post, as I don't want to get some confused here.
A smaller Two Handed Weapon is considered a One Handed weapon already for the character (Small EB for a Medium Character), the feat does nothing for this either. (If it did, being a Light weapon would not make much of a difference, except the player is cheating himself out of being able to wield it with Two Hands)
What the feat does is make 3 earthbreakers. Small, medium, and large. All are 1wh. I can now wield a small earthbreaker as a light weapon with a -2 penalty. A medium with no penalty as a 1HW. And a large one as a 2hw. Since the "Size" aspect is separate from the "Handedness"This is where we part ways. The weapon is never itself a One Handed weapon. Using the weapon with one hand and having a One Handed weapon is not the same. The feat does not change the weapon at all, it imparts a skill to the character to use the weapon in a different way.
Just as the character doesn't change his own size, neither does the weapon change because of how the character can wield it beyond a normal means.
I understand you view things differently. We already know that "Size" doesn't do anything for "Handedness" and we both agree that the "Size" doesn't change. The thing being discussed is "Handedness," do you agree that that's the only thing we disagree on? So we need to determine how "Handedness" is determined and what if anything alters that.
Lets look at the rule you quoted.
"Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon."
So this is saying that a one-handed weapon is just, "a melee weapon that an appropriately sized character is wielding in combat is considered a one-handed weapon"
To me this is clearly stating that "Handedness" of a weapon is determined by the effort needed to wield in combat. The actual "Size" of the object and the "Size" of the wielder do nothing to this other than if you use one that inappropriately sized you alter up or down as needed for how you treat the weapon.
So I state that the handedness of a weapon is dependent on the effort the wielder is using to wield the weapon and isn't inherit to the weapon. Because if it was inherit to the weapon it wouldn't have the line I bolded, because that line is saying that a one-handed weapon is considered a one-handed weapon when wielded by the character. If it was always a one-handed weapon it wouldn't need to be "considered as".
So with that definition what do you say the feat does?
the character is just able to wield one differently than normal
the character learns how to effectively wieldthe weapon differently and the mechanical adjustments are related to One Handed effects that would result in that difference.
it is how the character interacts with that weapon and the difference in size between the character and what the weapon was made for that dictates what the character can do with that weapon.
These are stating that you agree the character is wielding the weapon differently than normal. And, as stated above, the effort needed by the character to wield the weapon is which type of "Handedness" the weapon is considered to be. So if it's only taking a one-handed amount of effort to wield, the weapon is considered a one-handed weapon. Which means it's considered exactly the same as a warhammer or longsword is which are both considered one-handed weapons by the wielder. And since how you're interacting with the earthbreaker dictates what you can do with that weapon, interacting with it as a one-handed dictates that you can do one-handed things with that weapon.
this stance is further supported in the inappropriately sized weapons.
"The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed."
Everywhere the rules explain "Handedness" they talk about how its measuring the level of effort that user takes to use the weapon. Yes weapons are listed with the attribute that states the effort the normal user would need to use the weapon. And you agree that "Handedness" can change if the weapon is smaller, even though the attribute of the weapon never changes, it's always a listed as a two-handed weapon.
A smaller Two Handed Weapon is considered a One Handed weapon already for the character
And I'm assuming you agree that since the weapon is considered a one handed weapon for the character they could wield 2 of them while 2wf.
And if we take a look at the feat.
You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.
So since you can use the Earth breaker as if it were a one-handed weapon you only need to use a one-handed amount of effort to wield it in combat, and since you only need one-handed amount of effort the weapon is considered a one-handed weapon for the user. See both the feat and small weapons are saying the same thing. A small 2hw is considered a one-handed weapon to a medium user. The weapon retains it's classification as a two-handed weapon, but since it takes less effort to use, the weapon is considered a one-handed weapon. Same with the feat. Since the weapon now takes less effort to wield because of your training, the weapon is considered a one-handed weapon, even though the weapon retains it's classification as a two-handed weapon.
So I restate that the handedness of a weapon is dependent on the effort the wielder is using to wield the weapon
Now you've said some things that seem to go against this statement.
the weapon itself has one of these designations (Light/One-Handed/Two-Handed) despite the character's skill in wielding the weapon differently than how it was made.
It is still a Two Handed Weapon no matter how the character Wields it.
See, I believe you are implying that even thought he wielder only needs a one-handed amount of effort to wield the weapon in combat, the weapon is still considered a two-handed weapon for the character. This is false as per the statement I made. Yes the weapon has an attribute of light, one-handed, or two-handed, but these are only to indicate the normal amount of effort needed to wield the weapon. Because as shown by smaller weapons, if it takes less effort to wield the weapon it is considered a different designation of "handedness" for the character. Your last quoted statement, if true, would mean that a two-handed small weapon would still be considered a two-handed weapon for a medium character since it wouldn't matter how the character was wielding the weapon. But you yourself have stated that to not be the case.
So clearly we see that "Handedness" comes from how the character is wielding the weapon and not from the weapon itself.
Now thaX, If you don't understand something, please ask for clarification before responding to this post. If you disagree with anything I have said please share what you disagree with and why you disagree with it, but please too share what points you agree with. Things are made much easier for the both of us if we can stop talking about things we both agree on and can focus in on what it is we're disagreeing about. If you share anything you disagree with, please share also why you disagree with it. It's much easier to discuss things if we're both on the same page.
Also, if you're disagreement isn't about how the rules work with this and you agree with all my statements, but that you feel the INTENT of the feat was to do something different than what the feat states and that that is why you view it the way you do please share that. Again it's best if we know what we're discussing as to actually be talking with each other and not passed each other.
I'm confused by what the point of the feat would be by Thax's view. For both doing dergar master and thunder and fang.
Both require two weapon fighting, are you suggesting that they can't be used in conjunction?
Am I misinterpreting your statement ?
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I don't agree that the character can use the weapon in a variety of ways that is beyond the scope of the feat.
Let me say this, I understand wanting to TWF with the Dorn Duarger feat with Reach weapons. My contention is if the feat was set to allow for two of the Two Handed Weapons to be used in concert, it would have said so and eluded to in both the description and the rules text.
The weapon, as it is being used as a One Handed Weapon, works best with a light weapon in the other hand.
In the Thunder and Fang feat, you are already fighting with the two mentioned weapons, a comma in place of a period would have done wonders for the rules interpretation of this feat.
