Some background, I intend to play a warpriest of Pharasma in an upcoming campaign and the question came up of how I would tolerate a friendly undead who was possibly cursed or otherwise to continue living. Looking at Pharasma it appears that I'm not allowed to tolerate undead no matter the circumstance. So, I figured that it would just have to be the way Pharasma intends and I would have to try my best to lay the undead to rest, possibly convincing them that the afterlife is better for his kind or something else like that. But, in the instance that it is a friendly or otherwise good undead who doesn't want to die what then? Its a difficult question and depends on the circumstances for normal characters but as a warpriest I still have to obey the holy duty of laying dead to rest.
TL;DR: How would a warpriest of Pharasma deal with a good undead who doesn't want to die?
If you're feeling benevolent, you might let them get their affairs in order, but yeah, true death is the only acceptable end result.
Though that makes me wonder: what is Pharasma's position on resurrection spells?
Generally, she is cool with people who died before their time being returned, as long as they have not been judged yet. Note that even true resurrection cannot bring someone back if they died from old age, so if your time is up, it's up. I think raise dead was mentioned to no longer work if the soul has already been judged by Pharasma, but since her plane has time working... differently, just how long that takes is hard to tell.
As for undead who do not want to die yet - a cleric of Pharasma should do everything possible to ensure they change their mind, and if that doesn´t work, they are supposed to use force. Mind you, the Carrion Crown AP mentions that in extreme situations, this can be postponed (i.e. in the case of cooperating against a greater threat). However, if there are no extreme external factors... well, undead are an abomination against Pharasma's position and duties, and as her chosen representatives her clergy must take care of it.
That's generally what I thought, it is pretty clear in her description that she abhors them. Alright, I had kinda figured against a greater threat makes it okay but in the long run circumstances don't matter undead is undead and you have to go. So what would happen if the priest of Pharasma was in a position that they couldn't take care of the undead? (crazy example) like an undead warrior well loved by the people or something similar? I figure same thing the priest would have to deal with it but how if they aren't powerful enough/would be considered a criminal? I assume this is where the "lawful stupid" of being divine comes into play, i'm fine with that, deities are supposed to be all about stalwart ideals to uphold and i mean the example I gave is not exactly something thats going to happen (well, I guess I never know)
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Keep in mind that Paizo is generally of a mind that 99.99% of undead are evil. So the dilemma you're worrying about should be rare.
That said, Pharasma is neither good, nice, nor does she need to play fair to get her will done. If you're up against a popular undead, you're allowed to conduct a smear campaign for example.
Well, if they can change public opinion, they should - veneration of an undead is pretty much a blasphemy against Pharasma, and thus something that should be addressed in its own right. If that is not possible, and the cleric cannot act to cast down this undead, they should call for help from the church outside - as an ordained cleric of Pharasma you are a part of a pretty big and influential organization, which can also call on Pharasma´s outsider servants. Just how ruthlessly or discretely the Pharasmin address the matter is up to their own judgement and the teachings of their particular order. A NG and a NE inquisitor may handle the same situation differently despite following the same code, after all.
Anyway, as a member of the cult it is perfectly okay to call for aid if you cannot handle the situation yourself. That is why you have an organized religion, after all :) . It could be that your superiors decide to let the matter be for the time being and focus on bigger problems elsewhere, but if they do have the manpower and time, they will respond.
Don´t worry too much about being considered a criminal, even if your character is lawful. If you are a devotee of Pharasma favored enough to work miracles by Her will, Hers is the law that matters most to you.
If for some reason it is beyond your ability to safely destroy an Undead, you are not required to commit stupid or self endangering acts fruitlessly.
A dead warpriest is one less servant to do her will.
If you can't kill the individual now, make note of it and plan to return at a later time to do the bidding of your mistress.
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The VERY rare good undead are all going to have some mission that is why they are undead. If you are of evil or probably even neutral alignment, you probably just kill them because Pharasma says so. If you are of good alignment, you probably help them finish their mission and then give them a quick, clean end. If they are truly good, they do not wish to be undead and will be grateful for such an end as soon as their important mission is taken care of.
The only undead that I know of that does not become evil is the ghost, and even that is rare,
When a soul is not allowed to rest due to some great injustice, either real or perceived, it sometimes comes back as a ghost. Such beings are in eternal anguish, lacking in substance and unable to set things right. Although ghosts can be any alignment, the majority cling to the living world out of a powerful sense of rage and hatred, and as a result are chaotic evil—even the ghost of a good or lawful creature can become hateful and cruel in its afterlife.
It even states that if you set right what is preventing it from resting it is permanently destroyed.
Rejuvenation (Su): In most cases, it's difficult to destroy a ghost through simple combat: the "destroyed" spirit restores itself in 2d4 days. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. The only way to permanently destroy a ghost is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research, and should be created specifically for each different ghost by the GM.
I would say that a worshiper of Pharasma would have no choice to figure out what needs to be done to destroy a ghost. Letting the ghost “live” would be about the greatest sin that a worshiper could ever do.
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The only other non-evil undead I know of are from:
** spoiler omitted **
There are, as mentioned, several Good ghosts various places, and Neutral vampires aren't uncommon (okay, they're uncommon, just not ridiculously so).
