I'm making a Hobgoblin Unchained Rogue for a new campaign, in a homebrew setting. The build I'm using is Two-Weapon Fighting with whips. The character has high DEX, but otherwise fairly low ability scores. Using whips and TWF uses up quite a few feats, so I'll be fairly feat starved.
I'm considering making intimidation a significant part of the character, and I'd like advice on a couple of options. Which archetype would you suggest, Rake or Thug?
If I use Rake, the Bravo's Blade ability becomes my method of getting intimidate rolls without wasting an action. That lets me deal lethal damage, slightly reduced, and trade dice of sneak attack for bonuses to my intimidate roll.
When a rake hits an opponent and deals sneak attack damage, she can forgo 1d6 points of that damage and make a free Intimidate check to demoralize the foe. For every additional 1d6 points of sneak attack damage she forgoes, she receives a +5 circumstance bonus on this check.
This ability replaces trapfinding.
Rake’s Smile (Ex)
At 3rd level, a rake gains a +1 morale bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks. This bonus increases by +1 for every 3 levels beyond 3rd.
This ability replaces trap sense.
Enforcer
If I use Thug, I'll depend on Enforcer to get free intimidate checks. That's nonlethal damage, but longer duration, and at the cost of a feat. Also, I get to add Sickened on top of Shaken and Debilitating Injury.
Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round.
This ability replaces trapfinding.
Brutal Beating (Ex)
At 3rd level, whenever a thug deals sneak attack damage, she can choose to forgo 1d6 points of sneak attack damage to make the target sickened for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 her rogue level. This ability does not stack with itself—only the most recent duration applies.
This ability replaces trap sense.
The benefit of Thug+Enforcer is that you will almost always go straight to Frightened.
The benefit of Thug+Enforcer is that you will almost always go straight to Frightened.
It's definitely a tool in the toolbox! Having an enemy flee is sometimes great, sometimes terrible, and Thug+Enforcer seems like a great way to do it.
If the party comp supports it (two melee bros), a whip rogue with Gang Up is ungodly good, and at that point Rake is better (IMO) because you're going to be sneak attacking a lot.
If the party comp supports it (two melee bros), a whip rogue with Gang Up is ungodly good, and at that point Rake is better (IMO) because you're going to be sneak attacking a lot.
I have a Barbarian, Cleric (non-melee type), and Arcanist, so will rarely have two bros in melee with me.
Uh, you can get free intimidate checks with attacks with a feat and then break the game rules of imtimidate with Thug. On top of that, Thug has a "drop 1d6 to add a no save debuff" to the victim.
There's not even a little contest; Thug is a better archetype, it is one of the best rogue archetypes out there.
I'm leaning that direction as well. The extra feat and nonlethal damage both hurt, though.
Also the repeatable +5 to intimidate checks is awfully tempting! Give up all the sneak attack dice, and my intimidation is basically unbeatable. +10 at level 3, +20 at level 7, +30 at level 9...
I did something similar to this a while back, but went for the half-orc two-handed style instead for Intimidating Prowess, cornugon smash and surprise follow through. It's worth looking at Dazzling Display and Shatter Defences if you're considering this (and haven't already), as the memorable trait and dastardly finish. It's always hilarious to open a fight by making everyone scared with no save.
Also, don't worry about non-lethal damage. Luckily, Sap Adept and Sap Master are things. (And you get to have prisoners/pets if that's something you like to have)
The main issue you might have is that it's not clear how the skill unlock for intimidate works combined with Thug. The (basically) guaranteed frighten on one hit per creature is nifty, but it can sometimes be annoying not giving them shaken as well. Long term the intimidate skill unlock will be better than the Thug's ability, especially with the number of attacks you'll be making.
But, that's beside the point. The Thug is easily the better at intimidation since it can give frightened so easily, and sickened beats shaken for a debuff, and getting both (which you'll have) is better yet.