The main point begin presented, by some here and on other threads, is that the "Handyness" of the weapon changes, that it is considered a One Handed Weapon for that character. This is simply not the case, wielding a weapon and what the weapon actually is are two different things. I will post this again, The weapon never changes.
If you put five square on a piece of paper, then five more below them, label one Measure of Effort and the other Character Size, and put on the wielding possibilities on that scale, you would see how to scale the weapon to the character. Those ten squares never change, they don't move, they do not add on addendums. The weapon is what it is, what one can do with it is the skill that can go beyond normal means of use.
The reason for the confusion is quite simple. This is an addition add on rule to the 3.0 system, one that introduced Weapon Size that not only cheesed off a lot of players at the time (Order of the Stick has a very funny strip about the halfling's reaction), it made the scale for the weapon complicated and treasure hording from small creatures useless, mostly.
I believe PF either shortened the passage, or cleaned it up.
Yes, you use One Handed effects when wielding the weapon with one hand, you also use Two Handed effects when wielding a One Handed weapon with two hands, something ANY character can do. The weapon doesn't change to a Two Handed weapon, it is how the character wields it that determines what happens with certain effects, such as Power Attack, Str damage and such. Still a One Handed Weapon, no feat makes it something else nor does the fact that the character is choosing to wield it Two Handed.
My point about the smaller Two Handed weapon is that if it went like you said, it would make that weapon a "Light" Weapon for the character, hence not being able to wield it with Two Hands. Obviously, that doesn't work either.
Unless there is a ruling out there specific for the Dorn Durgers, there is nothing, either inferred or stated, that allows for the wielding of Two (2) Two Handed Weapons to TWF with.
Yes, you use One Handed effects when wielding the weapon with one hand, you also use Two Handed effects when wielding a One Handed weapon with two hands, something ANY character can do. The weapon doesn't change to a Two Handed weapon, it is how the character wields it that determines what happens with certain effects, such as Power Attack, Str damage and such. Still a One Handed Weapon, no feat makes it something else nor does the fact that the character is choosing to wield it Two Handed.
thaX, you are incorrect here when you say that you are using two handed effects on a one-handed weapon. The ability to use a one-handed is already present in the rule block that delineates the abilities and limitations of one-handed weapons. You never "borrow" or "use" any part of the two-handed rules, the ability is in fact part of one-handed weapons.
A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half his Strength modifier if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength modifier to damage rolls made with that weapon.
So you might be able to understand my confusion over you saying that for this feat (DD Master) you are just "using" one-handed abilities on a two-handed weapon. That's not how the rules work, the definition is a single unit, you must be using one or the other and there is never any crossover. Even if a rule is using similar language or mechanics as another rule they are in fact two entirely separate rules that would continue doing exactly what they say if the other one ceased to exist.
The reason why I am saying that they switch categories is that the feat (along with faq's) clearly state that you are not using the two-handed weapon rule. Since the feat states that you are now using the weapon "as a one-handed weapon", that leaves only one other rule to use to govern that weapon's abilities, the one-handed weapon rule.
Another concern you seem to have is that using the one-handed weapon rule would reduce the damage die on the weapon in question (which i am taking from this quote:)
My main point is that the scale you refer to, the one that denotes the weapon as being a Two Handed Weapon, never moves or scales because of character skill. To do this would change the damage the weapon actually does (From 2d6 to 1d8 or similar)
This is not how damage dice on weapons are derived, they are simply stated on the weapon's description and there is not way to change it other than by changing the size of the weapon. Here is where that is defined:
Dmg: These columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit. The column labeled "Dmg (S)" is for Small weapons. The column labeled "Dmg (M)" is for Medium weapons. If two damage ranges are given in the same column, then the weapon is a double weapon. Use the second damage figure given for the double weapon's extra attack. Table 1–8: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage gives weapon damage values for Tiny and Large weapons.
As you can see from this rule the "handedness" of a weapon has no bearing on the damage die, only the weapon type and size of the weapon do.
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The damage would not change because of size, it would change because, as you maintain, if the weapon became a One Handed weapon, the damage would change as well. (From the Two Handed Weapon damage to what the weapon would do if it was One Handed)
What you would be saying is that the weapon either Shrinks or becomes something else.
So, tell me, when a feat says that you use a Two Handed weapon as a One Handed one, is there a difference between that and a character using a One Handed Weapon with Two Hands, using it as a Two Handed Weapon?
The One Handed Weapon tells of the same Two Handed effects as that of the (forced to use) Two Handed Weapons.
The difference between these two examples is one can be done normally and the other needs a feat for the character to do, outside of normal rules.
Why doesn't the One Handed Weapon change into a Two Handed Weapon just like you want the Two Handed Weapon to change to One Handed?
I will tell you why. It doesn't work that way. This is what I am trying to tell you.
Having gone through this in five different threads, two of which has gotten locked, I have looked at these rules, at how weapons are and what they do in the game. Since then, there has been two abilities that allow the wielding of an oversized Two Handed Weapon. A great relief for me, as the Titan Mauler gained the ability through errata, getting the ability he should have had since the beginning.
I keep thinking of the Halfling in the Order of the Stick comic, waiting for the awesome to happen for the change from 3.0 to 3.5, after seeing what changes did for his party members. His weapons shrunk.
Boy, was he cheesed...
thaX.
You seemed to have chosen to ignore my post. Which is fine, but that just means that I'm going to be done trying to discuss this with you as it seems you're not actually interested in an actual discussion of the matter where we seek for clarification of our understandings and what support lead us to make those understandings. Doing so though would stop it from feeling like hitting your head against a brick wall. I also suggest that you refrain from commenting on this subject until you are able to understand my post and see why I came up with the results I did. Then, figure out a way to explain your thoughts better and in your explanations, if you could reference the rules and explain how you got from the rules to the understanding you have. Cause right now you're seeming to just be saying a lot of crazy. Half the stuff you're posting seems to make no sense or seem completely random.
But I really want to clear something up beforehand.
If you made a greatsword a light weapon for a character the damage would still be 2d6. Only the physical size changing alters the damage done. Classifying it as a one-handed, light, or two-handed doesn't alter the damage at all.
We are saying that you now have a weapon that is under the one-handed heading of the weapon table that has all the same stats as the normal two-handed version.
Wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands doesn't make it a two-handed weapon because there's no rule saying that you treat it as or consider it as a two-handed weapon while doing so. AGAIN, A ONE-HANDED WEAPON ISN'T EVER CONSIDERED A TWO-HANDED WEAPON. But for the feats, we are giving the rule/permission to make the normally two-handed weapon a one-handed weapon for us.
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When you use the One Handed weapon with two hands, you are getting the same result as you would when you wield a Two Handed weapon. You get 1.5 str mod in damage, +3 damage for every -1 for Power Attack, and other things you would get for that.
This is the same situation with the feat. You are using the Two Handed weapon with One Hand. You get 1.0 str mod damage, +2 damage for every -1 for Power Attack, and so on....
My point, the one that we are crossing streams on, is that there is no difference between the two situations. The weapon never changed, the character use of it has.
The damage is always 2D6, I agree. I am confused as to why you want to change it. Let me explain. You want to change the weapon, make it into something that it is not. This would
- A. have it shrink to One Handed sized (making it do damage a step down)
- B. Make it into a completely different weapon.
Are you saying that the weapon changes without changing?
Look at the two sections again. Keep this in mind. The Character will stay his same size (Typically Medium) and the weapon will keep it's designation (Two Handed). The skill to which the character wields that weapon will not change this, it will only allow him to do what the feat says it will.
Use the Two Handed Weapon in One Hand. It is considered a One Handed weapon for effects as he is doing so, meaning Power Attack and so on. It is still a Two Handed weapon when it comes to trying to wield it differently or in different situations, making the "check" again for those situations.
Now, I am beginning to repeat myself and I can only say or explain this in a limited number of ways. Each time I get into this issue, I see another possible way to explain what the rules are and how they interact with one another. I thank you for giving me some thought on this, and that the One Handed weapon being used Two Handed is a good additional point I had previously missed.
I wonder if you would still consider the weapon "Light" when it is a Smaller version (Small weapon for a Medium creature) or if you would change it so that it is still considered One Handed for the creature, feat or not.
thaX, you are the only one here who is saying that you would have to change the size of the weapon to get the result we are talking about, neither i nor Chess Pwn have claimed that.
Here is what the feat is doing (as graphically as i can manage):
format: (object size)-(user size designed for)-(handedness)
Normal | D.D.M. Feat
L-L-2HW | L-L-1HW
M-M-2HW | M-M-1HW
S-S-2HW | S-S-1HW
This is what is happening with the feat, it is supported by the wording of the feat, the faq, and the general community of users. From here you can extrapolate based on the existing weapons rules.
If this does not make sense to you i suggest that it is stemming from your understanding (or lack thereof) of how declarative/atomic rules systems work.
I understand that the rules system is fluid and open to being changed by whatever GM happens to be running the game, and you can house rule this however you want, but you seem to be misunderstanding the basic logic of how the rules interact in this system.
In several of your statements you seem to be bringing up issues of optimization as support for your interpretation, as well as claiming that the rules are holdovers from older versions of DnD. Not only do neither of those have any place in a discussion of the current pathfinder rules system but they are also logical non sequiturs equivalent to saying "my computer is faster than yours because it has more RAM because its green".
thaX, Do you not read things I post?
When you use the One Handed weapon with two hands, you are getting the same result as you would when you wield a Two Handed weapon. You get 1.5 str mod in damage, +3 damage for every -1 for Power Attack, and other things you would get for that.
A ONE-HANDED WEAPON ISN'T EVER CONSIDERED A TWO-HANDED WEAPON.
The damage is always 2D6, I agree. I am confused as to why you want to change it. Let me explain. You want to change the weapon, make it into something that it is not
NO, no one is wanting to change the actual weapon at all. We always have said that NO PHYSICAL CHANGE is done to the weapon.
We are saying that you now have a weapon that is under the one-handed heading of the weapon table that has all the same stats as the normal two-handed version.
Are you saying that the weapon changes without changing?
Yes, that's EXACTLY what we've said. The effort needed to wield it goes down for you, so for you it's a one-handed weapon in always for everything instead of a two-handed weapon, so the weapon designation of light, one-handed, or two-handed changes, BUT NOTHING ELSE CHANGES.
Look at the two sections again. Keep this in mind. The Character will stay his same size (Typically Medium) and the weapon will keep it's designation (Two Handed). The skill to which the character wields that weapon will not change this
Use the Two Handed Weapon in One Hand. It is considered a One Handed weapon for effects as he is doing so, meaning Power Attack and so on. It is still a Two Handed weapon when it comes to trying to wield it differently or in different situations, making the "check" again for those situations."Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon."
"The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder)"So this is saying that a one-handed weapon is just, "a melee weapon that an appropriately sized character is wielding in combat is considered a one-handed weapon"
To me this is clearly stating that "Handedness" of a weapon is determined by the effort needed to wield in combat. The actual "Size" of the object and the "Size" of the wielder do nothing to this other than if you use one that inappropriately sized you alter up or down as needed for how you treat the weapon.
Where do you get the definition that wielding it as a one handed weapon is only for Power attack and not 2wf?
I wonder if you would still consider the weapon "Light" when it is a Smaller version (Small weapon for a Medium creature) or if you would change it so that it is still considered One Handed for the creature, feat or not.
There are 3 earthbreakers. Small, medium, and large. All are 2wh.
Normally a medium person could use a small earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon with a -2 penalty. A medium with no penalty as a 2HW. And couldn't wield the large one at all.
What the feat does is make 3 earthbreakers. Small, medium, and large. All are 1wh. [b]I can now wield a small earthbreaker as a light weapon with a -2 penalty.[/n] A medium with no penalty as a 1HW. And a large one as a 2hw.
Now, I am beginning to repeat myself and I can only say or explain this in a limited number of ways.
You're repeating yourself because you're not actually addressing anything people are saying but seeming to just spout out randomly things you believe. Neither are you showing that you're actually understanding what we are saying, since you repeatedly say we think things we've never said but have in fact said the opposite of. Nor are you actually explaining WHY you think that way. You've provided no rule support that when wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands it counts as a two-handed weapon, yet I could show you rules support as to why it's not. You've provided no rule support that treating a weapon as one-handed is only for Power attack and str and not for 2wf or inappropriately sized weapons, I've provided rules support as to why it affects all things.