And Pharasma doesn't really care how you get rid of undead, just that you do. So helping a ghost find closure is a pretty reasonable strategy, for example.
to the church of Pharasma there is no such thing as friendly undead, all are abominations and must be destroyed
Generally, she is cool with people who died before their time being returned, as long as they have not been judged yet. Note that even true resurrection cannot bring someone back if they died from old age, so if your time is up, it's up. I think raise dead was mentioned to no longer work if the soul has already been judged by Pharasma, but since her plane has time working... differently, just how long that takes is hard to tell.If you're feeling benevolent, you might let them get their affairs in order, but yeah, true death is the only acceptable end result.
Though that makes me wonder: what is Pharasma's position on resurrection spells?
Mask of the Mummy volume 6 has an article on the progression of souls. Pharasma in her role of fate knows which souls are destined to be raised (and presumably who deserve it) and doesn't judge them prematurely.
TL;DR: How would a warpriest of Pharasma deal with a good undead who doesn't want to die?
Luckily undead aren't going to die. They already have. At this point, they just need to be destroyed. Death has already happened, so just like everyone else their wishes to not die don't really matter.
What if you're raising a necromancer?Mask of the Mummy volume 6 has an article on the progression of souls. Pharasma in her role of fate knows which souls are destined to be raised (and presumably who deserve it) and doesn't judge them prematurely.Generally, she is cool with people who died before their time being returned, as long as they have not been judged yet. Note that even true resurrection cannot bring someone back if they died from old age, so if your time is up, it's up. I think raise dead was mentioned to no longer work if the soul has already been judged by Pharasma, but since her plane has time working... differently, just how long that takes is hard to tell.If you're feeling benevolent, you might let them get their affairs in order, but yeah, true death is the only acceptable end result.
Though that makes me wonder: what is Pharasma's position on resurrection spells?
why would a priest of Pharasma raise a necromancer?
It's still their fate. Not all necromancer are evil, for that matter.
The more likely issue will be that someone plays a necromancer and everyone at the table is annoyed at the constant bickering and purposeful killing of the created undead. Its hard to this to end well ...
Actually as far as i'm aware none of the others are divines and I have asked about undead, nobody plans on playing one or using them so there isn't going to be inter party conflict. (if there was I wouldn't play someone dedicated to stopping the one thing necromancers do) but our campaign will have something to do with a long gone goddess so religious beings will probably come into play including undead.
While i'm at it, is there any particular thing I should shoot for as a Pharasman warpriest using a scythe? I know it's not optimal but the scythe has some interesting quirks I like, for one I would like to use trip and the scythe has trip as a quality. 2d4 x4 damage/crit is pretty cool too, crits are basically a death sentence.
First, Scythes are the sacred weapon of Urgathoa, Goddess of undeath, and Pharasma's only true enemy among the main pantheon.
Second, Warpriests generally try to take advantage of high crit low damage weapons because of their scaling damage dice ability.
If you're dead set on using a Scythe anyway you could try a Vital Strike + Devestating Strike build. Trip is certainly viable, make people provoke AoOs like crazy, although it'd be better with a reach weapon. If you're a Warpriest, you can pursue basically any style of combat a Fighter would with little trouble.
This makes me want to play a Pharasmin spiritualist who sees it as his goddess forsaking him:
"Lady of Graves, what did I do to deserve this?""But I love the living, and I just want to help you."
"Stop haunting me, evil spawn of the void!"
But the companion is an Outsider with the Phantom subtype. They're not technically undead.*
*But I think that's only because it would be too beneficial to give a companion the defensive bonuses from being Undead.
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@op
People are free to believe what they want. Deities don't meddle to much into their business, instead, they offer their teachings and tenets of faith. Pharasma is a neutral deity. She might despise undead due to their nature of avoiding her judgment day on the Boneyard, but that doesn't mean she would pidgeonhole her worshipers into assaulting every undead creature on the Golarion. In some cases, it might prove counterproductive even in the larger picture.
If this was a homecampaign, as a GM, I would allow you as much free will as you need. It's however better to describe what tenets of her faith you are following the most. There is wide range of Pharasmists out there after all. Once you start to cross the line of your private tenets which you declared before the game, that's when I would start to worry.
Adam
is there an expanded description of pharasma and pharasman worship somewhere? all i've seen are 1 paragraph descriptions
is there an expanded description of pharasma and pharasman worship somewhere? all i've seen are 1 paragraph descriptions
Inner Sea Gods and one of the chapters for Carrion Crown has a section on her
Inner Sea Gods and one of the chapters for Carrion Crown has a section on her
Trial of the Beast, the second Carrion Crown module.
@Tim Statler - "Ashes at Dawn" has a sidebar mentioning the issue. Basically the idea is that Pharasma doesn't have to be lawful stupid about this - as the sort of goddess of fate she understands that certain problems cannot be solved immediately and one should keep the bigger picture in mind. However, eventually she gets to the details :) .
The PF Tales novel "Bloodbound" authored by F. Wesley Schneider features this dilemma as a major plot point. I didn't really care for the actual writing style all that much but it might be an interesting read for you.