For the record, my half-orc was able to just always intimidate everything for basically the whole fight, right from level 1, and Intimidate scales pretty well. The extra stacking +5 from rake isn't necessary. Funny, but not necessary.
I'm leaning that direction as well. The extra feat and nonlethal damage both hurt, though.
Get a +1 Merciful weapon. It does an extra 1d6 damage and all damage is non-lethal.
Note that Nonlethal-Damage has this to say...:
If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.
With all that non-lethal damage, you can easily do double their max HP since you can double your sneak attack, and the Merciful adds another 1d6.
/cevah
You count as your own bro for gang up, meaning you need only one other PC threatening your foe, because you are always your own ally too. Once you threaten 10 feet with the whip and don´t take penalties from standing behind your barbarian for cover with the phalanx formation feat, you can flank them from safety.
Emm...
I rather doubt Paizo would ever confirm that reading of the feat.
I'm aware of the previous rulings of you counting as your own ally,
but trying to apply literal wording of ad-hoc rulings just doesn't make sense here...
For one, if you take that reading, then you are considered to be flanking an enemy if two allies of yours are threatening it... even if you are on the opposite side of the planet from the enemy. The feat only makes sense if read as "you and two of your allies...". You may count as an ally for purposes of effects that affect allies, but you don't count as two separate people, yourself and your ally, you are only one person.
EDIT: OR: You are very large creature, 3x3 squares, a small creature is within your squares in the center: Are you flanking the creature all by yourself, "since you count as your own ally"??
Emm...
I rather doubt Paizo would ever confirm that reading of the feat.
I'm aware of the previous rulings of you counting as your own ally,
but trying to apply literal wording of ad-hoc rulings just doesn't make sense here...
For one, if you take that reading, then you are considered to be flanking an enemy if two allies of yours are threatening it... even if you are on the opposite side of the planet from the enemy. The feat only makes sense if read as "you and two of your allies...". You may count as an ally for purposes of effects that affect allies, but you don't count as two separate people, yourself and your ally, you are only one person.
EDIT: OR: You are very large creature, 3x3 squares, a small creature is within your squares in the center: Are you flanking the creature all by yourself, "since you count as your own ally"??
Flanking is melee only so your first example is kinda ridiculous.
The very large creature bit is stretching it. Flanking requires two folks atleast so you'd need another ally on one side to trace to.
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies.".
What gang up does for you essentially is that you don´t need to stand in a line flanking the foe, but you can stand behind each other or next to each other and get flanking.
Nope that doesn´t mean you can use teamwork feats alone with gang up.
You still need a second PC having the feat for that.
Or with the inquisitor, another PC to trigger your solo tactics ability.
You do count as your own ally, what gives you the benefit of gang-up when there is another ally threatening the foe, but you don´t count double, so you´ll never be flanking alone.
(Except with teleport abilities and the dimensional feat line.)
Thanks for all the advice!
I've decided to go with the Thug archetype, and use the Enforcer feat to get free intimidate rolls. Eventually I'll pick up Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses.
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Thug it's no save. They're just frightened if you roll 20+HD+WisB or better. So you get: +2 trait, +2 race, +2 competence (ioun stone), +3 familiar, +3 or 4 ChaB. Ranks = HD unless it's the BBG. So your looking for a 7+WisB. Most of the time this will be a 10. You can take another trait/ feat to always take 10 on intimidate. And you can also skill focus for another +3 /+6. By the time you're at a 10th level unlock, every opponent not immune to mind effecting effects or fear is running. 30' dazzling display = no save.
Feat out/longarm your whip master and you can threaten 10-20 feet, which means AoOs as they run away. Sure, you don't get sneak attack unless you're flanking. But with 20' reach/threat, you'll be flanking a lot. Or shadow of fear it up and hit them all as they run away for sneak attack. (Depending on how you read it)
On one hand, it is good to see that people use the search function.
However, the date of the post IS there.