Like I said
an actual discussion of the matter where we seek for clarification of our understandings and what support lead us to make those understandings. Doing so though would stop it from feeling like hitting your head against a brick wall.
If you don't address our points and show understanding we ask again.
If you say random stuff in response to our questions you'll say random stuff again.hitting.
brick wall.
over.
and.
over.
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I wonder if you would still consider the weapon "Light" when it is a Smaller version (Small weapon for a Medium creature) or if you would change it so that it is still considered One Handed for the creature, feat or not.
This is explicitly handled in the rules.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
It seems what is hanging you up on TWF when you can wield a THW in one hand is that you believe THW cannot be used for TWF, as a basic component of their definition as a THW. This isn't in the rules. If it is written down somewhere, please provide the source because it is not a limitation I am familiar with.
What is true is that ordinarily you cannot TWF with a THW. The reason for this is because ordinarily, both hands of effort are devoted to wielding the THW. This isn't the case we're talking about here. If you have an ability that allows you to one-hand a THW, you are no longer restricting the use of your second hand. Therefore, your other hand is free to do the exact same things your other hand would be free to do if you were wielding any other one-handed weapon. That includes wielding a second weapon that you are capable of wielding in one hand (which includes your ability to wield in one hand a weapon which ordinarily requires two hands).
Nobody wants to change any weapons here. The only thing that changes is the character's ability to wield that weapon, specifically, how many hands must be devoted to its use. That is the only thing that changes with regard to the weapon.
Wow...I'm lost. Can we start again, with easier to follow explanations?
Sorry Murdock, we were having to jump around because of thaX's... method of debating.
Which parts did you want explained?
Alright I see What Thax is saying clearly now, he is simply wrong.
The dorn dergar feat absolutely will let you use two dorn dergars (albeit at the higher penalty for using two one handed weapons) in two weapon fighting.
Is your ruling specific to this feat and these two weapons, or is it more general?
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Wow...I'm lost. Can we start again, with easier to follow explanations?Sorry Murdock, we were having to jump around because of thaX's... method of debating.
Which parts did you want explained?
What is the current issue/question and where are the specific areas of dispute?
Seems like the responses are scattered and may be disputing things not actually in conflict.
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Basically, there is a feat (Thunder and Fang, Dorn Derger and others) that has the character use a Two Handed Weapon (Specific or general) with One Hand.
The conflict is that the feats in question does just that, allow for one Two Handed Weapon to be used in One hand, typically TWF with a Light weapon in the other hand.
The want is for the allowance to wield two of the Two Handed weapons at the same time, or to wield a larger one (Large weapon for a Medium Creature, for example) with two hands. The feats in question do not explicitly allow this, nor were they meant to.
A few posting in this and other past threads believe that the weapon changes to a "One Handed Weapon" for that character, when in fact it is a Two Handed weapon being wielded with One Hand. The distinction is lost somehow in translation, though I have tried to explain it.
The weapon never changes. It does not lose or change it's own designation, it is, and will continue to be, a Two Handed Weapon.
So, continuing...
A faq here. Weapons. Two Handed in One Hand
Notice is says "...treat it as One Handed for the purpose of..." meaning that the weapon itself is still Two Handed while being used in in this way. It is used in a way not normally available for character, so just as a One Handed weapon is used as Two Handed and counts as such for the same abilities.
The measure of effort for the weapon never changes for the weapon, and the character needs to wield the weapon to determine how it is used in a particular circumstance. Whether or not the character can wield a Two Handed weapon with One Hand does not change the designation of that weapon, just the way the character can use the weapon with the skill/ability he gains with the feat. It keeps getting pointed out to me in various ways that the Measure of Effort can somehow be changed or adjusted for that character. This is going off of size differences of Inappropriately sized weapons and how the character can wield smaller or larger weapons. The weapon itself stays the same, it is the character's size compared to the weapon size that determines how the weapon can be wielded normally. The feats in question never changes this, it just allows a normal sized weapon to be used in a way beyond normal measure.
The confusion is that the phrasing of the feats treats the weapons as One Handed, or used as One Handed, seems to beget the want to use the feats for more than the initial purpose of the feat. The first thing that is done is the adjustment to the weapon as if on a sliding scale, discounting the fact that the weapon designations stay the same as they are on the weapon charts. (Bastard swords and the like having some particulars that go beyond normal)
The main reason that a lot of the later feats that do this say "One Handed" is to have the wielder use one handed effects as they wield the weapon in that way, for Power Attack and the like, as the FAQ above. Thunder and Fang, for example, had the feat first written to use an Earth breaker and a Klar as a combined "Double Weapon" instead of a separate Two Handed Weapon and a Klar (Shield or One Handed weapon, depending on how it was used in the round) while still getting the Shield bonus from the Klar. In this phrasing, players were still applying 1.5 str mod damage and using power attack at the higher damage when doing this. The phrasing in a later source was changed to One Handed Weapon with Klar type of thing, which stopped the abuse of the higher damage for One Handed use, but made this issue crop up instead.
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"You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon."
This isn't saying you can use it with one hand. It's saying you use it as a one handed weapon. Just as you would a small earth breaker.
A smaller Two Handed Weapon is considered a One Handed weapon
A small earthbreaker is normally considered as a one handed weapon.
The feat makes a medium earthbreaker considered as a one handed weapon.|
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Bastard Sword: Normally a two-handed weapon. The 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Bastard Sword' feat allows it to be used one-handed.
Dorn-Dergar: Normally a two-handed weapon. The 'Dorn-Dergar Master' feat allows it to be used one-handed.
Earth breaker: Normally a two-handed weapon. The 'Thunder and Fang' feat allows it to be used one-handed in conjunction with a klar in the other hand.
Some argue that 'Thunder and Fang' does not require the use of a klar in the other hand. I don't read it that way and it seems clear that it was not the intent. Thus, I wouldn't allow a dual earth breaker build unless the character had more than two arms. However, dual bastard swords, dual dorn-duergar, or bastard sword and dorn-duergar are certainly possible... at -4 penalty (with TWF feat) since neither weapon is light.
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"You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon."
This isn't saying you can use it with one hand. It's saying you use it as a one handed weapon. Just as you would a small earth breaker.
A smaller Two Handed Weapon is considered a One Handed weaponA small earthbreaker is normally considered as a one handed weapon.
