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Nothing. Dyeing feathers is explicitly stated to be something tengu do themselves.
I realize that no drow is a thing, but when you start ranting about yellow tengu you make PFS look like a stick in the mud, by the numbers, organization that's bureaucratic to the point of self parody in order to stifle fun.
If you REALLY get pedantic
Actually, yellow Tengu are a big one to consider.
As I stated before, there is no legal source for dye.
However, it's not uncommon for people to have characters with outlandish hair colors in PFS and for such things to be simply hand waived.
The same goes for armor and clothing: there's no upcharge in an item's price for it's color.
It's just assumed that you can get whatever color you desire.Now, feathers can be dyed.
If a Taldan can have red hair (while by the books they do not), then they must be coloring their hair.
What is to prevent a tengu from bleaching and dying their feathers?
What happens to birds when you do that? It can be lethal. I don't believe that feathers are dead matter like human hair or fur.
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Actually, yellow Tengu are a big one to consider.
As I stated before, there is no legal source for dye.
However, it's not uncommon for people to have characters with outlandish hair colors in PFS and for such things to be simply hand waived.
The same goes for armor and clothing: there's no upcharge in an item's price for it's color.
It's just assumed that you can get whatever color you desire.Now, feathers can be dyed.
If a Taldan can have red hair (while by the books they do not), then they must be coloring their hair.
What is to prevent a tengu from bleaching and dying their feathers?
Oooh I just might use my boon to make the first ever Golarion Chickenhawk...with green feathers.....tengu im no tengu im a chickenhawk and I aint afraid of nutin'
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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(Is this the point in the discussion where I remind people that the issue wasn't a player who wanted his tengu PC to dye its feathers, but rather a player who wanted, specifically, a tengu who was naturally and permanently yellow?)
Regarding the drow-colored elf PC, I suppose I would want to ask the player about her reasons for such a character. How familiar is she with Golarion? How does she justify the pseudo-drow nature?
"My mentor met drow while working for the Society, and researched the race. From the day I came of age, I have trained to be a spy, to infiltrate drow society, and I may yet do so when I've learned better how to swing a sword."
"Not a drow. I'm actually a dhampyr with pointy ears. Don't fret it; everybody makes that mistake."
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What happens to birds when you do that? It can be lethal. I don't believe that feathers are dead matter like human hair or fur.
Full grown feathers are actually dead matter, similar to human hair and fur.
As far as I can tell in a few quick searches, dying feathers on living birds is generally discouraged due to how the bird may react to being a different color, an issue a sentient race would not have.Nothing. Dyeing feathers is explicitly stated to be something tengu do themselves.
I realize that no drow is a thing, but when you start ranting about yellow tengu you make PFS look like a stick in the mud, by the numbers, organization that's bureaucratic to the point of self parody in order to stifle fun.
If you REALLY get pedantic
Hide dye won't work because Tengu are Humanoids.
And I'm not saying that PFS is a ultra rules stick-in-the-mud.
I'm making the point that it isn't; that there are always corner cases and that Piggate did not close off the discussion of what is description and what is reskinning.
It just gets messy because there's tons of players playing with tons of DMs all working with the same rules set and everyone having *their* idea of what is right.
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(Is this the point in the discussion where I remind people that the issue wasn't a player who wanted his tengu PC to dye its feathers, but rather a player who wanted, specifically, a tengu who was naturally and permanently yellow?)
Not actually knowing that it was a specific story, this is actually news to me.
I can readily see the arguments against it, and honestly, I'd even argue against it myself.However, I also don't see much of the point in doing so.
I mean, albinism, melanism, and other freak genetic mutations do exist, so it's not that much of a stretch.
Regarding the drow-colored elf PC, I suppose I would want to ask the player about her reasons for such a character. How familiar is she with Golarion? How does she justify the pseudo-drow nature?
This is honestly the best question to put forward, and probably the right way to go about it.
However, the unfortunate fact of the matter at convention play there isn't necessarily time to handle that.
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I still haven't had a good chance to use mine, actually.Yeah, it was hard enough finding another person with that boon, to choose the effect, when they were less than a year old...If you want a PC that looks like a visual 'drow'.
There is a boon I've held on to for a while. it will give you the permanent skin tone and nothing else.
I used mine and got a yellow-skinned Calistrian Halfling with black hair, riding a giant wasp. That was a weaker cavalier charge style build that was quite fun to play around with. The medium sized mount made things rather interesting.