The feat makes a medium earthbreaker considered as a one handed weapon.
"...as though..." "...treat is as..."
My point about the small weapon is if it worked as suggested, then it would not be a One Handed weapon for that character, it would be a Light weapon, thus not able to be used with Two Hands.
It doesn't work that way.
Look at the weapon chart. What is the weapon in question Designation? Light? One Handed? Two Handed?
Look at the Bastard Sword. It is a One Handed weapon that has some specific rules about its use.
Is there anything in this feat that says "you can use two of these Two Handed Weapons when Two Weapon Fighting" or "You can use an Oversized version of this weapon?" I don't see it, but others somehow do, between the lines, inside a period, or something. Wielding it with one hand does not change the weapon itself, it just allows the character to use it beyond a normal means.
What the weapon is never changes, it is the skill that the character has to wield it in a different way than normal that changes, not the weapon.
I have said my peace on this. Expect table variation, long arguments with GM/Players, and a solid "No" on doing this at a PFS table.
If you can wield a weapon in one hand, you can wield a similar weapon in your other hand.
Where is the rule that prohibits using your second hand to wield another weapon if you are only required to use one hand to wield the first weapon?
Also, note that the Dorn-Dergar feat says that you can wield it as a one-handed weapon, not that you must. You can still wield one in two hands, as a two-handed weapon, if you so choose.
Thunder and Fang says the same thing about Earth Breakers; you can wield them as one-handed weapons, not that you must.
Jotungrip, for instance, says that a Titan Mauler may wield an appropriately sized two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon, not that they must. And this one carries the appropriate sizing caveat.
Bastard Swords are already one-handed weapons, so there's no reason to think a person with the EWP feat cannot TWF with two BS.
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Bastard Sword: Normally a two-handed weapon. The 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Bastard Sword' feat allows it to be used one-handed.
Dorn-Dergar: Normally a two-handed weapon. The 'Dorn-Dergar Master' feat allows it to be used one-handed.
Earth breaker: Normally a two-handed weapon. The 'Thunder and Fang' feat allows it to be used one-handed in conjunction with a klar in the other hand.
Some argue that 'Thunder and Fang' does not require the use of a klar in the other hand. I don't read it that way and it seems clear that it was not the intent. Thus, I wouldn't allow a dual earth breaker build unless the character had more than two arms. However, dual bastard swords, dual dorn-duergar, or bastard sword and dorn-duergar are certainly possible... at -4 penalty (with TWF feat) since neither weapon is light.
If you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), then you can use it in the off hand, as it would be a One Handed Weapon. (As it is on the weapon chart)
Amiri uses an oversized Bastard Sword, having the Exotic Weapon Prof for it, and the negatives for wielding an oversized weapon go away when she rages. (not sure about the 1st level build, I played her at 4th level recently)
This weapon has been used as an example for some in other threads, but the rules for that particular weapon (and others like it) is askew from the normal rules that other weapons have. While most One Handed weapons can be wielded with Two Hands by a character, the Bastard Sword can only be used with Two Hands if the character doesn't have the proficiency with it. This is slightly different than the situations resulting from the feats in question, which allow the normally Two Handed weapon to be used with One Hand.
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If you can wield a weapon in one hand, you can wield a similar weapon in your other hand.
Where is the rule that prohibits using your second hand to wield another weapon if you are only required to use one hand to wield the first weapon?
The fact that you can only wield a Light or One Handed weapon in you off hand.
Amiri's penalties for oversized weapons don't go away when she rages; it's just that her raging makes up for it.
The fact that you can only wield a Light or One Handed weapon in you off hand.If you can wield a weapon in one hand, you can wield a similar weapon in your other hand.
Where is the rule that prohibits using your second hand to wield another weapon if you are only required to use one hand to wield the first weapon?
So the fact that you can wield a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon is good enough to wield it in one hand but not good enough to wield it in one hand in your other hand?
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Bastard Sword: Normally a two-handed weapon. The 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Bastard Sword' feat allows it to be used one-handed.
You have this one backwards.
Bastard Swords are one-handed Exotic Weapons with a special rule that allows those without the exotic proficiency and with martial weapon proficiency to wield them as two-handed weapons instead of improvised weapons (as you'd normally do if wielding weapons you aren't proficient in).
Rest of the topic is still beyond me, but this bit needed clarification.
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So the fact that you can wield a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon is good enough to wield it in one hand but not good enough to wield it in one hand in your other hand?The fact that you can only wield a Light or One Handed weapon in you off hand.If you can wield a weapon in one hand, you can wield a similar weapon in your other hand.
Where is the rule that prohibits using your second hand to wield another weapon if you are only required to use one hand to wield the first weapon?
Wield it in you main hand, but not a second one in the off hand. Two handed weapons need a main hand to wield it.
So the fact that you can wield a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon is good enough to wield it in one hand but not good enough to wield it in one hand in your other hand?The fact that you can only wield a Light or One Handed weapon in you off hand.If you can wield a weapon in one hand, you can wield a similar weapon in your other hand.
Where is the rule that prohibits using your second hand to wield another weapon if you are only required to use one hand to wield the first weapon?
Wield it in you main hand, but not a second one in the off hand. Two handed weapons need a main hand to wield it.
But you're wielding it as a one-handed weapon. One-handed weapons don't need a main hand to wield.
That the weapon is always categorized as a two-handed weapon for every purpose except how to wield it never changes has absolutely no impact on how a person who is allowed to wield such a weapon as a one-handed weapon can actually wield it.
When an ability says you get to wield something as a one-handed weapon, that means in every capacity that a one-handed weapon is wielded. Specofic trumps general. Wield as a one-handed weapon literally means "when figuring out how you can wield this, pretend it's a one-handed weapon; if you can do it with a one-handed weapon, you can now do that with this weapon." There's no other logical way to understand that.
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It doesn't mean that when you do the opposite with the One Handed weapon (Wielding it Two Handed)
You can wield a Two Handed weapon (the two feats are specific on which Two Handed weapon can be wielded in this way) with One Hand.
That is great, we agree with this one point.
The point where we part ways is calling it One Handed for every purposed for that character. It still isn't a One Handed weapon when he had an oversized one, trying to wield it with Two Hands. It isn't a Light weapon when it is a size lower than the character. It still needs to be wielded with the character's Main Hand (One or Two Handed) because the weapon is still a Two Handed Weapon, despite what the character himself can do with it.
The only time the weapon changes designation is when the size of the weapon defers from the character own size. The Weapon starts as it is, a two handed weapon, and the measure of effort is adjusted from there.
The feats in question allows for the character to ignore the chart completely and wield the sucker with one hand.
That is all it does.
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While most One Handed weapons can be wielded with Two Hands by a character, the Bastard Sword can only be used with Two Hands if the character doesn't have the proficiency with it. This is slightly different than the situations resulting from the feats in question, which allow the normally Two Handed weapon to be used with One Hand.
You have this one backwards.
Bastard Swords are one-handed Exotic Weapons with a special rule that allows those without the exotic proficiency and with martial weapon proficiency to wield them as two-handed weapons instead of improvised weapons (as you'd normally do if wielding weapons you aren't proficient in).
Distinctions without a difference.
Without the 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Bastard Sword' feat the weapon can only be wielded with two hands (regardless of whether a non-proficiency penalty is also applied). With the feat it can be wielded with one hand. That exactly parallels the situation with the 'Dorn-duergar Master' feat and weapon or 'Thunder and Fang' and the Earth breaker (if we ignore the klar side issue).
In all three cases you have weapons which can normally only be wielded two handed by characters of their intended size, and a particular feat which allows them to be used one handed.
It doesn't mean that when you do the opposite with the One Handed weapon (Wielding it Two Handed)
You can wield a Two Handed weapon (the two feats are specific on which Two Handed weapon can be wielded in this way) with One Hand.
That is great, we agree with this one point.
The point where we part ways is calling it One Handed for every purposed for that character. It still isn't a One Handed weapon when he had an oversized one, trying to wield it with Two Hands. It isn't a Light weapon when it is a size lower than the character. It still needs to be wielded with the character's Main Hand (One or Two Handed) because the weapon is still a Two Handed Weapon, despite what the character himself can do with it.
The only time the weapon changes designation is when the size of the weapon defers from the character own size. The Weapon starts as it is, a two handed weapon, and the measure of effort is adjusted from there.
The feats in question allows for the character to ignore the chart completely and wield the sucker with one hand.
That is all it does.
These feats do one thing and one thing only: They change how you can wield a weapon. Everything else about the weapon is the exact same as before. The only thing that changes is you treat it like a one-handed weapon when determining how you can wield it. You can wield one-handed weapons in either your main hand or your off-hand or both. Thus, you can do the same with a THW being treated like a OHW. It really is as simple as that.
You are ignoring the rule that says, with one of these feats, you can treat the relevant weapon like a OHW for the purpose of wielding it.
Also note, nobody has ever said it's treated like a one-handed weapon for any purpose other than wielding. I've been clear on that, as have other posters. I'm not sure where you got that idea.
The Dorn-Dergar feat doesn't say "You can wield [this two-handed weapon] in one hand". It says, specifically, "You can use [this two-handed weapon] as a one-handed weapon." All that means is it changes how the weapon can be wielded.
Also, where does it say you need a main hand to wield a two-handed weapon? I'm not familiar with that rule.
Another name for "bastard sword" is "hand and a half sword". Perhaps there's a reason for that.
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The FAQ you list goes off the fact that the weapon can only be used in Two Hands without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
Which is exactly what I was attempting to establish.
It is a One Handed Weapon in the Weapons chart. (Go ahead, look at it)
True... but never disputed and entirely irrelevant to my point.
Maybe another FAQ will help;
The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.
For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.
For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.
The bastard sword is a one handed weapon. The dorn-duergar is a two handed weapon. However, each CAN be wielded either one or two handed under different circumstances... and when they are they are treated as either one or two handed weapons depending on how they are being used. A two handed weapon that you are somehow able to wield in one hand is then subject to all the usual combat rules for a one handed weapon while still retaining all the size/material rules of a two handed weapon.
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You have this one backwards.
Bastard Swords are one-handed Exotic Weapons with a special rule that allows those without the exotic proficiency and with martial weapon proficiency to wield them as two-handed weapons instead of improvised weapons (as you'd normally do if wielding weapons you aren't proficient in).
Distinctions without a difference.
Actually, there is one pretty big difference. Minor differences too.
If the weapon is two-handed, the a Large version can't be wielded by a medium creature without special rules. See oversized weapons.
Amiri can wield the Large bastard sword only because it's an exotic one-handed weapon normally. If it were a martial two-handed weapon with a special rule to allow one-handed exotic, it would still be ineligible for oversizing due to the oversized weapon rules.
For minor differences.
Exotic weapons require a DC 18 craft check to make, while martial weapons require a DC 15. So a bastard sword being an exotic weapon matters for crafting.
Another minor difference is in regard to gaining proficiency, as unless the class has access to "all martial weapons" the only way to attain proficiency is with the exotic weapon feat. Depending on how your character obtains weapon access, this alone can matter because there isn't a martial weapon proficiency (bastard sword).
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It doesn't mean that when you do the opposite with the One Handed weapon (Wielding it Two Handed)
You can wield a Two Handed weapon (the two feats are specific on which Two Handed weapon can be wielded in this way) with One Hand.
That is great, we agree with this one point.
The point where we part ways is calling it One Handed for every purposed for that character. It still isn't a One Handed weapon when he had an oversized one, trying to wield it with Two Hands. It isn't a Light weapon when it is a size lower than the character. It still needs to be wielded with the character's Main Hand (One or Two Handed) because the weapon is still a Two Handed Weapon, despite what the character himself can do with it.
The only time the weapon changes designation is when the size of the weapon defers from the character own size. The Weapon starts as it is, a two handed weapon, and the measure of effort is adjusted from there.
The feats in question allows for the character to ignore the chart completely and wield the sucker with one hand.
That is all it does.
nobody has ever said it's treated like a one-handed weapon for any purpose other than wielding. I've been clear on that, as have other posters. I'm not sure where you got that idea.
Yes, you are.
You are saying exactly that, otherwise you would not try to wield two of them or an oversized one.
Look at the quoted faq above my post. How the Bastard Sword (and Dwarven Waraxe) is wielded determines what the character does with it. This doesn't change for any One Handed Swords nor for any Two Handed Weapons that can be wielded differently with the use of a feat. The difference between them is that the Bastard Sword has a particular rule set that goes against the normal rules, as does the feat. The character can only use the Bastard Sword with Two Hands if they do not have the Exotic Weapon Prof.