"Oh, no, the wasp is very well trained and very quiet as well. I kinda need it's help to get books on the higher shelves in the library."
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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Paizo and Pathfinder Society do not endorse discrimination of any sort. The organized play program endeavors to provide as positive a gaming experience as possible, where players can feel welcome regardless of their age, disability, ethnicity, gender, race, religion, or sexuality. Likewise, we support and welcome characters representing that same wealth of diversity brought together under the structure of the in-game Pathfinder Society.
The Pathfinder Society team updates the Additional Resources page as new material is published to introduce new options while maintaining the setting's lore. This includes limiting the proliferation of some fantasy races in the organized play campaign—sometimes for use as special rewards. In the setting, many surface-dwelling people are unaware of the drow, though the publication of Volume 44 of the Pathfinder Chronicles has provided a channel for some to learn of these renegade elves; even after nearly a decade, the limited means of corroborating the author's findings might cast these findings in the realm of fantasy rather than fact in the public eye. Although some drow have reached the surface, their numbers remain limited, dispersed, and prone to evil. In recognition of this, campaign staff continue to uphold that it's not appropriate at this time to introduce drow options in the campaign except through Chronicle sheets (likely those tied to a scenario involving the drow). Barring a recent slip-up of mine slated for correction, that has been the ongoing stance.
For a while, the team has been batting around a few broad-strokes FAQ entries to which the answer is essentially "No." One is "I've found a loophole that allows me to get infinite gold. Does it work?" Another is "I've found an exploit that allows me to reap infinite power. Does it work?" It might be time for us to add to the list "I've found a way to beat the reskinning rules and make my character look/function as a drow. Is that okay?”
Finally, to answer the original poster's question, no, a GM should not decide that a character's skin is too dark to be legal for play. Likewise a player should not decide to push the boundaries of drow-ness.
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Well, if you want to get this changed quick, find that "A GM may, at his own discretion, decide that a character's skin is too dark to be legal for play" quote and put it on facebook as an official Paizo stance....Might get yourself kicked, but they'd address it quickly.
As the director of how content and interaction is managed on our Facebook page (and other official outlets), that's a really uncool suggestion. We certainly attempt to answer questions and concerns via social media, but have a very firm policy of not answering rules questions or providing official clarifications in those venues. The idea that someone would do this really sounds as though they'd be gaming our ability to provide community support and customer service for personal gain. That behavior can totally derail our ability to do our jobs (depending on the severity), and is ultimately toxic for our community.
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Paizo has creative control of content. I understand and respect that so the question of playing a drow or half drow of a drow look-alike is settled unless Paizo at some future date changes its mind.
As to why would anyone want to play a drow. This is a fantasy game in which people get to play all sorts of mythical races. Why does anyone want to play an asimaar, tiefling, kitsune or wayang. Because they're cool and different. I have played at tables with more than half the table being supposedly rare asimaars.
And it not unique to drow. If Paizo legalized goblins for PFS there would instantly be legions of goblins lining up at the Grand Lodge to join the society.
BTW: The 2nd sentence on drow in the Advanced Race Guide states that drow are not born evil so the possibility of renegade non-evil drow exists, perhaps as a future boon. (I know, just wishful thinking)
Morag
Contributor
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Morag, the Advanced Race Guide is Pathfinder generic. Golarion Drow are born evil.
This is not precisely correct. Based on Inner Sea Races, it would be more accurate to say that Golarion's drow are raised from birth to be as ruthless and evil as possible, destroying any sense of compassion, and that those who seek to turn from this path almost never survive. However, they do not have the same ingrained evil as, say, a demon or other evil outsider.
That said, they are still not appropriate as a PFS race, unless at the rarity level of goblin or charity boon.
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Hello everyone. I was wondering if I could have some help on whether my character is A-OK in light of the "no reskinning" thing. My character Simon Dragonar is supposed to be very distantly Silver Dragon-blooded, and has certain minor physical traits to that effect. There is no mechanical benefit at all, but he has silver streaks in his hair and blue eyes like a Silver. No wings or claws or anything crazy.
He is a Bard/Ranger/Paladin right now but fingers crossed he will be a Bard/Ranger/Paladin/Monk/Swashbuckler. I had read about Bards and Sorcerers (though mainly Sorcerers) usually having some sort of special bloodline in their backstories, and I saw traits to that effect like Blood of Dragons, Fiend Blood, and Deathtouched. That's what inspired me to make him so long ago.