That they used the same kind of wording as the feats in question in the FAQ doesn't change the weapon chart.
Is it a Two Handed Weapon? Yes? Then nothing is going to change that for that weapon. The only thing that would change the designation for that weapon for a character is if it is of an Inappropriate Size for the character. The feat only changes how it is wielded, not the weapon itself.
As for the Main/Primary hand and Off Hand, it is mentioned in the Two Weapon Fighting feats, and in a couple of faq's about this and Armor Spikes and other things. "Unwritten rule" or not, the main fact to consider is that a Two Handed Weapon can not be used in the off hand when TWF, one needs a One Handed or Light weapon in that hand. Being able to wield one (1) Two Handed weapon with one hand does not change what can be wielded in the off hand.
This goes on, not just this thread, this web site, a particular conversation, blog, or another communication bridge. The rules say what can be done and how to effect what doing a particular will do for a given situation. Weapons, for the most part, lost some clarification between editions when the changeover from 2nd ed to 3rd ed happened. The size rules were inserted in the 3.5 "fix" a little over a year after the original release. From this point forward, players have tried to use designations with a mistaken adjustment from the Inappropriate weapons section to do all manner of silly things. (I still get an errant complaint about PF not translating the Spiked Chain properly, taking away a rules loophole for an infinite trip and AoO combo)
Expect Table Variation, don't expect to wield two Two Handed Weapons in PFS anytime soon, and get the Titan Fighter for the Oversized wielding of one.
Amiri's Large Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon for the Frost Giant she took it from. For her, it's a two-handed weapon. From her character description in the Community Use Package "Pathfinder Society Pre-generated Characters": "The sword Amiri carries is difficult for her to wield because it was created to be swung by a giant. She takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls with the sword (this is already calculated into her attack bonus). Though a bastard sword can normally be wielded in one hand, Amiri must use two hands because the sword is sized for a Large creature. The sword deals 2d8 points of damage because of its Large size."
The weapon listing in her stat block (at level 1) is "Large bastard sword +3 (2d8+6/19–20)" She does have "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)" and there's a note that the effects of this are already factored into her stats. So let's see...
Attack bonus at level 1 is BAB+STR+SIZE=1+4 (18 Strength)-2 (Large Weapon)=3. Yep, that checks, the -4 non-proficiency penalty doesn't apply because she has Exotic Weapon Proficiency*. Damage works out to 2d8 (Large Weapon where the Medium version does 1d10)+1.5x3=4.5, rounded down to 4. The stat block says +6, though. Not sure where the extra +2 comes from.
* Not sure why she'd need this, since the description of the weapon says "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."
I would be very surprised if Amiri could wield two of these things, with or without "Two Weapon Fighting".
Real world note: The off hand is almost always weaker than the primary hand. Even if Amiri could wield her sword in just her primary hand, that doesn't mean she could wield it in her off hand. After all, it's still a Large weapon, which would make it about 12 pounds as opposed to 6 and about 8 feet long as opposed to 4 (Frost Giants stand about 12 feet tall, so an 8 foot weapon would not be out of line), although in illustrations, Amiri's sword looks to be about six feet long. And yeah, I know that real world considerations might not apply, there being about a million places where the rules ignore them, but I haven't see anything that suggests to me that we should do that here.
Real world note: The off hand is almost always weaker than the primary hand. Even if Amiri could wield her sword in just her primary hand, that doesn't mean she could wield it in her off hand. After all, it's still a Large weapon, which would make it about 12 pounds as opposed to 6 and about 8 feet long as opposed to 4 (Frost Giants stand about 12 feet tall, so an 8 foot weapon would not be out of line), although in illustrations, Amiri's sword looks to be about six feet long. And yeah, I know that real world considerations might not apply, there being about a million places where the rules ignore them, but I haven't see anything that suggests to me that we should do that here.
The only place where main hand and off hand are mentioned in the rules is in the Two-Weapon fighting section of the combat page and the associated table showing the penalties involved (not sure about book page numbers). Due to the system pathfinder works on this means that they are not a consideration in any case that does not involve the two-weapon fighting rules.
nobody has ever said it's treated like a one-handed weapon for any purpose other than wielding. I've been clear on that, as have other posters. I'm not sure where you got that idea.
Yes, you are.
You are saying exactly that, otherwise you would not try to wield two of them or an oversized one.
Look at the quoted faq above my post. How the Bastard Sword (and Dwarven Waraxe) is wielded determines what the character does with it. This doesn't change for any One Handed Swords nor for any Two Handed Weapons that can be wielded differently with the use of a feat. The difference between them is that the Bastard Sword has a particular rule set that goes against the normal rules, as does the feat. The character can only use the Bastard Sword with Two Hands if they do not have the Exotic Weapon Prof.
That they used the same kind of wording as the feats in question in the FAQ doesn't change the weapon chart.
Is it a Two Handed Weapon? Yes? Then nothing is going to change that for that weapon. The only thing that would change the designation for that weapon for a character is if it is of an Inappropriate Size for the character. The feat only changes how it is wielded, not the weapon itself.
As for the Main/Primary hand and Off Hand, it is mentioned in the Two Weapon Fighting feats, and in a couple of faq's about this and Armor Spikes and other things. "Unwritten rule" or not, the main fact to consider is that a Two Handed Weapon can not be used in the off hand when TWF, one needs a One Handed or Light weapon in that hand. Being able to wield one (1) Two Handed weapon with one hand does not change what can be wielded in the off hand.
This goes on, not just this thread, this web site, a particular conversation, blog, or another communication bridge. The rules say what can be done and how to effect what doing a particular will do for a given situation. Weapons, for the most part, lost some clarification between editions when the changeover from 2nd ed to 3rd ed happened. The size rules were inserted in the 3.5 "fix" a little over a year after the original release. From this point forward, players have tried to use designations with a mistaken adjustment from the Inappropriate weapons section to do all manner of silly things. (I still get an errant complaint about PF not translating the Spiked Chain properly, taking away a rules loophole for an infinite trip and AoO combo)
Expect Table Variation, don't expect to wield two Two Handed Weapons in PFS anytime soon, and get the Titan Fighter for the Oversized wielding of one.