The issue I see is that I only read the trait when I was browsing rule books at my local game store. I couldn't afford the book with it at the time so I chose other traits I had access to. I have long since bought that book, but you can't retrain traits. Is all that ok? I'm a little concerned, because I don't want him to be against any rules. Thank you! :)
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Hello everyone. I was wondering if I could have some help on whether my character is A-OK in light of the "no reskinning" thing. My character Simon Dragonar is supposed to be very distantly Silver Dragon-blooded, and has certain minor physical traits to that effect. There is no mechanical benefit at all, but he has silver streaks in his hair and blue eyes like a Silver. No wings or claws or anything crazy.
He is a Bard/Ranger/Paladin right now but fingers crossed he will be a Bard/Ranger/Paladin/Monk/Swashbuckler. I had read about Bards and Sorcerers (though mainly Sorcerers) usually having some sort of special bloodline in their backstories, and I saw traits to that effect like Blood of Dragons, Fiend Blood, and Deathtouched. That's what inspired me to make him so long ago.
The issue I see is that I only read the trait when I was browsing rule books at my local game store. I couldn't afford the book with it at the time so I chose other traits I had access to. I have long since bought that book, but you can't retrain traits. Is all that ok? I'm a little concerned, because I don't want him to be against any rules. Thank you! :)
I can only speak for me, but no I don't see any problem with those choices. Additionally, as nosig pointed out there is the option for Extra traits as a feat (which I've used before).
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Seriously, why is this even an issue.
Because some people like to find ways to bend the rules to their whim. Several of my RL friends are like this and I have not brought them into PFS because of it, just dealing with their shenanigans in home games.
Edit: Is not that they would even want to play Drow, it's only because the rules say they can't.
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But Drizz't needs attention, woe! woe onto those that seek to burden my earthly form in an unworthy vessel.
Verily.
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Meowth sayeth I
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What if my elf is literally tattooed black from head to toe? :p
Seriously, why is this even an issue. Rules say don't play drow, so don't try and figure out a way to play a drow.
Seriously.
No Drow. No bending the rules for Drow. No reskinning for Drow. No loopholes for Drow. Stop asking for Drow. NO. EFFING. DROW.
/sigh
Most of the Drizz't books weren't all that good anyway.
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I can only speak for me, but no I don't see any problem with those choices. Additionally, as nosig pointed out there is the option for Extra traits as a feat (which I've used before).Hello everyone. I was wondering if I could have some help on whether my character is A-OK in light of the "no reskinning" thing. My character Simon Dragonar is supposed to be very distantly Silver Dragon-blooded, and has certain minor physical traits to that effect. There is no mechanical benefit at all, but he has silver streaks in his hair and blue eyes like a Silver. No wings or claws or anything crazy.
He is a Bard/Ranger/Paladin right now but fingers crossed he will be a Bard/Ranger/Paladin/Monk/Swashbuckler. I had read about Bards and Sorcerers (though mainly Sorcerers) usually having some sort of special bloodline in their backstories, and I saw traits to that effect like Blood of Dragons, Fiend Blood, and Deathtouched. That's what inspired me to make him so long ago.
The issue I see is that I only read the trait when I was browsing rule books at my local game store. I couldn't afford the book with it at the time so I chose other traits I had access to. I have long since bought that book, but you can't retrain traits. Is all that ok? I'm a little concerned, because I don't want him to be against any rules. Thank you! :)
First, let me express the company line about being careful with any reskinning. Other than claiming mechanical benefit, one reason to rule against reskinning is that we don't know what will be created in the future. Before Ultimate Combat, it was accepted to call a Bastard Sword a Katana. But after, does that characters sword suddenly take on all the differences? No. We don't know if some future ancient ancestral dragon blood thing is going to be created.
All that said, if you just have a few streaks of Silver hair and blue eyes, something that is in the range of both human and elf possibility, then it shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't actually claim true dragon ancestry. The semantics line is thin here. But if you just say there is a family rumor of Dragon blood and I got the useless hair! That should be fine.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Oooh I just might use my boon to make the first ever Golarion Chickenhawk...with green feathers.....tengu im no tengu im a chickenhawk and I aint afraid of nutin'
I've threatened our local group with a Falcata wielding kirtsune swashbuckler, who raised as a taldan orphan knows nothing about being a kitsune. When he adopts his (un)natural form he's not taking on his fox shape. Rather he's embracing his true nature...
... as a were Chihuahua. :-)
"Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
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Oooh I just might use my boon to make the first ever Golarion Chickenhawk...with green feathers.....tengu im no tengu im a chickenhawk and I aint afraid of nutin'I've threatened our local group with a Falcata wielding kirtsune swashbuckler, who raised as a taldan orphan knows nothing about being a kitsune. When he adopts his (un)natural form he's not taking on his fox shape. Rather he's embracing his true nature...
... as a were Chihuahua. :-)
"Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
Is this a reference to Naruto or Inuyasha or something else?
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Oooh I just might use my boon to make the first ever Golarion Chickenhawk...with green feathers.....tengu im no tengu im a chickenhawk and I aint afraid of nutin'I've threatened our local group with a Falcata wielding kirtsune swashbuckler, who raised as a taldan orphan knows nothing about being a kitsune. When he adopts his (un)natural form he's not taking on his fox shape. Rather he's embracing his true nature...
... as a were Chihuahua. :-)
"Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
How is this a threat? "If you guys don't straighten up I'm going to make a hilariously awesome character."
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How is this a threat? "If you guys don't straighten up I'm going to make a hilariously awesome character."Oooh I just might use my boon to make the first ever Golarion Chickenhawk...with green feathers.....tengu im no tengu im a chickenhawk and I aint afraid of nutin'I've threatened our local group with a Falcata wielding kirtsune swashbuckler, who raised as a taldan orphan knows nothing about being a kitsune. When he adopts his (un)natural form he's not taking on his fox shape. Rather he's embracing his true nature...
... as a were Chihuahua. :-)
"Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
Must be a local thing <wink>
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BTW: The 2nd sentence on drow in the Advanced Race Guide states that drow are not born evil so the possibility of renegade non-evil drow exists, perhaps as a future boon. (I know, just wishful thinking)Morag
Thank you for pointing that out. Our group will be grabbing the thickest, heaviest Sharpie and making sure those words never see the light of day ever again.
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If you want to add a trait (or two) after first level, you would always take the Feat (Extra Traits) - which gives the PC two additional Traits (as long as the trait doesn't require you to take it at first level...).
just an idea
I can only speak for me, but no I don't see any problem with those choices. Additionally, as nosig pointed out there is the option for Extra traits as a feat (which I've used before).
Thank you! I don't mean to derail things with too many rules questions, so I apologize in advance! Is Additional Traits one of the feats you can take multiple times?
First, let me express the company line about being careful with any reskinning. Other than claiming mechanical benefit, one reason to rule against reskinning is that we don't know what will be created in the future. Before Ultimate Combat, it was accepted to call a Bastard Sword a Katana. But after, does that characters sword suddenly take on all the differences? No. We don't know if some future ancient ancestral dragon blood thing is going to be created.All that said, if you just have a few streaks of Silver hair and blue eyes, something that is in the range of both human and elf possibility, then it shouldn't be a problem as...
Yes, that is the extent of it for him. Well, he also has a righteous desire for Justice! Just like Silver Dragons. I would be ok if he merely claims it as his ancestry, rather than 100% confirmed. He wouldn't actually lie about it since he's a Paladin too, but he doesn't necessarily have to be correct. I am very sorry if I was accidentally reskinning before.
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If you want to add a trait (or two) after first level, you would always take the Feat (Extra Traits) - which gives the PC two additional Traits (as long as the trait doesn't require you to take it at first level...).
just an idea
I can only speak for me, but no I don't see any problem with those choices. Additionally, as nosig pointed out there is the option for Extra traits as a feat (which I've used before).Thank you! I don't mean to derail things with too many rules questions, so I apologize in advance! Is Additional Traits one of the feats you can take multiple times?
Yes, that is the extent of it for him. Well, he also has a righteous desire for Justice! Just like Silver Dragons. I would be ok if he merely claims it as his ancestry, rather than 100% confirmed. He wouldn't actually lie about it since he's a Paladin too, but he doesn't necessarily have to be correct. I am very sorry if I was accidentally reskinning before.