So ... what you're saying is that wielding a second weapon in your offhand is not some aspect of wielding a weapon. Because if you can wield a weapon as a one-handed weapon, you can wield that weapon in any manner that you can wield a one-handed weapon.
All these abilities do is alter the sole aspect of how one can wield a relevant weapon, you seem to agree with me on that. Considering that when you make use of the TWF ability you're "wield[ing] a second weapon in your off hand", I'm not sure where the problem is.
You treat the weapon as a one-handed weapon for anything related to wielding. That includes TWF. But wielding effort is the only thing about the weapon that changes. Every other aspect of the weapon stays the same. If you read that BS FAQ closely, you'll see what they're talking about when they say "everything else stays the same". I was heavily involved in all those discussions; questions that kept popping up were "what happens to the hit points of a bastard sword", "what's the craft DC", etc. if you didn't have the feat vs. if you did. The answer was, "Only how you wield it changes". Then people started asking questions about whether people with the feat would then be screwed out of using abilities like those in the Two-Handed Fighter archetype. So they released another FAQ that said, "Honestly, this isn't all that complicated. It's a one-handed weapon, but you need the feat to wield it that way. Otherwise, wield it like a two-handed weapon. If an ability requires you to wield one way or the other, use the classification (for wielding) that is most beneficial to whatever you're doing. For every other conceivable reason under the sun outside of things related to wielding the weapon, the classification of the weapon never changes."
Wielding a second weapon in your off hand is an aspect of wielding the weapon. Thus, it falls under exactly what we're talking about here.
To demonstrate how silly your interpretation is, an TWF attack sequence of Dorn-Dergar (wielded as a one-handed weapon) then Battle Axe is ok; a TWF attack sequence of Battle Axe then Dorn-Dergar is not. That's not how TWF works, though. The attacks are interchangeable, because you're wielding both weapons as one-handed weapons (even though the Dorn-Dergar's actual classification never changes).
The weapon listing in her stat block (at level 1) is "Large bastard sword +3 (2d8+6/19–20)" She does have "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)" and there's a note that the effects of this are already factored into her stats. So let's see...
Attack bonus at level 1 is BAB+STR+SIZE=1+4 (18 Strength)-2 (Large Weapon)=3. Yep, that checks, the -4 non-proficiency penalty doesn't apply because she has Exotic Weapon Proficiency*. Damage works out to 2d8 (Large Weapon where the Medium version does 1d10)+1.5x3=4.5, rounded down to 4. The stat block says +6, though. Not sure where the extra +2 comes from.
The extra +2 comes from wielding it in two hands. Her base strength is 18, which gives her a damage modifier of +6 for using what is effectively a two-handed weapon. You got that for your attack bonus. Think you accidentally used the attack bonus for your damage calculation, instead of her STR bonus.
The -4 non-proficiency penalty doesn't apply because if she didn't have EWP BS, she simply wouldn't be able to wield the Large BS at all. Without the EWP, a Large BS is functionally a large two-handed weapon, which is too large for a medium creature to wield. Since she has the EWP, she treats the BS as a large one-handed weapon; any medium creature can wield a large one-handed weapon in two hands, albeit with a penalty.
Similarly, a medium character without EWP BS cannot wield a BS in one hand, even with a -4 non-proficiency penalty. The easiest way to think about how the BS works when figuring out how to wield it is to treat it like a Greatsword if you do not have EWP with the weapon; if you do, treat it (again, for figuring out how you can wield it) like a Long Sword.
* Not sure why she'd need this, since the description of the weapon says "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."
As noted above, she absolutely needs the feat. Her particular weapon is too large for her, so she can only wield it as a two-handed weapon, which she in turn can only do if she can ordinarily wield a BS as a one-handed weapon.
I would be very surprised if Amiri could wield two of these things, with or without "Two Weapon Fighting".
She can't because she is required to use both hands to wield the too-large weapon. If it were a weapon appropriately sized for her, she could unquestionably TWF with two Bastard Swords because she wields them as one-handed weapons.
The extra +2 comes from wielding it in two hands. Her base strength is 18, which gives her a damage modifier of +6 for using what is effectively a two-handed weapon. You got that for your attack bonus. Think you accidentally used the attack bonus for your damage calculation, instead of her STR bonus.
I'm in a hurry, so I'll address just this point by asking if you can please show me the math. :-)
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Look at this way. The weapon on the crafter's bench is a Two Handed Weapon. When the character picks it up, he wields it as he can or wants to. (Two Handed, or One Handed with a feat) He sees a second weapon (the same as the one he is holding), and it is still a Two Handed weapon, even though he is wielding the first in One Hand.
Now, here is where we are inclined to disagree. Some look at the weapon as having changed because the Character is One Handing it's copy. It has not changed, nor will it change without some form of enchantment. wielding a Two Handed Weapon in an Off Hand is not possible, even with the feats in question. The rules do not support it, and the physics of the larger weapons being held by the weaker, less used hand has balance issues with spacial concerns that make for wielding a second weapon of this magnitude impossible.
The rules don't even consider the possibility. What would the penalties be for wielding two Two Handed Weapons and TWF with them? Another -4 on top of the penalties already imposed? We don't know, the game rules don't go into that possibility because it can't be done.
I have said it before. It is more likely that the character has a Light Weapon in the off-hand (Even provided for in Thunder and Fang feat) to offset penalties for TWF then it would for him to try to wield two big, heavy weapons.
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guys, if you haven't realized yet. There's no point in conversing with thaX on this matter. Now you're welcome to do so if you want to continue. I'd just really recommend you acknowledge that thaX probably isn't going to change is mind, nor is it likely, from previously in this thread ,that he'll accurately understand our view, and he probably wont be able to accurately describe why he has view so that you can understand how he came up with it.
Not a bash on anyone, just basically saying. Agree to disagree at this point or agree that there's no point but using time if you do continue.
The extra +2 comes from wielding it in two hands. Her base strength is 18, which gives her a damage modifier of +6 for using what is effectively a two-handed weapon. You got that for your attack bonus. Think you accidentally used the attack bonus for your damage calculation, instead of her STR bonus.I'm in a hurry, so I'll address just this point by asking if you can please show me the math. :-)
yes. 18 str is a +4 mod. times 1.5 for two handing = 6.