First, let me express the company line about being careful with any reskinning. Other than claiming mechanical benefit, one reason to rule against reskinning is that we don't know what will be created in the future. Before Ultimate Combat, it was accepted to call a Bastard Sword a Katana. But after, does that characters sword suddenly take on all the differences? No. We don't know if some future ancient ancestral dragon blood thing is going to be created.All that said, if you just have a few streaks of Silver hair and blue eyes, something that is in the range of both human and elf possibility, then it shouldn't be a problem as...
No worries. In the grand scheme of things you weren't trying to get away with anything and have a really cool backstory for your character.
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Hello everyone. I was wondering if I could have some help on whether my character is A-OK in light of the "no reskinning" thing. My character Simon Dragonar is supposed to be very distantly Silver Dragon-blooded, and has certain minor physical traits to that effect. There is no mechanical benefit at all, but he has silver streaks in his hair and blue eyes like a Silver. No wings or claws or anything crazy.
He is a Bard/Ranger/Paladin right now but fingers crossed he will be a Bard/Ranger/Paladin/Monk/Swashbuckler. I had read about Bards and Sorcerers (though mainly Sorcerers) usually having some sort of special bloodline in their backstories, and I saw traits to that effect like Blood of Dragons, Fiend Blood, and Deathtouched. That's what inspired me to make him so long ago.
The issue I see is that I only read the trait when I was browsing rule books at my local game store. I couldn't afford the book with it at the time so I chose other traits I had access to. I have long since bought that book, but you can't retrain traits. Is all that ok? I'm a little concerned, because I don't want him to be against any rules. Thank you! :)
Look at the feat Eldritch Heritage which gives you powers from a sorcerer's bloodline. It could be draconic, and you could choose silver from that.
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Is Additional Traits one of the feats you can take multiple times?
The Conservative answer to this question is "No", while the Liberal answer is "Yes". Needless to say, there's some disagreement.
On the one hand, there isn't a clause stating that you may take the feat multiple times. On the other hand, there are no "stacking" issues if you did take the feat twice.
For PFS, I'd advise going with the Conservative answer. There are also a few Boons out there that can net you an additional trait, and in some cases you can even get a couple of them on the same character.
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Thanks for all the suggestions! I am considering retraining feats I already have (that are not prereqs) into Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage stuff, then dip into Bonus Feat classes to replace them. Namely 2nd level of Ranger and 2 levels of Fighter. That would give me enough feats to get Greater Eldritch Heritage for Wings by level 19. It really fits my character and my main weakness right now is my lack of access to Flight (Other than Potions).
Anyway, I digress! Sorry about bringing up another topic. I remember hearing something about Pig Gate before, but this is the first time I saw the whole story as it could relate to my treasured Seeker character. :)
Is Additional Traits one of the feats you can take multiple times?The Conservative answer to this question is "No", while the Liberal answer is "Yes". Needless to say, there's some disagreement.
On the one hand, there isn't a clause stating that you may take the feat multiple times. On the other hand, there are no "stacking" issues if you did take the feat twice.
For PFS, I'd advise going with the Conservative answer. There are also a few Boons out there that can net you an additional trait, and in some cases you can even get a couple of them on the same character.
The rules answer is that you can only take a feat once unless the feat itself specifically states that you can take it multiple times.
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The rules answer is that you can only take a feat once unless the feat itself specifically states that you can take it multiple times.Is Additional Traits one of the feats you can take multiple times?The Conservative answer to this question is "No", while the Liberal answer is "Yes". Needless to say, there's some disagreement.
On the one hand, there isn't a clause stating that you may take the feat multiple times. On the other hand, there are no "stacking" issues if you did take the feat twice.
For PFS, I'd advise going with the Conservative answer. There are also a few Boons out there that can net you an additional trait, and in some cases you can even get a couple of them on the same character.
I think the point of contention is that there isn't a rule that actually says that. Seriously, try to find it. There was a thread on this a little while back, and nobody there could find it, so it probably doesn't exist.
Not that you would ever rely on it getting run that way at a real table, mind you.
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Snowblind is correct. The only rule we have to go off of is this:
If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
As I said earlier, one of the points of contention is the use of the word "stack". We know what "stack" means in Pathfinder, and it almost always only refers to numerical bonuses (and sometimes conditions). The Additional Traits feat doesn't interact with either of those rules for stacking, and hence people argue that you can take the feat multiple times.
This quote also suggests that it is possible to have the same feat more than once, by simple nature of the phrase "If a character has the same feat more than once".
But, for PFS, it's usually best to simply go with the more conservative argument in order to just avoid the trouble all together.